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Posted: 6/22/2003 10:39:24 AM EDT
My grandpa has a 94 conversion van and the AC is apparently out of freon. About 5 years ago R12 was $50 a pound when I had my old truck recharged, how much is it now? Is it more cost effective to convert the system or to just recharge it with R12?
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 10:53:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:01:01 AM EDT
Have a leak check done on the AC system. The AC in my 92 Chevy 1500 went tits up this winter, so I took it in to get it recharged with R12. When I picked it up from the shop they asked me to bring it back in about a week to see if everything was OK. I did. They found a leak in the compressor, and due to some EPA regulation they had to evacuate the system. $285 of R12 and labor down the drain. Then I was given the option of filling out some paperwork which would be turned over to the State of Texas which would enter my truck into a data base of known R12 leaking vehicles, and thus subjecting me to summary inspections to see if I had put anymore R12 back into the AC in violation of EPA regulations, and face any fines if it was determined that I did put any R12 back in the damn thing. [b]OR[/b] pony up $1400 on the spot to have the system converted to R134a. I opted for the R134a conversion. I figured I was going to get screwed either way, so I might as well take the well hung mouse at the mechanic shop over the the fed/state gov elephant.... YMMV
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:06:17 AM EDT
either way is ok, but r-12 will get colder than 134.
OR pony up $1400 on the spot to have the system converted to R134a. I opted for the R134a conversion. I figured I was going to get screwed either way,
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damn...you did get screwed. $30 kit at wal-mart will convert nearly any AC system over to r134a. takes about 15 minutes.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:15:05 AM EDT
Put R-12 back in it without a doubt! If it wasn't designed for R-134 don't convert it to that! BigDozer66
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:17:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kooter: either way is ok, but r-12 will get colder than 134.
OR pony up $1400 on the spot to have the system converted to R134a. I opted for the R134a conversion. I figured I was going to get screwed either way,
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damn...you did get screwed. $30 kit at wal-mart will convert nearly any AC system over to r134a. takes about 15 minutes.
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A $30 kit will fix a leaking compressor? Awww what the heck. I should just consider it as doing my part to help the economy and to keep an American blue collar worker gainfully employed.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:23:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:47:38 AM EDT
I'm in the exact same situation with my wifes car. The exception is that I know the leak is very minor , takes about 5 month's to leak down and I have the EPA 609 certification to handle R-12 freon. What I opted to do is buy some R-12 off of eBay, I got 7 14oz cans for ~$100., add about 1 lb and buy myself some time. In the mean time I'll buy a electronic A/C leak checker (eBay) ~$50., I bought some MAC guages and hoses $33.50 (eBay), and I'll buy a A/C vacuum pump ~$75.-$125. you guessed it eBay! and I will repair the A/C myself. As a former service rep for a new car dealership I can tell you this: good/honest A/C mechanics are hard to find, and there is alot of room for errors read: mis-diagnosis, return trips and more cost to the customer. "Hey, it's not my fault the A/C on your car keeps springing leaks" To make matters worse, A/C work is very expensive, the conversion van you spoke of most likely has rear air and possibly a rear evaporator core, it will probably hold 5 lbs of freon. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, if I were you I would get some recommendations from friends and family for a good repair shop. Also, The R134a does not cool as good as R12, worse at low engine/compressor speeds (hot, huumid, stop and go traffic) it works at a higher pressure and thus the chances leaks increase. The conversion, on late model cars and trucks is simply a couple of fittings that go on the high and low pressure schrader valves that prevent the accidental servicing of R12 after the conversion. Parts cost about $25. labor is about 15 minutes + flushing the R12 out (R12 and R134a DONOT mix).
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:52:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 11:57:00 AM EDT by Dragracer_Art]
A '94 should already have R134a in it.... My '94 Suburban came from the factory with 134a... My '85 Z28 needed a compressor last year, and I used the factory R12 when it was recharged... R12 works a zillion times better than R134a in my opinion... As far as the R12 to R134a "conversion", It's only a coupla O-rings and an orifice tube I believe... From what I understand, you can use either in the system, but you can't mix them... They each take a specific oil charge that is only compatible with each type of freon. If the AC is "out of freon" then there is a leak somewhere... I'd rather waste R134a on a leak, instead of R12... But like I said, I'll bet it came with R134a from the factory in '94...
