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Posted: 6/25/2003 4:19:04 AM EDT
Goddamn I hate the f'ing continent of Europe. [url]http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6645193^1702,00.html[/url] Pressure to ban spanking June 24, 2003 THE British Government faced mounting pressure to legally ban parents from spanking their children as two influential committees of MPs said today that the practice conflicted with UN human rights rulings and could easily lead to greater physical abuse. The Government has already outlawed the use of corporal punishment in day care centres and schools across Britain. But parents and guardians are still permitted to use spanking as "reasonable chastisement", putting Britain out of step with several European countries where all physical punishment of children is illegal. MPss on the two parliamentary committees found that such a legal defence was too often used to excuse violent behaviour that goes far beyond a "loving smack". They suggest that the right of such a defence be repealed but acknowledged that it might be hard to win public support for new laws that could lead to parents being prosecuted for mild smacks.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:33:05 AM EDT
I did a paper on this in school. All my research points that, while beatings are abusive, a couple of open-handed swats across a kid's backside is sometimes the only way to get through to a kid throwing a major fit. These swats are designed to get the child's attention, not to inflict pain. This method should only be used as a last resort and you should talk with your child after the event.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:00:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 5:05:03 AM EDT by bvmjethead]
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express: I did a paper on this in school. All my research points that, [red]while beatings are abusive,[/red] a couple of open-handed swats across a kid's backside is sometimes the only way to get through to a kid throwing a major fit. These swats are designed to get the child's attention, not to inflict pain. This method should only be used as a last resort and you should talk with your child after the event.
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There is a HUGE difference between spanking your child for misbehaving and beating. No flames but I wonder if you have any children...... Prov 13:24 24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. NIV Prov 22:15 15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him. NIV Prov 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. NIV Prov 29:15 15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother. NIV Just a few off the top of my head. In my 38 years of being on this planet I've never once seen PROPER discipline harm a child physically or emotionally. Proper discipline includes both spanking and talking to your children to explain why what they did was wrong and why they are being spanked. It did me a world of good and as a matter of fact my mom stopped spanking me WAY to soon. I deserves a good butt kicking now and then years after she stopped.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:13:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express: I did a paper on this in school. All my research points that, while beatings are abusive, a couple of open-handed swats across a kid's backside is sometimes the only way to get through to a kid throwing a major fit. These swats are designed to get the child's attention, not to inflict pain. This method should only be used as a last resort and you should talk with your child after the event.
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How did your ostensibly liberal teacher take to this report? The NEA has come out firmly against any sort of corporal punishment, be it in school or at home.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:15:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 5:23:51 AM EDT by Belfry_Express]
Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express: I did a paper on this in school. All my research points that, [red]while beatings are abusive,[/red] a couple of open-handed swats across a kid's backside is sometimes the only way to get through to a kid throwing a major fit. These swats are designed to get the child's attention, not to inflict pain. This method should only be used as a last resort and you should talk with your child after the event.
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There is a HUGE difference between spanking your child for misbehaving and beating. No flames but I wonder if you have any children...... Prov 13:24 24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. NIV Prov 22:15 15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him. NIV Prov 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. NIV Prov 29:15 15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother. NIV Just a few off the top of my head.
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edited to remove the statement about the split bamboo cane.
In my 38 years of being on this planet I've never once seen PROPER discipline harm a child physically or emotionally. Proper discipline includes both spanking and talking to your children to explain why what they did was wrong and why they are being spanked.
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THis is my point exactly. This is what I found in my research to be the thing to do. When I said beating, I am talking about, "cut your switch" and your ass was bloody after about 15 min of being whailed on. No I dont have kids, but I believe in corporal punishment. If you leave ANY lasting marks (other than some slight redness), bruising, cuts, things of that nature, you have crossed the line into abuse. It shouldnt take more than 3 "blows." It should be used to get the child's attention, not inflict grevious pain. Last time I looked, they dont come with a manual, so you are winging it just like every other parent. The best we can hope to do is learn from the mistakes our parents made. ::Puts on nomex suit and Class VI riot gear:: Here we go.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:27:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 5:31:28 AM EDT by bvmjethead]
No, as a matter of fact I don't have kids. And where do you get off with thinking just because I advocate spanking I'm abusive? No I won't beat my kids with a cane pole. Do I think it has a place? YES. I'll bet good money that kid in Singapore never vandalized anybody else's Mercedes....remember that? My kids will be brought up in an environment that includes first and foremost a lot of love. I want kids, my children will not be accidents, they will be planned for and wanted. I will talk to the about what's right and wrong and spend quality time with them, but when they get out of line I will most definitely spank them. I will spank them with a paddle too, I will never.....check that... rarely hit them with my own hand. The bible says "rod" for a reason, the punishment should never come from the same hand as the love does. I don't need a manual for raising a child, my parents did a great job. All I have to do is strive to do even better than them.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:11:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 6:12:05 AM EDT by Belfry_Express]
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: No I won't beat my kids with a cane pole. Do I think it has a place? YES. I'll bet good money that kid in Singapore never vandalized anybody else's Mercedes....remember that?
