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Posted: 4/30/2001 7:32:33 PM EDT
I just bought the book "Genetic Enginering For Dummies" and it said that says that dynsoars were probally more like birds (warm blooded) than lizards (cold blooded). If I'm going hunting over there I'd go with a Winchester 70 in 458 with 500gr solids for Raptors and a LAAW for the big boys. No, on second thought I'd take my bow. Get a T-rex with a bow now that's cool.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:36:47 PM EDT
I don't believe in Dinosaurs. Or dynosars or dynsoars for that matter.[;)]
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:43:11 PM EDT
all those bones are just a trick by the atheists. Don't be fooled
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:48:18 PM EDT
Dinosaur bones were planted by Satan to test the faithful. Just like all those skeletons linking modern whales with ambulocetus, and all those ice cores in the Arctic with perfectly preserved layers of atmospheric dust that go back at least 500,000 years, and the sediment deposits on the ocean floor and those pesky stars that are millions of light years away. Just a trick to mislead the faithful.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:53:49 PM EDT
amen, satan also created science to mislead and f#ck sh#t up. All of you are being fooled. If you don't believe that 6 billion people came from 2 then you are just plain crazy. I mean isn't it obvious.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:49:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hg112: amen, satan also created science to mislead and f#ck sh#t up. All of you are being fooled. If you don't believe that 6 billion people came from 2 then you are just plain crazy. I mean isn't it obvious.
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This could be true. You ever take a look at the size of a family in the woods of the deep south or a 2 room apartment in the projects of any big city[BD] This is just comedy. that's why I insulted both northerns & southerns[:P]
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:57:47 PM EDT
yup - dinosaurs were warm blooded, some covered in hair, some walked up right. some flew. they lived here for a long long long time. what would really piss everyone off (especially the faithful) is when the fact that we as humans have 'reptilian brain stems' is widely known... then the first of the ancient reptilian cities with technology far past ours will be discovered in the closed off areas of the grand canyon that are guarded by wackennut corp..... man i gotta lay off the catnip!!!! steve
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 9:20:42 PM EDT
Why not half & half? some animals can fly, some birds cant. did man come from a lower dude? monkey? da chrome guy? or bang I was here? I was going to say the missing link guy but he's not here he's missing.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 11:30:50 PM EDT
I'm just happy that we'll all eventually know the truth, when we get back to the home planet, Klarian.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 3:48:01 AM EDT
The theory that dinosaurs were warm blooded, had feathers,etc. is just that...a theory. Interesting for sure, don't really care one way or the other though,just don't care for absolutist thinking on these matters.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 3:57:00 AM EDT
Dinosaurs walked the earth for over fifty million years. I rather doubt they were exactly the same for the entire time. Just saw a pic in the newspaper. Some quarry in Europe split open a peice of slate with the nearly pefect image of a dinosaur with teeth & lizard feet, covered with feathers. It hasn't been dated yet. Norm
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:25:32 AM EDT
Of course, if you blieve in the Noahic Flood, as I do, it would be EASY to see that MANY, MANY whales would have gotten caught on land as the waters receeded, and would have sunk down into the mud and died. So, what the anti-God evolutionist now claims to be a dinosaur (btw dinosaurs are necessary to the THEORY of evolution) is nothing more than a whale caught high and dry. OF course, its silly to claim that scientists are knowingly in league with Satan to decieve the masses, but then again, knowing Satan is anti-God, I'm sure he doesn't mind these scientists working overtime to discount the existence of a God to whom they would be accountable for how they live their lives. Which is the basic purpose of evolutionary theory - to ditch God, so man can live however he chooses. In essence, thru evolution, MAN becomes God. Convenient, ain't it??? [;)]
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:40:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Of course, if you blieve in the Noahic Flood, as I do, it would be EASY to see that MANY, MANY whales would have gotten caught on land as the waters receeded, and would have sunk down into the mud and died. So, what the anti-God evolutionist now claims to be a dinosaur (btw dinosaurs are necessary to the THEORY of evolution) is nothing more than a whale caught high and dry. OF course, its silly to claim that scientists are knowingly in league with Satan to decieve the masses, but then again, knowing Satan is anti-God, I'm sure he doesn't mind these scientists working overtime to discount the existence of a God to whom they would be accountable for how they live their lives. Which is the basic purpose of evolutionary theory - to ditch God, so man can live however he chooses. In essence, thru evolution, MAN becomes God. Convenient, ain't it??? [;)]
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I know you're a Creationist, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the above whale tale was you being sarcastic. As for "Noah's Flood," could you tell me, do you believe that all the animals that ever lived, lived together before the Flood?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 5:51:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 5:56:00 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: I know you're a Creationist, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the above whale tale was you being sarcastic. As for "Noah's Flood," could you tell me, do you believe that all the animals that ever lived, lived together before the Flood?
