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Posted: 6/25/2003 8:13:33 AM EDT
[#1]
File a claim on the land owner's insurance policy.
Their insurance company will file against the perps that did the damage to recoup their loss. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 8:26:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Definitely keep us updated.
I am thankful that many are showing their kind spirits with offers of assistance, both financially and otherwise. Hopefully we can get Texas Tactical up and running. For anyone that doesn't know, Mike (TexasTactical) organizes IDPA and 'Tactical Carbine' matches in the Central Texas area. These matches are excellent opportunities for firearms enthusiasts to test their skill and equipment in quasi realistic type settings. The competition is fun, and everyone out there is extremely friendly and helpful. If you get the chance, come to one of the matches! You'll have an absolute blast, I guarantee! Mike, I'll be sending a little your way. I can't do too much now, but I know every little bit will count. Hopefully the berms will be rebuilt quickly, and then we can get the target stands and props built up and ready to go. I know I speak for everyone who goes out to the matches, that we greatly appreciate what you do, Mike. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 8:42:45 AM EDT
[#3]
That sucks. Good luck.
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Posted: 6/25/2003 8:52:16 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: He told me that he had given permission for a company to come in and remove some kalichi from another part of the property. At this point no one knows why they destroyed the berms and bulldozed all of our equipment into a huge pile. File a suite against the company for destroying your property. Good luck. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 8:53:27 AM EDT
[#5]
I got three words for you Texas, "Get A Lawyer"
No one will do anything until they show up and then you'll see people starting to make people happy. I hate them but they do have a purpose in life and this is one of those purposes. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 9:06:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Perhaps Eric the Hun can be of some assistence??
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Posted: 6/25/2003 9:07:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I got three words for you Texas, "Get A Lawyer" No one will do anything until they show up and then you'll see people starting to make people happy. I hate them but they do have a purpose in life and this is one of those purposes. Echo: [size=4] "Get A Lawyer"[/size=4] |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 9:15:09 AM EDT
[#8]
fightforyourrights is correct. File against the land owner, since he gave permission and did not oversee what was going on. You'll most likely recover and you'll also be eligable for loss of earnings and other damages.
Don't despair, all is not lost...just temporarily on hold. Good luck. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 9:17:22 AM EDT
[#9]
As the landowner to withhold payment to the excavation firm.
Is it possible the landowner had this done? |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 9:48:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: As the landowner to withhold payment to the excavation firm. Is it possible the landowner had this done? The landowner doesn't have anything to withhold. He gave the excavation company permission to remove some dirt from another part of the property. It appears to me that the dumbass from the excavation company just saw an opportunity to get some easy dirt. He just pushed the equipment into a pile & took the dirt from the berms as it was allready excavated. If anything the excavation company owes him for the material removed. [Devils advocate mode on] The bays probably looked like sand/dirt pits where previous excavation had been done. Many times IDPA stuff looks like trash to the uninformed. Fake walls with square holes(windows). Messed up doors. Even metal target stands can look like scrap metal.He probably thought it was construction debris illegaly dumped in the dirt pits and was helping the landowner out by cleaning up.[devils advocate mode off] The guy was an idiot. The excavation company should make restitution. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 10:13:30 AM EDT
[#11]
What is KALICHI? never have heard the term.
Good luck getting reimbursed. The excavation company needs to pay. They have insurance for such incidents. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 11:00:30 AM EDT
[#12]
That absolutely sucks.
File a claim and put the perps out of business(through the insurance companys lawsuit). File for all possible damages you can come up with, not just the work that needs to be done to repair it(hah, claim for cash to set up a new, all electronic range), but also for a temporary shooting facility, and other damages (IE: maliciously trying to put you out of business). |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 11:34:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Definitely keep us updated. I am thankful that many are showing their kind spirits with offers of assistance, both financially and otherwise. Hopefully we can get Texas Tactical up and running. For anyone that doesn't know, Mike (TexasTactical) organizes IDPA and 'Tactical Carbine' matches in the Central Texas area. These matches are excellent opportunities for firearms enthusiasts to test their skill and equipment in quasi realistic type settings. The competition is fun, and everyone out there is extremely friendly and helpful. If you get the chance, come to one of the matches! You'll have an absolute blast, I guarantee! Mike, I'll be sending a little your way. I can't do too much now, but I know every little bit will count. Hopefully the berms will be rebuilt quickly, and then we can get the target stands and props built up and ready to go. I know I speak for everyone who goes out to the matches, that we greatly appreciate what you do, Mike. It is great to see everyone come together, it just reinforces to me that shooters are some of the best people in the world!! I would'nt do all this if it were'nt for the great people that come shoot with us. Thanks again for all your support Matt. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 11:40:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Thanks for the moral support guys this thing has been pretty tuff. Seeing your home range and all the equipment that you have worked so hard to build and acquire over the years in a huge pile of twisted metal and broken wood is pretty horrific.
