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Posted: 6/26/2003 12:01:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 12:06:47 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
[url]www.isayeret.com[/url] has been updated lately. And in the new Miscellanious weapons sections its noted that in the last two years the IDF has started buying and issuing Franchi SPAS-15 shotguns to be used as both a crowd control and breeching tool. This introduction parallels the one in our forces of the Benelli M490/M1014 Joint Service Shotgun. The Army and Marine after action reports we have recieved both state that while the M1014 is a good functioning weapon it is longer and heavier than needed for breaching ops and was never designed to handle low pressure less than lethal rounds that have been getting used heavily since open hostilities against the Iraqi goverment ended and crowd control became important. The Remington/Mossburg/Winchester pumps that the Benelli was supposed to replace are once again out on the street in order to use rubber shot and stun bags against crowds and ferret CS against barracaded supects. IDF soldiers and Israeli police on the other hand only have to change magazines and switch to pump action to go from blowing off locks and hinges with slugs to shooting riot control munitions against converging protesters. The one thing that the Franchi cant do that the Benelli can is mout a Aimpoint in its current configuration. However, if ordered in large enough numbers, how hard would it be to have Franchi mill a picitinny rail into the reciever handle? I am begining to think that we got a bum deal on the M1014. [img]http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/infantry/givaty/givaty-12.jpg[/img] Sayeret Givati commando at right is carrying folding stock SPAS 15 in pack scabbard with but visible over right shoulder. I cannot help think that this would be better than the Mossies and Remmies with the "7-11" pistol grip kit that have shown up a lot in pictures of house cleaning ops in Iraq as a breeching tool.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:19:42 PM EDT
The SPAS-15 is a MONSTER.but I was surpised that the US didn't adopt a detactable magazine shotgun like the AK.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:26:45 PM EDT
Are any of the AK models both semi AND pump action? That is the thing about the Franchi. In pump action mode it will fire low pressure/low velocity rounds that won't cycle the Benelli, and probably not the Sagia either.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:27:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 12:29:18 PM EDT by Guns_N_Shizzle]
nm
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:32:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: However, if ordered in large enough numbers, how hard would it be to have Franchi mill a picitinny rail into the reciever handle?
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Supposedly pretty hard. That was the reason the Benneli won the contract. If you mount a scope on a shotgun it can change the inertia enough that normal shotguns do not function. IIRC.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:41:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: However, if ordered in large enough numbers, how hard would it be to have Franchi mill a picitinny rail into the reciever handle?
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Supposedly pretty hard. That was the reason the Benneli won the contract. If you mount a scope on a shotgun it can change the inertia enough that normal shotguns do not function. IIRC.
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Both are gas operated not recoil. Inertia would not affect them. Also I am skeptical of the inertia claim. The M1/90 is tapped for scope mounts, lots of people have them or Black Eagles set up with scopes for deer hunting. The way I understand the Monfeltro system to work is that it required the the reciever to stay put while the bolt and carrier moved-i.e. it could be "limp wristed" but making its reciever heavier by putting a scope on it should actually reduce the chance of that happening. If the Benelli used the Browning short recoil method, with a reciprocating barrel, something mounted on the barrel or forend could screw up the cycling. But it doesn't. If the Monfeltro short recoil system works in the manner Benelli's literature claims it should not be negativily affected by changing the mass of the reciever or any of the other non-moving parts of the gun. I wasn't aware that our armed forces even considered the SPAS-15 this time.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 4:06:48 PM EDT
The M1S90 ifs far superior than the M1014. I cant even see the point of not using the M1S90. GG
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 5:22:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 10:04:06 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
The M1S90 is recoil-operated, and mounting devices on it inhibits its reliability
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Yeah that is the part that all the ads for the M4S90 claims. But if the discription given in the company literature about how the Monfeltro system is supposed to work is accurate it should not be happening. Anything that increases mass-and hence the inertia- of the non-moving parts of the gun should make it work better. It would be lightening the gun that should make it less reliable. Not making it heavier. Its a moot point since even the M1S90 cant fire LTL rounds except one at a time through the breech. That is where the SPAS-15s advantage is, to fire LTL rounds as a pump action repeter, and to change back to shooting slugs for breeching just by changing the magazine and moving the position of the foreend. I like the M3S90's forend better than the SPAS though. Shame no one brought out a box fed version fo the M3S90
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:23:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Are any of the AK models both semi AND pump action? That is the thing about the Franchi. In pump action mode it will fire low pressure/low velocity rounds that won't cycle the Benelli, and probably not the Sagia either.
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The only pump/auto i've used was the SPAS-12,The pump mod was a pain,but your right on the low power/specialty loads.The SEALs looked at the USAS-12 at one time, but didn't like the weight or bulk .
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:30:13 PM EDT
I had a SPAS-12 and ditched it in the late 80s for a M1S90. It was ungainly and heavy. I don't think the SPAS-15 is gonna be a great bargain either. Possibly Benelli should have developed the M4 as a convertable like the M3 for "special purpose" rounds.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:53:18 PM EDT
I don't think that the SPAS12 and SPAS15 use the same method of operation. The 12 was Browning-type recoil operated, the 15 is a gas operated piston with a rotating bolt. Now if you mean that Franchi's quality sucked that would be a different matter.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:59:40 PM EDT
[img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negev-7.jpg[/img] Is it just me or do the Izzies always seem to be pointing their guns at eachother! No muzzle discipline!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:00:55 PM EDT
How insightfull of us to design a new shotgun without the capability to fire the variety of projectiles we need to be using[rolleyes] Another waste of taxpayer money. I agree with Troy,the answer to a question that no one should have asked.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:16:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: I don't think that the SPAS12 and SPAS15 use the same method of operation. The 12 was Browning-type recoil operated, the 15 is a gas operated piston with a rotating bolt. Now if you mean that Franchi's quality sucked that would be a different matter.