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Sheeesh. Must we butt heads on everything???? I think guns is the ONLY thing we hold in common, dude. I doubt we even both agree that the sun rose this morning. :roll eyes: No. No sarcasm. I believe what I posted, that it is a VERY real possibility. Most "pre-historic" representations of dinosaurs are crafted from a single bone. One from a pig's tooth. Scientists theories re: evolution change more often that I change my underwear (which BTW I change at least once a day). Not exactly a precise "science" - if you know what i mean. Comparatively, God has stuck to the same story for the last 10,000 years (or so.) These evolutionists put MY "faith" to shame. And yes, I believe it is quite possible that ALL animals that lived before the flood are still in existence today. It is inconsistent with my understanding of God (as He describes Himself in the Bible) to believe that He created an animal in Genesis 1 (Creation)that He intended to exterminate in Genesis 8 (The Flood.)
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:12:52 AM EDT
And yes, I believe it is quite possible that ALL animals that lived before the flood are still in existence today.
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Where are the trilobites?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:23:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 6:22:56 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Matt VDW: Where are the trilobites?
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Its not my week to keep track of them. Is it possible that specific individual species of animals are no longer in existence? Yes. Its called extiction. My post above allowed for that. Please read more carefully. But I don't believe God created an entire class of animals solely for the purpose of wiping them off the face of the earth. Its not how my God operates.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:24:10 AM EDT
What's a dynosar or a dynsoar?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:25:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: What's a dynosar ?
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Its an SAR that runs off a dyno [;)]
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 6:36:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 11:07:38 AM EDT by RoadDog]
Oh no...not RikWriter and garandman again. I'm not taking sides, but the last time these guys were together they tore up the "bar". It was almost like, "My Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu!". Peace, bros! [:)] (edited because I missed a word due to trying to get my Surfer butt going on the road.) -RoadDog
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:07:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 7:07:19 AM EDT by RikWriter]
Originally Posted By garandman: No. No sarcasm. I believe what I posted, that it is a VERY real possibility.
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Then you know even less about the subject than I first believed.
Most "pre-historic" representations of dinosaurs are crafted from a single bone. One from a pig's tooth.
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No, that is totally incorrect. Very early on in the study of dinosaurs, it was true that sometimes only single bones were found, but since then the process has become much more sophisticated and entire skeletons have been found of dozens upon dozens of species of dinosaur. The "pig's tooth" throwaway line sounds like a reference to Piltdown Man, which wasn't a dinosaur but a supposed "missing link" and which was a hoax by a priest and farmer, which hoax was debunked by SCIENTISTS, not by clergymen. Really man, you have just got to read more...you're way behind the times and very poorly informed. I know certain morons here are now going to accuse me of being a "know-it-all" but I didn't WRITE the books and anyone who is semi-literate can read them.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:07:46 AM EDT
PART DEUX
Comparatively, God has stuck to the same story for the last 10,000 years (or so.) These evolutionists put MY "faith" to shame.
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No, because scientific theories are "proven" by surviving challenges. That's the way the scientific method works. The holy writs of various religions are set in stone and doubting or revising them is not only discouraged it is expressly forbidden. Scientific theories are revised to fit newly discovered data, while religious beliefs frequently (as in this case) encourage their believers to ignore reality in order to keep believing them. Science only requires faith in the idea that the universe is knowable. Some religions (particularly fundamentalist ones) require you to believe six impossible things before breakfast.