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YEP! I bet that kid doesnt even enjoy art class. [;D] I urge you to reconsider the foreign object concept. You just cant tell how hard the impacts are. A paddle doesnt provide adequate feedback. I apologize for my earlier baseless accuastions. We are essentially agreeing on the theory behind physical punishment just not the application. Lets just leave that sticking point alone. I am not gonna debate the Bible, thats not my job. You are entrenched your belief structure and I in mine. And I doubt either of us will change. Lets just end this on good terms. Truce?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:14:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 95thFoot: How did your ostensibly liberal teacher take to this report? The NEA has come out firmly against any sort of corporal punishment, be it in school or at home.
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Thank goodness I go to a college where hardly anyone has an agenda. My Prof kept her views out of class and stuck to instructing us on good research practices.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:29:47 AM EDT
The purpose of spanking a child is to get their attention. Small children are not adults to be reasoned with. If you need to get their attention with a smack, do it. If you try to reason with a two year old, you will lose, and you will end up with an undisciplined, irresponsible, rude, arrogant, spoiled brat who is beyond discipline when they become an adult. Eventually, someone will get sick of their shit and beat the hell out of them. [:)] Unfortunately, they'll be too old to learn anything at that point. Maybe this is part of the problem in Europe: we're seeing the impact of a generation which was not disciplined as children. (I do agree that anything hard enough to leave a mark is too much.)
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:56:38 AM EDT
Blah Blah Blah, smacked as a kid, blah blah blah, never did me any harm. etc. > Maybe this is part of the problem in Europe: > we're seeing the impact of a generation which > was not disciplined as children. Adn those of us who support you guys were, possibly just coincidental, but there ya go. My Parents are/were social workers, 'bout as liberal as it gets really, I seem to remember being smacked, I'm sure. Hopefully there will be an outcry (which I shall join) to push this silly suggestion out of parliment back where it belongs. /Phil
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:33:17 AM EDT
Let me say this, I don't [red]think[/red] I will have to spank my kid's much past the age of........4-5. By then they will be assured of what is acceptable behavior and what is not. Keep in mind I don't have kids....YET.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:40:14 AM EDT
bvmjethead said: I don't need a manual for raising a child...
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Ahhh, but you do. You quoted from it just above. [:D] And a fine one it is. My Dad, who loved me dearly and the feeling was mutual, used his belt to whip me. He left marks that would send him to jail nowadays. But it did no permanent harm and I learned the valuable lessons [b]quickly[/b] so as to avoid the belt in the future. (On another note, bvmjethead, the spell check always offers "bonehead" as a possible substitute for your name. Coincidence? I doubt it.) [nana]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:46:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By equin0x: Adn those of us who support you guys were, possibly just coincidental, but there ya go. My Parents are/were social workers, 'bout as liberal as it gets really, I seem to remember being smacked, I'm sure. Hopefully there will be an outcry (which I shall join) to push this silly suggestion out of parliment back where it belongs. /Phil
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Sorry if I over-generalized, Phil. We wish you guys the best with what you have to work with!
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:12:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 8:16:21 AM EDT by 95thFoot]
Originally Posted By fizassist: The purpose of spanking a child is to get their attention. Small children are not adults to be reasoned with. If you need to get their attention with a smack, do it. If you try to reason with a two year old, you will lose, and you will end up with an undisciplined, irresponsible, rude, arrogant, spoiled brat who is beyond discipline when they become an adult. Eventually, someone will get sick of their shit and beat the hell out of them. [:)] Unfortunately, they'll be too old to learn anything at that point.
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And, they'll be public school education professionals, too.....