Currently we are giving the people who are responsible a chance to step up and do the right thing. (still waiting) [:(] The last thing we want is to go through all the legal mumbo jumbo but we will if we have to. Thanks guys!! |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 1:12:21 PM EDT
[#15]
I work for an environmental consulting firm and I have experience rebuilding firearms ranges.
If the soil has a significant amount of bullets (lead and other metals) then the excavator could be in a lot of trouble for transporting a hazardous waste. I don't believe that this material is a RCRA listed waste so a samples would have to be collected and analyzed. If the concentrations of the metals exceed the regulatory levels then the material would be a characteristic hazardous waste. Since the soil has not been sampled and the concentration of contaminates (lead and other metals) has not been determined the excavated material is not yet considered a hazardous waste. Where did they take the soil? If it is hazardous then the soil may have to be re-excavated and recycled and disposed of. If the state or federal government gets involved this could be very expensive. You probably don't want to play that card but you may be able to use it for leavage against them. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:23:40 PM EDT
[#16]
[b]Get a lawyer![/b]
Doing anything else is a waste of time! |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:29:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: [b]Get a lawyer![/b] Doing anything else is a waste of time! Sic the Hun on 'em. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:29:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Sorry to hear about his Mike![:(]
If the legal thing doesn't work then it will be time to open up a can of...Well y'all know what! BigDozer66 |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:38:11 PM EDT
[#19]
time to 'render inoperative' a coupla bulldozers. Ops
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:41:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: What is KALICHI? never have heard the term. Good luck getting reimbursed. The excavation company needs to pay. They have insurance for such incidents. Simple definition of CALICHI is rock. -hanko |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:49:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I work for an environmental consulting firm and I have experience rebuilding firearms ranges. If the soil has a significant amount of bullets (lead and other metals) then the excavator could be in a lot of trouble for transporting a hazardous waste. I don't believe that this material is a RCRA listed waste so a samples would have to be collected and analyzed. If the concentrations of the metals exceed the regulatory levels then the material would be a characteristic hazardous waste. Since the soil has not been sampled and the concentration of contaminates (lead and other metals) has not been determined the excavated material is not yet considered a hazardous waste. Where did they take the soil? If it is hazardous then the soil may have to be re-excavated and recycled and disposed of. If the state or federal government gets involved this could be very expensive. You probably don't want to play that card but you may be able to use it for leavage against them. That's a good angle to play. Don't let these bastards get away with this!!!! File a criminal complaint. Get a lawyer. File civil suits. Dime on 'em for dumping lead tainted soil. If the owner is in the soil biz- the words 'lead contamination and cleanup' should scare the pee out of them. Ask him what he did with all the contaminated soil they took. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 2:52:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: What is KALICHI? never have heard the term. Good luck getting reimbursed. The excavation company needs to pay. They have insurance for such incidents. Simple definition of CALICHI is rock. -hanko Decomposed limestone. Its chalky, friable mineral material very suitable for constructions as it is water stable and can be used like lime for stabilizing sensitive clays. Unlike lime, its a natural product and is many times cheaper than the former even at the much higher dosing rates required over lime. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 3:01:54 PM EDT
[#23]
CALICHI is soil naturally cemented in arid environment. Rain contains trace amounts minerals. In arid environmental the rain soaks into the ground as it evaporates it leaves behind the minerals that combine with the soil to form a very hard material.
Back to the hazardous waste issue, as soon they excavated the material and discarded it they improperly disposed of a hazardous waste. It could be argued that the material isn't a waste because it has a beneficial use but most regulatory agencies would argue against that. If you do contact a regulatory agency be prepared for the SHTF because it will takes years to resolve and it will be very expensive. |
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Posted: 6/25/2003 3:02:39 PM EDT
[#24]
It angers me just to think of the kind of stupid reasoning it takes to do something so asinine! Sorry that happened to ya'll Gig em hard!
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Posted: 6/25/2003 4:38:31 PM EDT
[#25]
From what I've seen here, the soil isn't a problem until it's disturbed, or until you dump it somewhere and no one knows it contains lead. Ever hear of 'Dome Dirt'??
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Posted: 6/26/2003 8:11:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Wow! I have been inundated with emails and phone
calls from well wishers. I want to thank everyone for there kind messages. I have also recieved a few offers of financial help. My initial reaction to these offers was "dang, what an extremely nice gesture but I can't accept". My thoughts were, that I have never accepted any kind of charity in my life and never would. However, after talking to several people and even arguing about accepting financial donations. I have been convinced to swallow my pride and do what's best for the Texas Tactical shooters. So........(swallowing hard) if you would like to make a donation to help replace the equipment that was destroyed so that we can get back to putting on matches A.S.A.P., our address is: Texas Tactical 13030 Blanco Rd #718 San Antonio, Texas 78216 (please make checks out to Jennifer Wilson) Some people have requested that we set up a PAYPAL account. So If you would prefer to use PAYPAl our account is: [email protected] Once again thank y'all for your support it's a wonderful thing to see everyone come together in a time like this. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 11:40:06 AM EDT
[#27]
Hey JimBeam, thanks for the great info. So in your opinion I should only use this as a last resort?