And yes, I believe it is quite possible that ALL animals that lived before the flood are still in existence today. It is inconsistent with my understanding of God (as He describes Himself in the Bible) to believe that He created an animal in Genesis 1 (Creation)that He intended to exterminate in Genesis 8 (The Flood.)
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Okay then. You know, I suppose (but maybe I shouldn't), that one herd of African elephants requires several square miles of territory to themselves to graze on, with no competition from other elephants? And you know that one adult tiger requires several square miles of territory on which to hunt without competition from other large predators, to survive? So tell me how you had not just lions and tigers and bears (oh my!) and elephants and rhinos and etc, BUT ALSO brachisaurs, apatosaurs, megatherium, etc, as well as T-rexes, allosaurs, dimetrodons, deinonychus, smilodon, not to mention all the species of carnivorous flightless birds, etc ALL sharing the same planet? Where the hell did all the plants come from to feed tens of thousands of species of herbivores at once? And how could there be enough herbivores to support tens of thousands of species of carnivores at once? The planet would have had to have been as large as Jupiter to support that many species at once. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the sea life, a situation which would be even more impossible. Speaking of fossils, we also have complete fossil imprints of frigging huge dragonflies...I am sure you've seen the pictures of them. Interesting thing about insects that size...they couldn't survive in the modern world because there is no longer enough oxygen in the atmosphere to support them. Insects breathe through openings in their exoskeleton, which is a reason there is a practical limit to how big they can get. But back when the uberdragonflies existed, the atmosphere was thicker...in fact, the atmosphere would have been TOO thick for humans and most other mammals to breath if those dragonflies were to survive. Yet somehow, according to you, those dragonflies lived together in that a-holes and elbows-packed to the gills world you imagine existed before "the Flood." And you think accepting evolutionary theory takes faith...sheesh.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:18:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: So tell me how you had not just lions and tigers and bears (oh my!) and elephants and rhinos and etc, BUT ALSO brachisaurs, apatosaurs, megatherium, etc, as well as T-rexes, allosaurs, dimetrodons, deinonychus, smilodon, not to mention all the species of carnivorous flightless birds, etc ALL sharing the same planet? Where the hell did all the plants come from to feed tens of thousands of species of herbivores at once? And how could there be enough herbivores to support tens of thousands of species of carnivores at once? .
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I have severe doubt that dinosaurs existed. (here's where you condescendingly mock me for being "antiquated and un-scientific." ) Which negates your entire question above. I stated that it is quite possible that ALL (or most all) species alive today were alive pre-flood. So, they survive on the vegetation and prey today that they survived on back then.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:53:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 7:53:10 AM EDT by BISHOP]
No, because scientific theories are "proven" by surviving challenges. That's the way the scientific method works. The holy writs of various religions are set in stone and doubting or revising them is not only discouraged it is expressly forbidden. Scientific theories are revised to fit newly discovered data, while religious beliefs frequently (as in this case) encourage their believers to ignore reality in order to keep believing them. Science only requires faith in the idea that the universe is knowable. Some religions (particularly fundamentalist ones) require you to believe six impossible things before breakfast.
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Talking about hitting the nail on the head!!! Very well put.
I have severe doubt that dinosaurs existed. (here's where you condescendingly mock me for being "antiquated and un-scientific." )
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HMMMM. What do you expect??? SO all those fossilized(sp) bones are just make believe??? How can you NOT believe something so REAL(bones) but yet completely believe in something with NO proof (a god)? BISHOP
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:55:52 AM EDT
ohhhhhh fishpucky!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:03:27 AM EDT
I stated that it is quite possible that ALL (or most all) species alive today were alive pre-flood.
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Actually, what you stated was:
And yes, I believe it is quite possible that ALL animals that lived before the flood are still in existence today.
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Although I don't think that you meant what you actually wrote there. Logically, the statement that all antediluvian animal species are still alive today would imply that species (such as the dodo) which have become extinct in the past few centuries somehow came into being after the flood.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:10:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BISHOP:
Originally by RikWriter No, because scientific theories are "proven" by surviving challenges. That's the way the scientific method works. The holy writs of various religions are set in stone and doubting or revising them is not only discouraged it is expressly forbidden. .