Maybe this is part of the problem in Europe: we're seeing the impact of a generation which was not disciplined as children.
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That was certainly the case in W Germany when I grew up there in the 60s and 70s. Some REALLY spoiled brats, with no sense of limits, overblown self-worth, blaming everybody for their faults and transgressions, esp. on the playground. It was known as the anti-autoritaere Erziehung (anti-authoritarian upbringing, AKA repression-free or free ubringing)and produced little monsters who were never punished for their actions. Teacher and student assaults, bullying, drug abuse, teen sex (all kinds) skyrocketed under it. It wasn't the sole cause of all this, but it sure helped. Germans were scared of becoming Nazis again, but frankly created potentially worse individuals. I remember being over at friends' houses and listening to them mouth off at their parents using terms I would never have dreamed of saying to my parents, let alone in reference to them. And the parents shrugged it off, attempted to reason with the kids, or rationalized it all away as a "phase"...[:D]
[url=http://www.abenteuer-literatur.de/Autoren/Mizera/ANTIAUTORITARE-Erziehung/antiautoritare-erziehung.html]ANTIAUTORITÄRE ERZIEHUNG[/url] Ein Bild aus alten Zeiten: der Sohn gehorchte der mahnenden Mutter nicht, da er­hob sich der Vater aus seinem Stuhl, schritt auf den Zwerg zu und versetzte ihm eine Tracht Prügel. Der Fünfjährige lernte daraus. So wurde dieser Brauch seit Jahrhunderten traditionell fortschrittlich von Gene­ration zu Generation vererbt. Dadurch entwickelten sich in den Jahrtausenden unserer Kultur weiche Knaben zu harten, gerechten Männern. Diese Sitte brachte dann immerhin so großartige Menschen wie Schwach­sinnige Cäsaren, inzüchtige Herrscher, hundertjährige Kriege (oder auch kürzer, dafür grau­samer), Ausrottungen von Naturvölkern und kontinuierliche Zerstörung des Plane­ten Erde, zustande. So änderten kluge Köpfe in den Siebzigern und Achtzigern die Erziehungsme­tho­den radikal. Meine Generation bevorzugt nun den repressionsfreien Stil. Wenn mein Sohn der mahnenden Mutter nicht gehorcht, so erhebe ich mich aus meinem Stuhl, schreite auf den Zwerg zu und erhebe drohend mit erklärenden, be­schwichtigenden Worten meinen Zeigefinger. Als Zeichen, dass er mich verstanden hat, zeigt er den Mittelfinger und wünscht mir höflich, dass ich ihn am Arsch lecken könne. C 2001
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My translation.... "REPRESSION-FREE UPBRINGING A picture from the good old days: when the son didn't obey the mother when she admonished him, his father got up from his chair, marched over to the little dwarf, and gave him a sound thrashing. The five-year old learned from that. And so this practice was passed on traditionally and progressively from generation to generation. Through this, over thousands of years, our culture transformed soft boys into tough, fair men. This custom brought forth great men as well as morons: Caesars, inbred rulers, hundred-year-wars (but also some that were shorter, and all the more cruel), extermination of primitive peoples, and continuous destruction of the planet Earth. Therefore, in the 70s and 80s, clever minds altered these methods of child-rearing radically. Nowadays, my generation prefers the repression-free variety. When my son doesn't obey his mother when she tells him to do something, I get up out of my chair, march over to the little dwarf, and point, with calming, soothing words of explanation, my index finger at him. As a sign, that he has understood what I have told him, he shows me his middle finger, and tells me politely that I can kiss his ass." [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:24:34 AM EDT
One of the biggest problems with alot of parents now is they are too scared or won't disicpline their kids. I never got an ass whooping from my parents that I didn't deserve and even if I got a spanking when I didn't do something I was accused of it made up for the times I got away with doing bad stuff.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:58:30 PM EDT
I only got spanked a few times, but sometimes a little goes a long way. I learned right from wrong REAL fast when my dad started cracking his belt at me. By the way, I am only 15, so good ol' discipline is still around these days.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:26:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: (On another note, bvmjethead, the spell check always offers "bonehead" as a possible substitute for your name. Coincidence? I doubt it.) [nana]
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Thanks for pointing that out Painless. You know I ran a check and the spell check gives me "Old Painintheass" as an option for your nickname.[O:)]
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