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Posted: 6/26/2003 1:24:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Would I sound like a dickhead if I said I wan't sure I just wanted to help buy replacement equipment if you don't want to try to recoup the losses from the a-hole that perpetrated this hate crime???
What about the next time it happens?? Do we just pay to replace it again??? I'm in SA, I'd like to help out. But I wouldn't want to see the equipment destroyed again. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 1:37:19 PM EDT
[#29]
any firearms & ammo in the equipment pile?
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Posted: 6/26/2003 1:43:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Would I sound like a dickhead if I said I wan't sure I just wanted to help buy replacement equipment if you don't want to try to recoup the losses from the a-hole that perpetrated this hate crime??? What about the next time it happens?? Do we just pay to replace it again??? I'm in SA, I'd like to help out. But I wouldn't want to see the equipment destroyed again. Not at all. I completely agree with you. Rest assured we are doing , and will do, everything in our power to make the idiots pay. How long this might take I have no clue. The people who are suggesting making donations don't want to wait to see if and when we collect. They want to see us back up and running as soon as possible so we can continue to put on matches. I strongly resisted the idea of donations at first however I have realized that at this time this is what is best for all our shooters and what the majority wants. So I have swallowed my pride and will accept donations to benefit the shooting community as a whole so we can get back up and running as soon as possible. Do you shoot with us? |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 1:47:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Hey JimBeam, thanks for the great info. So in your opinion I should only use this as a last resort? Yep but you could use it to hammer him. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 2:16:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Sure, this is bad and all, but at least they can pack each other's fudge.
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Posted: 6/26/2003 2:22:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Hi Texas- I don't shoot with y'all yet. But I'm on your email list. I'm willing to donate an afternoon if you need. I'm on a student budget right now. I still need to decide which upper I want to put on my RRA lower. And I can bring some ammo to share next time if I can try out an upper or two.
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Posted: 6/26/2003 2:24:47 PM EDT
[#34]
I do not get it. If someone bulldozed my house I would have standing to file a criminal complaint. If I understand correctly, this is not your property, but property you were allowed to use? If I owned the property and it was vandalized; wouldn't I have cause to seek compensation?
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Posted: 6/26/2003 2:51:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Sure, this is bad and all, but at least they can pack each other's fudge. WHAT?? |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 2:56:43 PM EDT
[#36]
I appreciate the offer I understand about your budget....I can relate. [:)] Well hopefully we will be back up and running soon and we would love to have y'all come out and shoot with us!
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:01:22 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I do not get it. If someone bulldozed my house I would have standing to file a criminal complaint. If I understand correctly, this is not your property, but property you were allowed to use? If I owned the property and it was vandalized; wouldn't I have cause to seek compensation? I'm not sure I know what you are asking. We do not own the property that the range sits on. We did build the range. We leased the range for our matches and training on a per use basis. All of our equipment was stored at the range. I'm not sure if that clarifiies anything for you or not. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:10:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I'm not sure I know what you are asking. We do not own the property that the range sits on. We did build the range. We leased the range for our matches and training on a per use basis. All of our equipment was stored at the range. I'm not sure if that clarifiies anything for you or not. The lease is your leg to stand on. I wouldn't wait more than a day or so to file suit, if it were me. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:25:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: I do not get it. If someone bulldozed my house I would have standing to file a criminal complaint. If I understand correctly, this is not your property, but property you were allowed to use? If I owned the property and it was vandalized; wouldn't I have cause to seek compensation? I'm not sure I know what you are asking. We do not own the property that the range sits on. We did build the range. We leased the range for our matches and training on a per use basis. All of our equipment was stored at the range. I'm not sure if that clarifiies anything for you or not. Thanks for the clarification. Man that sucks! If it ok to ask, what has been the construction companies position? |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:26:37 PM EDT
[#40]
There's almost certainly no crime involved here. This is at worst negligence. A civil offense. I'm surprised you all want to send them to jail etc. etc. when you don't know the facts, or what he knew, or whether he thought the berms and targets were just garbage etc. Likewise with the bersm, lead, etc. There's usually no crime unless you have intent, and there's no reason why the excavators would have intentionally destroyed this property if they didn't think it was refuse, etc. Even so, they're probably civilly liable b/c they should have known better and should have checked.