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Talking about hitting the nail on the head!!! Very well put. SO all those fossilized(sp) bones are just make believe??? How can you NOT believe something so REAL(bones) but yet completely believe in something with NO proof (a god)? BISHOP
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Actually, all you need do is pull out your grade school science book, and read the evolutionary theories. Most all the theories in there are now laughed at within the evoutionary community as silly. Big bang theory, etc. Now "scientists" are even discussing the possibility that the mutations over the ages ACTUALLY took place very rapidly, just with millions of years in between mutations. Know why the NEW theory? They can't find ANY transitional fossils. NONE. By implication, most all the theories you now hold to will be laughed at by the evolutinary community as silly in about 20-30 years. A simple, lay persons study of the human eye is ALL that an open-minded person would need to KNOW that there was an intelligent Master Planner behind its design. To my knowledge, the majority of "fossilized" bones are reproductions. Scientists get a single bone, or a few bones near each other in a scientific dig, and they re-create what the dinosaur looked like by MAKING the other bones. Thats not science, its fantasy. I'm open to documentary evidence that proves otherwise (website, text, etc) , but if you want to make unproven, unsupported generalizations about fossils, save your typing. And you are wrong about holy Writs - at least with regard to The Bible. We as Christians fully welcome full and open scrutiny of our "Holy Writ" as it has never yet been found in error. NONE. NADA. NIL. I'll discuss ANY Biblical supposition or propostion that you want. Go for it. ANything at all - the Bible has NEVER failed me, or withered under scrutiny. And people LOTS smarter than you or me have tried.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:10:33 AM EDT
Interesting thing about insects that size...they couldn't survive in the modern world because there is no longer enough oxygen in the atmosphere to support them. Insects breathe through openings in their exoskeleton, which is a reason there is a practical limit to how big they can get. But back when the uberdragonflies existed, the atmosphere was thicker...in fact, the atmosphere would have been TOO thick for humans and most other mammals to breath if those dragonflies were to survive.
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When you say "thicker", you mean "denser", right? So when you refer to the oxygen content of the air, you're talking about the number of oxygen molecules per unit of volume and not the ratio of oxygen to other atmospheric gasses? If that's true, what has caused the atmosphere to become less dense over time?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:48:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 8:50:51 AM EDT by RikWriter]
Originally Posted By garandman: I have severe doubt that dinosaurs existed. (here's where you condescendingly mock me for being "antiquated and un-scientific." ) Which negates your entire question above.
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Well, no, it doesn't negate the question. Your doubts don't change reality, any more than your beliefs do.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:51:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Actually, all you need do is pull out your grade school science book, and read the evolutionary theories.
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Actually no. School textbooks do a very poor job of explaining evolutionary theory because they are hampered by the desire of the various school boards to avoid controversy. Fundamentalist Creationists hamstring any effort to bring serious evolutionary science into public school textbooks, which is one reason we are raising an entire generation that is nearly scientifically illiterate.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 11:11:47 AM EDT
I feel I must speak my mind on this matter,however I have a nasty cold right now and coupled with the medicene I neither have the patience or the attention span to gey into a very deep debate right now,so if any of my post doesn't make sense please call me on it,and I will try to correct it...... First off I am a christian that believes in creation for a number of reasons,one being that 1} All thing lead to chaos things always degrade in quality the never improve themselves, this is easy enough to understand,any one who owns a house can vouch for this..... I disagree with garandman on dinosuars though,I beleive they existed and maybe in the jungles of south america or africa some "thunder lizards" still exist today...there have been sightings of teridacdell{sp?} and other winged creatures that are referred to a thunder birds.I also beleive dinosuars are mentioned in the Bible when the talk about the leviathen{will look up passage later} I also believe the atmosphere was more dense, in the beginning before the flood,the ground received moisture from a heavy dew and their was no or very little rain, alot of christian scientists believe this....and when God decided to cleanse the world it says he opened the heavens,basicly a portion the atmosphere fell to the earth in rain..... After the flood was over and the waters receeded the earth no longer had such a dense atmosphere and with plant live decimated and climate shifts{its belived that the complete world was a tropical zone bfore the flood and after the climate changed,also that that is when the contenints divided) The larger dino's could not find enough to eat and along with climate changes,the died off,once all the large herbivors were gone the carnivours soon followed in extinction. The sea-bearing animals had it better,and alot of the anceint species survived,however alot are deep sea dwellers,was'nt it in the late '80's that a japense fishing crew recovered a body of a large sea creature that evolutionists had been extinct for a few million years? Or what about that tribe in africa that was occasionally catching certain fish and eating them along with the rest of their catch? Evolutionists also said those were extinct. I will close with my Final questions,if we evloved were is the missing link?? And if the animals and us evolved,why aren't we still evolving?????
