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Posted: 6/24/2003 1:52:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2003 1:55:08 PM EDT by Airwolf]
Holy mother of God! Damned stupid idiotic motherfucking assholes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This has GOT to be the most insane thing that I have EVER read in my 45 years on this ball of dust. [url]http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/6_17_03hollow_point.html[/url] Effort mounted to strip Border Patrol of hollow-point bullets LUKE TURF Tucson Citizen June 17, 2003 A campaign aiming to change controversial ammunition used by the U.S. Border Patrol is under way. Critics of "controlled expansion bullets" contend the hollow-point bullets - used by the Border Patrol since the 1970s - are unnecessarily lethal. When a Washington, D.C.-based legal support group learned that the agency requested a five-year supply of the rounds, it saw an opportunity to attack their use. "We don't think that (hollow points) are necessary, they cause massive injuries," said Donald Kerwin, executive director of Washington, D.C.,- based Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. "We were shocked to find that they're standard issue for the Border Patrol and other immigration agents." Many law enforcement agencies, including Tucson Police and Pima County Sheriff's departments, use hollow-point bullets. Military personnel generally use full-metal jacket bullets. Officials from the Border Patrol, and other law enforcement agencies say the bullets are safer for the public than full-metal jacket bullets because hollow points are less likely to rip through a human body and hit an innocent bystander. The bullets are designed so that the tip expands when it hits its target, dispensing all its energy into the target. Tucson police and the Pima County sheriff's deputies, who work in predominantly urban settings, use hollow points. But CLINIC's Kerwin said the Border Patrol does not need the bullets along the rural parts of the U.S.-Mexico border. CLINIC, a legal support system for non-profit Catholic agencies that represent low-income immigrants, wants Department of Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge to stop the Border Patrol from using the ammunition. Ridge's department oversees Border Patrol. Local human rights activist group Derechos Humanos was one of 75 groups who signed onto to the campaign. Kerwin said "it's no surprise" a Border Patrol agent killed a man outside Douglas recently, because the hollow point bullets are more dangerous. But others don't see it that way. An independent law enforcement expert in Long Beach, Calif., Anthony Paul, said he doesn't believe one bullet is more or less dangerous than another. "They're both going to kill you," Paul said. But the range master for the Pima County sheriff, Sgt. Thayer Thacker, said that if the bullets work as they were designed to, they are more fatal. "Basically it causes more tissue damage, more blood loss, which means the person stops doing whatever they were doing, in theory," Thacker said. Thacker said hollow-points, which are generally more expensive, are used for two reasons: To cause more trauma to the body and to decrease chances of overpenetrating, thus injuring a third party. The Border Patrol and Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement are among the Homeland Security Department agencies seeking bids for 225 million rounds of ammunition, which will likely be hollow-point bullets, said Homeland Security contract specialist Paul Shannon. A Border Patrol spokesman referred all questions on hollow-point bullets to the National Firearms Unit, a federal agency. No one from the unit could be reached. A spokesman for ICE, Greg Palmore, said hollow-points meet all Department of Justice use-of-force policies. "Overall, any handgun can cause a fatality if used incorrectly," he said, adding that hollow points also don't travel through doors or walls. "It's the classic law enforcement ammo," said Homeland Security's Shannon. Kerwin said CLINIC has long wanted Border Patrol to stop using hollow points. Shannon said he estimates the 225 million rounds of .40 caliber bullets would last five years. Though the solicitation doesn't specifically seek hollow-points, Shannon said they're asking manufacturers to submit the "best quality bullet." Two Arizona congressmen are split on the issue. U.S. Rep. Raúl Grijalva, D.-Ariz., says he signed his support onto a letter being circulated by U.S. Rep. Joe Baca, D.-Calif., essentially asking the Border Patrol to stop using the hollow-points. "It's full deadly force with the hollow-point, they explode inside of you, that's the point," Grijalva said. "I can't connect the argument that they're safer because they don't go through people." U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, R.-Ariz., didn't sign the letter, said Neena Moorjani, his press secretary. She read the following statement issued by Kolbe. "It is appropriate that law enforcement officers make the decision about how best to protect the lives of their officers and least threaten individuals," Moorjani read. A spokesman for Baca said if the letter isn't successful, litigation is always an option.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:00:08 PM EDT