The landowner might be negligent, as is the co. You may want to think twice about suing the landowner, though, if you want to keep a relatinoship with him. As for donations and all, I guess that depends on how much people want the range up and running. I don't usually make a habit of donating to businesses to get up and running. Simple qustion, why don't you have insurance for your business (if this is a busines )that covers the property and your personal liability for negligence as well as the down time etc. What will you do if you set up a match and a kid gets an eye taken out from richoeting metal or catches one in the grape. Since you're liable for negligence too--i.e., the failure to take reasonable precauations--it seems like that could come up a lot in IDPA, i.e., why'd you run a hot range, why are two shooters on this match, why is the shooter turning 270 degrees, why'd you not keep everyone behind the firing line, etc. I'm not saying this to be a dick, but to give you some free advice: BUY INSURANCE. This ain't a matter of lawyers being evil or anything, but every business is liable for negligence. What if your shooters' bullets hit a nearby farm animal or person. What would you do then? It sounds like you need to think all this through. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:37:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Texas Tactical: please keep us all informed as things progress. Get the best lawyer you can afford, I know others have told you this as well. File papers with the appropriate insurance agency but do not sign anything they send back to you without having the lawyer look at it carefully first!
What you are doing by accepting donations and trying to rebuild the range before litigation is initiated is called "mitigation of damages", or minimizing your damages. Despite your pride, which we appreciate, this is a good idea in real life and a good move in the courtroom as well. A Plaintiff who does not take steps to minimize the damage done by the offending party takes a risk that the amount of his eventual compensation will be offset, reduced, because he failed to help his own situation when it was possible to do so. For example, say that my apartment floods because my landlord negligently reversed the sump pump and pumped sewer water inside. The damage to my personal property from the flood will be $1000 in ruined furniture if I immediately pull all of my guns out of the closet and put my cello out of harm's way. If I sit in the corner and cry instead of helping save my property, the damage done will be much worse, say an additional $4000 for the cello and $5,000 worth of firearms. At trial, if the landlord's attorney argues persuasively (and a good defense attorney WILL argue this every time, you only have power over how persuasive the argument will be) that a reasonable person would have tried harder to minimize the damage to his property, guess what I get at the end of the day? $1000 for the furniture, and zilch for the other stuff that I could have saved but didn't. ETH or another real lawyer can probably explain mitigation better than I can--they actually have passed bar exams and have jobs and real clients. I have a crapload of books and a degree and that's about it, until the bar exam. Again, please keep us informed. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:43:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Hey Publius, thanks for the great info. Thanks for the great laugh too
"catches one in the grape" We do have liability insurance but who would have ever thought we would need anti bulldozer insurance. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:46:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Well it is a little surprising, but your liability insurance might include coverage here. Not sure. They might be able to recommend a lawyer too.
I'm pretty sure the landowners insurance would not cover your personal property kept on his land for a commercial purpose (or any purpose), but it might. Since your case sounds pretty strong, I'd be surprised if the excavators don't pay up w/o a trial, unless their financial position is screwed. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:48:22 PM EDT
[#44]
How much money's on the line, btw? $5000 $10000 $20000?
If it's a lot I could probably handle it, otherwise you probably want a plaintiff's lawyer that is experienced in litigation involving insurance companies that can do it on contingency. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 4:26:30 PM EDT
[#45]
who was the company removing the calichi,
I'll get your money back Lebrew |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 5:10:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: who was the company removing the calichi, I'll get your money back Lebrew This sounds like a man that's ready to bust some kneecaps. Sorry to hear about the range and good luck on getting it back up and running. |
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Posted: 6/26/2003 5:22:17 PM EDT
[#47]
I hate to bring this up because I fear it will play a hand in limiting our future ranges, but... Consider that IF they did take the earth from the berms, that soil is probably [B]HEAVELY CONTAMINATED WITH LEAD[/B]. Where did this soil end up? What are they using it for? Who is going to pay to decontaminate the place they took and used the soil? This sounds like a nightmare in the making. Good luck Texas.
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Posted: 6/26/2003 8:07:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: I hate to bring this up because I fear it will play a hand in limiting our future ranges, but... Consider that IF they did take the earth from the berms, that soil is probably [B]HEAVELY CONTAMINATED WITH LEAD[/B]. Where did this soil end up? What are they using it for? Who is going to pay to decontaminate the place they took and used the soil? This sounds like a nightmare in the making. Good luck Texas. Honestly, I'm wondering about what they did with the soil. Was it backstops with lead or just berms around shooting positions?? If they sell it as top soil and it goes into someone's back yard and contains pounds of lead... posted by Publius: There's almost certainly no crime involved here. There have to be several crimes here. Theft? Vandalism? Destruction of private property? |
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Posted: 6/27/2003 7:54:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Damn, Mike. Sorry to hear about the range getting torn up. Hopefully things will work out in your favor. At least the matches in SA are still going.
Chris Cosper |
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