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 11:25:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: School textbooks do a very poor job of explaining evolutionary theory because they are hampered by the desire of the various school boards to avoid controversy. Fundamentalist Creationists hamstring any effort to bring serious evolutionary science into public school textbooks, which is one reason we are raising an entire generation that is nearly scientifically illiterate.
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Now I KNOW you are living in a dream world. "Fundamentalist Christians" can't even get the ten Commandments hung in a classroom. And you want me to believe they are influencing textbook content and school board decisions?? Gimme a break. twenty years ago my mom was DAILY in a fight with teh local school board. she couldn't have convinced them that the North Pole is cold, if ever they got wind of the fact that that is what she wanted them to believe. If anything, most administrators do their dead level best to antagonize Christians in their decisions. You're gone man. Conversation over.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 11:26:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 11:52:05 AM EDT by LARRYG]
Enough, already! I still want to know what a dynsoar is. Garandman told me what a dynosar is. TREETOP, is all that about the dinosaurs made up? With all this arguing about creationism versus evolution, has anyone ever considered that maybe evolution is God's way of slowly perfecting the world? Would that be blasphemous to suggest such a thing? If strict creationism as preached by some is true, then man would not have changed at all since the time of Christ or even before him. We would have had AR15's thousands of years ago.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:12:54 PM EDT
The Bambiraptor design was more birdlike than reptilian guys. They were just prototypes, there wasn't much to go on. I thought I took care of the problem pretty well with the K/T boundary extinction event. The "flood" thingie was just a little mistake that's been blown way out of proportion -sheesh, quit complaining. [img]http://www.bambiraptor.com/Media1235/images/BambiLAYERSI_01.gif[/img] [i]Wait'll you see what I've got in store for you![/i]
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:16:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 12:19:21 PM EDT by Bill Wallace]
Garandman and others, Creationists often cast doubt on evolution by stating that no one has ever been able to find transitional fossils. Meaning you have a horse and a proto-horse, but nothing in between. I would like to erase that misconception once and for all. All fossils are transitional. All animals are constantly changing over time (over millions of years). Fossils are extremely rare, as the conditions for preserving fossils are hard to come by. So let's make a little chart. The little x's represent all of the stages of a horse's development over a very long period of time. The numbers represent fossils that were preserved through circumstances. The 0's represent no fossils. (I tried to make this chart without the 0s, but it didn't translate well.) 10000020003000400000005000006000000000000007 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx So scientists will call these animals 1, 2, 3, etc. Creationists will cry out "Hah! There are no transitional fossils between 4 and 5! Your theory is invalid! Had it looked like this: 10000020003000000040000000060000000000000007 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx That transitional fossil you were looking for earlier would have existed, but it wouldn't be seen as a transitional fossil, but as animal 4. Then they would have been looking for the transition between 3 and 4. No matter which fossils you find, there can be no transitional fossils unless you find them all. To give you your transitional fossils, it would need to look like this: 1234567890123456789012345678901234567890 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Which, is, of course, impossible, given the rarity of the conditions required to preserve a fossil. Are all of you God guys still with me? Have I explained this adequately? Bill Wallace
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:26:16 PM EDT
You EVILutionists have it all wrong!! I got it straight from an old boss of mine, he was a Staunch Baptist and Gideon. He told me like it really was.....All those bones that the science types keep finding...well those are really just the bones from all the angels that lived in the world in the era before god remade the world and put man in it... Seems pretty simple to me.....oh ok maybe its just that he was a simpleton!!! No to mention a hypocritcal cheap thief!! but that is another story
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:28:18 PM EDT
I have always wanted to shoot one with my bow too!!