This argument is so stupid on so many levels but it ignored the primary purpose of carrying a gun. LEO and military do not carry firearms to WOUND people. They carry to STOP the person. LEO's are trained to make a decision when they pull or aim their firearm. Heck, we have it drilled into us not even to put our finger on the trigger unless we've made the decision to kill the target. Sharpshooters and snipers and SWAT operators are trained to make disabling shots. The typical LEO on the street and I dare say the border patrols are trained to shoot at center mass. You know what that usually does if you hit what you're aiming at? It kills.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:05:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:07:53 PM EDT
Now I gotta write a letter to that dumfuck Grijalva. [size=6]GRIJALVA IS A DUMB, IGNORANT MOFO!!![/size=6]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:09:19 PM EDT
The dreaded Hollow point bullets are "KOP KILLERS". The Border Patrol should be allowed to carry them. Just not Civilians. Next they will come up with some shit like putting serial numbers on bullets.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:21:40 PM EDT
Let me guess, Grijalva and Baca don't want their fellow "Chicanos" shot with hollowpoints. Maybe we can build the water stations those poor souls desperately need. Hell, why not just have air-conditioned buses to take them directly to the U.S. benefits office and get them signed up right away? Grijalva and Baca just can't see themselves as Americans (and elected U.S. officials no less). No, they're some kind of hyphenated bullshit where ya gotta take care of your "brotha" and/or "homey" first and foremost. Forget being an AMERICAN (without the hyphen)! This kind of shit makes me sick.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:23:36 PM EDT
Holy shit. AZ-K9 and I are in agreement on something. (looks over shoulder for incoming lightning bolt)
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:26:31 PM EDT
[b]"It's full deadly force with the hollow-point, they explode inside of you, that's the point," Grijalva said. "I can't connect the argument that they're safer because they don't go through people." [/b] WTF is "full" deadly force? Maybe they should only use "kind-of" deadly force.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:30:24 PM EDT
See that's exactly the kind of semantic CRAP that these people use because an actually debate based in reality doesn't work for them. As far as I know there are three levels of force. Deadly. Less than lethal. Non-lethal. Deadly means the intent is to KILL, to make them dead.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:30:31 PM EDT
Well, at least all the citizen patrols that are forming up can still carry whatever ammo they prefer. Damned hypenated Americans.....you're either an American, or you're not.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:31:40 PM EDT
The individual who is stopped with a hollowpoint or two is more likely survive a surgery that the person who needs to be shot a dozen times with FMJ bullets in order to be stopped.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:39:42 PM EDT
WTF? Maybe we should take the pistols away from them. Cruizer
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:43:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ABNAK: Let me guess, Grijalva and Baca don't want their fellow "Chicanos" shot with hollowpoints. Maybe we can build the water stations those poor souls desperately need. Hell, why not just have air-conditioned buses to take them directly to the U.S. benefits office and get them signed up right away?
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Hey! you left out the baloney and cheese sandwiches.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:44:40 PM EDT
Fascinating. I’d have to say this goes beyond ignorance in to malicious. I believe these people are actively trying to destroy America.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:49:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2003 2:50:32 PM EDT by Airwolf]
Originally Posted By markl32: Fascinating. I’d have to say this goes beyond ignorance in to malicious. I believe these people are actively trying to destroy America.