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No mine was very built,just having work against the recoil spring was a chore and might lead to short stroking.my op anyway
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:29:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 4:40:17 AM EDT
the M-1014 is the schizznit. it is my new T.O. weapon and i can tell you with authority that it is the finest semi-auto combat shotgun....PERIOD. and im a scattergun snob. i have fired them all. every combat shotgun in US inventory and some from foriegn nations and the benelli far outclasses any other competitor.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 4:55:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFNG: [url]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/negev-7.jpg[/url] Is it just me or do the Izzies always seem to be pointing their guns at eachother! No muzzle discipline!
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I think living in Israel and especially in their military would be like living in Vietnam in 1970. "Who cares, I'll probably die soon anyway."
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 6:05:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Are any of the AK models both semi AND pump action? That is the thing about the Franchi. In pump action mode it will fire low pressure/low velocity rounds that won't cycle the Benelli, and probably not the Sagia either.
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It would seem that it would be easy enough to just pull back the charging handle. Ross
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:15:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
The M1S90 is recoil-operated, and mounting devices on it inhibits its reliability
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Yeah that is the part that all the ads for the M4S90 claims. But if the discription given in the company literature about how the Monfeltro system is supposed to work is accurate it should not be happening. Anything that increases mass-and hence the inertia- of the non-moving parts of the gun should make it work better. It would be lightening the gun that should make it less reliable. Not making it heavier. Its a moot point since even the M1S90 cant fire LTL rounds except one at a time through the breech. That is where the SPAS-15s advantage is, to fire LTL rounds as a pump action repeter, and to change back to shooting slugs for breeching just by changing the magazine and moving the position of the foreend. I like the M3S90's forend better than the SPAS though. Shame no one brought out a box fed version fo the M3S90
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Accessories add mass to the receiver, not the bolt. When the shotgun fires, the mass of the receiver works against the recoil. The ENTIRE M1S90 must move backward during recoil. The bolt stays forward during the initial recoil, so it's moving forward in relation to the breech and chamber. As soon as it's clear, it unlocks and springs backward with the rest of the shotgun. That's the action of the M1S90. If the shotgun doesn't move backward, there's a great chance that the bolt won't unlock and complete the ejection and feeding sequence. I tested this wity my M1S90 by putting the buttplate against a post and firing it down-range. Sure enough, the bolt didn't unlock and cycle the action. I had enough problems with the M1S90's system that I sold it and went back to my Remington 870. However, I will say that, when the action worked, it was FAST!
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:46:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2003 7:48:50 AM EDT by Zoub]
If one gun can do everything, then why do we own so many? Isn't that what anti-gun people usualy say to you? Shotguns fill more roles now. I don't think combat guns should be limited by the needs of Cops and MPs for an effective crowd control weapon. Why would you carry anything that is LESS than lethal into combat? The IDF walks a fine line between combat and cops everyday. Look how that has failed them. We do not want to fall in to that trap. 50 years later we are still in Korea I prefer to have Cops and MP's handling crowds. They are trained for it, regardless of the gun they are carrying. On the other hand, why do you really need optics on a combat shotgun? Slug sniper? So along comes the M1014, a semi-auto that can handle optics, most likely night vision equipment I suppose, so you can leave the Surefire off. That is a good thing. The best I have seen is the M1S90. The cleanest shotgun ever made. You could make the arguement that you never have to tear it down and clean it. To me it is as reliable as a pump but still gives you one handed follow up shots, unless you practice the terminator reloading method with a pump.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 8:58:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zoub: On the other hand, why do you really need optics on a combat shotgun? Slug sniper? So along comes the M1014, a semi-auto that can handle optics, most likely night vision equipment I suppose, so you can leave the Surefire off. That is a good thing.
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Also take into consideration the use of Eotech and Aimpoint type sights on weapons now a day. It is getting closer and closer to becoming standard issue. I have no experience but I think a M1014 would point very nicely with an Eotech [;)]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 9:21:33 AM EDT
If it werent for LTLs and breeching rounds there would be no need for a shotgun in military use anymore. While its bigger splatter may be psychologically comforting to the user, you are not more likely to hit someone than if you had a M4 or M16.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:04:16 PM EDT
USMC video of their new shotgun: [url]http://mcrsc.mfr.usmc.mil/usmc-hq/videos/yc/2002May/yc_mayshotgun.asf[/url]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:08:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 12:45:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: The M1S90 is recoil-operated, and mounting devices on it inhibits its reliability. Thus, it is unsuitable, and that's why Benelli made the M4 gas-operated. Personally, I never did understand how the military got talked into a SEMI-AUTO shotgun in the first place. Shotguns aren't used as primary weapons, so there's little need for quick follow-up shots. A 14" Mossberg 590A1 pump will do everything the military needs a shotgun for, is reliable, functions with all ammo, and can have rails installed easily. Hi-tech is not always the answer... -Troy
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Wrong. Troy. You dont know how it works. It works on the inertia. Meaning the more the shotgun stays still, the more reliable it is. Thus the more weight the more the weapon doesnt want to move. Everything takes place in the bolt. You can mount anything in the M1 and it will be fine. even a car battery. The new ones are tapped on the receiver, I wonder why. Old ones are not tapped because rails and stuff were not the fad untill reciently. GG
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 1:45:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2003 1:50:59 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Here is the page describing the cycle: [url]http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/inertia.tpl[/url] And here is from the same ad advertising the drilled and tapped receiver in the M1 for scope mounts [url]http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/slug.tpl[/url]
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