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:38:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Now I KNOW you are living in a dream world. "Fundamentalist Christians" can't even get the ten Commandments hung in a classroom. And you want me to believe they are influencing textbook content and school board decisions?? Gimme a break.
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Nope, no breaks. You apparently don't follow the news very carefully or you would have heard how Creationists got "Intelligent Design" theory introduced into the Kansas school system as a scientific theory to compete with evolution.
You're gone man. Conversation over.
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Yep, most people who know they are wrong prefer to end the conversation rather than face the facts.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:42:52 PM EDT
And if the animals and us evolved,why aren't we still evolving?????
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What makes you think that we aren't?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:46:50 PM EDT
In retrospect I do know it is nearly impossible to debate a Creationist into admitting he is wrong, because the argument is not a scientific one or a logical one. Creationists have (mistakenly) come to believe that unless a very strict literal reading of Genesis is correct, that Christianity can't be correct. Now, I am not a Christian, but I do know that whether or not Genesis was strictly literal or simply misinterpreted allegory is very nearly irrelevant to whether Christianity is the correct religion. The only thing necessary to believe in with regard to human origins in order for Christianity to be true is that humans, at some point, were given a soul and, at some point, sinned and gained the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. Whether God chose to create everything as it is 10,000 years ago or chose to let it evolve over hundreds of millions of years is immaterial and probably wouldn't be included in a text meant to impart spiritual enlightenment on the reader. Assuming the Christian God exists and the Bible is his word (neither of which I believe, but both of which I will accept for the sake of this argument) then the Bible was NOT a science book, or a history book, it was a book meant to teach spiritual and moral lessons. God wouldn't waste time trying to explain genetics and ecological niches to a bunch of half-savage Bronze-Age nomads, He would put it in terms they could understand. All this obsession by fundamentalists on evolution and the Big Bang theory is just puzzling to me...it seems as if it has more to do with stroking their own egos than any real spiritual need.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:52:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bill Wallace: Garandman and others, Creationists often cast doubt on evolution by stating that no one has ever been able to find transitional fossils. Meaning you have a horse and a proto-horse, but nothing in between. I would like to erase that misconception once and for all. Bill Wallace
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Actually, NO, Bill. If you read my posts more carefully, you would see that you are raising a moot point here. Since I like you, I will re-state my earlier post. It is EVOLUTIONISTS that are re-stating their own theories. They are moving to a "rapid mutation" theory, due to the fatc that they ADMIT there are NO, NONE< ZERO, NADA, NIL tramssitional fossils. Sure Creationists have pointed to the missing missing links all OVER the place in evolutionary theory. Now EVOLUTIONISTS are FIANLLY admitting it. Hence, your point is moot, as EVOLUTIONISTS ADMIT there are NO transitional fossils. And YES, that casts a HUGE doubt on evolutionary theories of mutation. How can you call it science when there are NO OBSERVED fossils to prove the theory?? That ISN"T science, as the scientific method REQUIRES that a theory be tested before it be accepted as "science." Since we currently have NO examples of transitional fossils, and in fact have NO examples of mutating manimals (man coming from an animal) you CANNOT test the theory. At least have the honesty to admit that evolution is a THEORY.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 12:57:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Yep, most people who know they are wrong prefer to end the conversation rather than face the facts.
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Oh, that's rich, RIk. You make a statement SO outlandinsh that, after refuting it, I have NO CHOICE but to discontinue the conversation. When I do, you claim victory. PLEASE. There is nothing to be gained for ANYONE by continuing on this subject with you. Till the next topic, have a nice life.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:00:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sigman: First off I am a christian that believes in creation for a number of reasons,one being that 1} All thing lead to chaos things always degrade in quality the never improve themselves, this is easy enough to understand,any one who owns a house can vouch for this.....