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ding-ding-ding! We have a WINNER! Up until a year ago I would have said that is a tin-foil hat statement if there ever was one. Now after seeing multiple reports I am convinced that is EXACTLY what is happening to this nation. We will not fall from frontal assault, we will be devoured from within and it's happening before our eyes as we speak.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:52:45 PM EDT
[b]Washington, D.C.,- based Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc.[/b] If you are a legal immigrant; why would you worry about getting shot by the Border Patrol. Oh, I see, even their name is B.S. [BS]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:55:15 PM EDT
Hollow-points, are illegal to use in warfare, under international law. The enemies of our country, know we are at war, and simply want us to adhere to international conventions. There is nothing "unreasonable", about it at all. It's the law! [;D] Just because Americans are ignorant of their status, does not offer an excuse for disobeying the law! [:D]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:57:41 PM EDT
Just another sign of the end of the UN-United States of Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:03:23 PM EDT
"Overall, any handgun can cause a fatality if used [red]incorrectly[/red]," he said, adding that hollow points also don't travel through doors or walls. "It's the classic law enforcement ammo," said Homeland Security's Shannon.
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Shouldn't that say "correctly"? Just stupid people doing stupid things saying stupid stuff. Nothing new here.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:04:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: [b]"It's full deadly force with the hollow-point, they explode inside of you, that's the point," Grijalva said. "I can't connect the argument that they're safer because they don't go through people." [/b] WTF is "full" deadly force? Maybe they should only use "kind-of" deadly force.
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LOL. Good one.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:11:03 PM EDT
True story: I once had a Russian immigrant classmate, trying to justify immigration, tell me "did you know that you could fit the entire worlds population into an area the size of Texas". My reply to him was "why would I want to do something like that?". [nono] I believe our country is full, no vacancies, our resources are already spread too thin.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:18:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32: Fascinating. I’d have to say this goes beyond ignorance in to malicious. I believe these people are actively trying to destroy America.
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Your beginning to get the idea, Mark, keep at it
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:24:35 PM EDT
Hi Bro... [snoopy]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:29:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2003 3:33:45 PM EDT by Andreuha]
This is absolutely rediculous. If i'm going to shoot someone, I would think I'd have a reason to kill that person(I use the term losely). If i'm going to kill said perp, I want to KILL them, not unload my magazine in vein. I think that there should be a new crime called 'anti-constitutional activism'. Just for crap like this. Someone wants to strip cops of their power- jail em. Someone wants to keep us from defending ourselves [;)] Lock em up and throw away the key!
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:31:42 PM EDT
Any of you fellas ever read a copy of "George Washingtons Prophecy" concerning the future of Amerika?? A copy may be ordered from: Dr. John Grady, M.D., Route 2,Box 165, Benton, TN 37307. It might clear up a lot of questions!!
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 3:36:14 PM EDT
Hi, Woody; Didn't mean to horn in, but couldn't resist a response to those who, "just don't get it" as to what's really goin on....
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 4:13:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JMA: Any of you fellas ever read a copy of "George Washingtons Prophecy" concerning the future of Amerika?? A copy may be ordered from: Dr. John Grady, M.D., Route 2,Box 165, Benton, TN 37307. It might clear up a lot of questions!!
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Can we view or order it online or by phone?
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 4:19:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha:
Originally Posted By JMA: Any of you fellas ever read a copy of "George Washingtons Prophecy" concerning the future of Amerika?? A copy may be ordered from: Dr. John Grady, M.D., Route 2,Box 165, Benton, TN 37307. It might clear up a lot of questions!!
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Can we view or order it online or by phone?
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[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=192726[/url]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 4:22:38 PM EDT
Liberal leftist assholes!! Anyone who assists someone that is invading my country (illegally) should have terrorism charges filed against them. Do we have thse idiots in Texas too??Not catholics- the other idiots. [0:)]
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 4:26:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Oslow: [b]Washington, D.C.,- based Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc.[/b] If you are a legal immigrant; why would you worry about getting shot by the Border Patrol. Oh, I see, even their name is B.S. [BS]
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I e-mailed them to that effect. I also chided them for even pretending that a BP officer could shoot to wound as that would be tacit admittance that his life was not in danger. national@cliniclegal.org
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 6:17:10 PM EDT
Once again, the media, politicians, and public policy "think-tanks" all show just how little they understand about modern law enforcement in border states.
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