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This is an oft-misused paraphrase of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It does not say that "all things lead to chaos" because chaos and order are human conceits. It says that all things are ruled by entropy, which means that hot stuff gets cool, energetic stuff loses energy, etc... However, what humans consider to be an ordered, complex state is often a LOWER ENERGY state than the chaotic state. For instance, when the universe was new, it was incredibly hot and full of disconnected atoms. As it cooled, these coalesced into elements, and finally, after a long time, some of these elements formed into stars and planets. At no time did any of this violate the 2nd law. When it comes to biology, most creationists ignore the fact that the 2nd law has a preamble "In a closed system..." The Earth is NOT a closed system. It is bombarded by solar energy, comets, meteors, cosmic rays, etc...All of these can work along with biological effort to TEMPORARILY reverse entropy, but only on a local level. Entropy is universe-wide, not focussed on our one planet.
I also believe the atmosphere was more dense, in the beginning before the flood,the ground received moisture from a heavy dew and their was no or very little rain, alot of christian scientists believe this....and when God decided to cleanse the world it says he opened the heavens,basicly a portion the atmosphere fell to the earth in rain.....
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Unfortunately for those who believe this, it is quite easy to prove that the release of that much water vapor in the form of rain in that quick a period of time would have flash-roasted the Earth and made it into an uninhabitable twin of Venus.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:01:00 PM EDT
Garandman, I guess I did not explain myself as clearly as I thought. All fossils are transitional. All of them. Just read my post again. I made all these fancy charts and everything just so you would understand what I was trying to say. I have no desire to repeat myself. As for what evolutionists believe and are admitting, I have no idea where you are getting your informatin. Christian propaganda sites? Of course Evolution is just a theory. However, it is the best theory we can come up with given the FACTS we have. Maybe if we discover something else we will come up with a new theory, but I doubt it. Evolution is pretty much a certainty. Maybe some details of it are incorrect, but that't not important right now. Of course it's easier to believe that Harkon the Giant Blue Intergallactic Chipmunk created the universe than it is to actually try to figure out where it came from. Or that God created it. Thank the powers that be that enough people didn't take the easy way out, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead we'd be tilling soil on Feudal barony getting ready for the spring harvest, fearing for our immortal souls while Chinese Imperial troops armed with cannons and bombs would be making their way west, hungry eyes on our primitive Christian lands. Bill Wallace
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:01:22 PM EDT
Part Two:
I will close with my Final questions,if we evloved were is the missing link??
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There is no missing link...there are various ancestors of every species, many of which we have fossils to represent. It is a hard thing for an animal to become a fossil and requires a fortuitous turn of circumstance, so it is really a wonder we have as many as we do. Of course, whenever paleontologists find another fossil ancestor of a modern species, the Creationists say "Now you need TWO MORE missing links!" Sigh.
And if the animals and us evolved,why aren't we still evolving?????
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Thing don't evolve for the sake of evolving. Evolution involves mutation AND an ecological niche to make it a beneficial mutation. Ecological niches don't open up every day, and geology works painfully slow. We do see some species evolving, and have records of species evolving into separate species that can no longer reproduce in the last few centuries. Humans however, may not evolve again because of their ability to change their environment. If evolution works because the environment changes and only invidivuals with certain traits survive to pass on their genes, then humans have arrested their own evolution by technology. If it gets hot, we have AC. If it gets cold, we have furnaces. If it gets dry, we drill for wells or pipe in water, and if it gets too wet, we drain the water. This is a debated subject, but I personally believe that as long as humans can control their environment they will not split off another species no matter what ecological changes occur.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:02:05 PM EDT
The Bible has been changed and retranslated thousands of times. Fundamentalists always claim it is an original from the time of Abraham. But the Catholics (The original Christians) changed it when they were the state religion of Rome, hell they put it together to begin with. There were originally 25 gospels now there are only four? What’s wrong with the other 22. Why did King James’s Protestant, theologians’ take out more books from the older original book? For example the book of Tobit and a few others were omitted in the time of his rule. The Bible is theological guide for mankind not a historical record or science manual. However, evolution and scientific method does not disprove God, someone had to start it all 5 or 6 billion years ago. I believe evolution is a design of a higher power with a plan and best describes life. I look at the OT as mainly myth with good theological points and the New Testament as the truth. Jesus never argued about dinosaurs or the flood he taught us how to be better people and to believe in him, the rest is irrelevant.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:04:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Creationists have (mistakenly) come to believe that unless a very strict literal reading of Genesis is correct, that Christianity can't be correct. All this obsession by fundamentalists on evolution and the Big Bang theory is just puzzling to me...it seems as if it has more to do with stroking their own egos than any real spiritual need.
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If Genesis is neither literal nor correct in its literal application, then the WHOLE Bible becomes suspect as to its truthfulness. When you take an interpretation of the Bible as other than literal, then the READER becomes the ultimate authority, thereby replacing God as authority, becasue the whole meaning of Scripture then comes down to the interpretation of the reader. Which is very much the point. Christians don't defend a literal interpretation of Genesis due to ego. They do it because the WHOLE PURPOSE of evolution is to remove God as an authority over human life, and thereby man can sin to any degree that he wants without accountibility to God.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:05:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Oh, that's rich, RIk. You make a statement SO outlandinsh that, after refuting it, I have NO CHOICE but to discontinue the conversation. When I do, you claim victory. PLEASE. There is nothing to be gained for ANYONE by continuing on this subject with you. Till the next topic, have a nice life.
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Of course you will note you did NOT address the situation in Kansas. That nasty little bugaboo of FACTS got in your way one more time.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:09:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Of course you will note you did NOT address the situation in Kansas. That nasty little bugaboo of FACTS got in your way one more time.
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Okay. You give me ONE example. I could give you one thousand. And you know it. Oh, BTW, that whole Kansas thing has been REVERSED and the teaching of Creation is OUT of the Kansas schools. So even that one example of yours is like your evolutionists MISSING LINK. Frankly, dude, I don't like your condescending, arrogant attitude. It make DISCUSSION very difficult. And THAT is why i am TRYING to end this conversation with you. But you just keep sniping away. garandman out.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:15:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: There is no missing link...there are various ancestors of every species, many of which we have fossils to represent. It is a hard thing for an animal to become a fossil and requires a fortuitous turn of circumstance, so it is really a wonder we have as many as we do
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here is proof of why evolution is such BS. So, you say it takes a "tortuous turn of circumstance" to produce a SINGLE transitional fossil, yet you so easily swallow BILLIONS of humans that evolved from that vomitous mass of goo. So ONE is hard to produce, but BILLIONS is easy to believe??? Like the Bible says "You choke on a gnat, but you can swallow a camel WHOLE."
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:17:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: If Genesis is neither literal nor correct in its literal application, then the WHOLE Bible becomes suspect as to its truthfulness.
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That's your opinion. It has little basis in reality.
When you take an interpretation of the Bible as other than literal, then the READER becomes the ultimate authority, thereby replacing God as authority, becasue the whole meaning of Scripture then comes down to the interpretation of the reader.
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And you think God created you with no brain with which to think for yourself? Plus, I thought Christians believed that the Holy Spirit helped them to properly interpret the scriptures? Do you not believe in that now? I think you are indulging in what is commonly known as bibliolatry rather than practicing Christianity.
Which is very much the point. Christians don't defend a literal interpretation of Genesis due to ego. They do it because the WHOLE PURPOSE of evolution is to remove God as an authority over human life, and thereby man can sin to any degree that he wants without accountibility to God.
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No, most Christians are too intelligent to believe that kind of ridiculous crap. Only fundamentalists believe in it, and are widely ridiculed for it. Sensible Christians all over the world (including the Pope) accept the reality that life evolved and have faith that God intended it to be thus, rather than foolishly denying reality to salve their egos. BTW, I thought you JUST SAID you weren't going to answer my posts on this thread anymore? Isn't that bearing false witness?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 1:24:02 PM EDT
Look, Rik - You are IMO here for the sole purpose of stirring up shit. So continue to bait me if you want, but I'm done with this thread and you for the time being. garandman out.
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