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 11:57:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 12:02:32 PM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
Originally Posted By DPeacher: Have a leak check done on the AC system. The AC in my 92 Chevy 1500 went tits up this winter, so I took it in to get it recharged with R12. When I picked it up from the shop they asked me to bring it back in about a week to see if everything was OK. I did. They found a leak in the compressor, and due to some EPA regulation they had to evacuate the system. $285 of R12 and labor down the drain. Then I was given the option of filling out some paperwork which would be turned over to the State of Texas which would enter my truck into a data base of known R12 leaking vehicles, and thus subjecting me to summary inspections to see if I had put anymore R12 back into the AC in violation of EPA regulations, and face any fines if it was determined that I did put any R12 back in the damn thing. [b]OR[/b] pony up $1400 on the spot to have the system converted to R134a. I opted for the R134a conversion. I figured I was going to get screwed either way, so I might as well take the well hung mouse at the mechanic shop over the the fed/state gov elephant.... YMMV
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State of Texas? Damn, I thought you lived in a free state. Thats about the nastiest EPA law I have heard concerning R-12. They coulda just fixed the leak in your R12 system...woulda cost less IMHO. I think you should CHECK OUT THE LAW. I have a feeling that you may find that you were lied to. You might be able to sue them if they mistated the law to get your business. EDITED...I did some searches and found nothing about it. Also, maybe you should have just gone to Mexico and had it filled?
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 12:19:47 PM EDT
A $30 kit will fix a leaking compressor?
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no it won't fix the leak. but a new compressoer is only $329.99. that is at advance auto and was the most expensive since i didn't know what size motor, etc.... the kit is $30. and it has everything you need to do the conversion. $359.99 for parts, if they charged you $1000 for labor i'd go back and knock some heads. would only take a couple of hours(if that) to do the whole swap. depending on your mechanical abilities of course[:)]
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 12:32:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 12:52:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wolfpack: I've got a 99 F-150 with 134 of course and it is colder than the North Pole in just a minute, I also live in Vegas and it averages 105-110 here in the summer, I don't know why people say R-12 is colder...not in my experiences.
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Well your '99 was designed for R134a and not for R-12! If you pulled out all the r134a and changed the oil and recharge with R12 it would blow icicles out the vents! I have a buddy with a Toyota 4x4 '84 model that will blow 34 deg. F air out the vents with R12. Thw newer ones with R134a can only come close to 40 deg. If you look at the evaporator in an older F150 pickup with R12 in it and compare it with your '99 model you will notice the '99 is about twice the size![shock] That is the reason why the R134a doesn't work as good in the older vehicles. You also have to change the oil if you want to go with R134a. BigDozer66
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 12:56:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art: A '94 should already have R134a in it.... My '94 Suburban came from the factory with 134a... My '85 Z28 needed a compressor last year, and I used the factory R12 when it was recharged... R12 works a zillion times better than R134a in my opinion... As far as the R12 to R134a "conversion", It's only a coupla O-rings and an orifice tube I believe... From what I understand, you can use either in the system, but you can't mix them... They each take a specific oil charge that is only compatible with each type of freon. If the AC is "out of freon" then there is a leak somewhere... I'd rather waste R134a on a leak, instead of R12... But like I said, I'll bet it came with R134a from the factory in '94...
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I had a '94 Chevy 1500 pickup that came with R12 in it. Nissan was the first manufacturer that had all their vehicles equipped with R134a in them. BigDozer66
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 1:36:10 PM EDT
As far as the R12 to R134a "conversion", It's only a coupla O-rings and an orifice tube I believe...
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R134A systems use hoses that are forumulated to be much less porous than the ones used in the old R12 systems, because R134A is a much smaller molecule (and thus is more prone to diffusing through the rubber). So, retrofitting for 134A without also installing 134A-rated hoses often leads to slow leaks. Also, there are some incompatability issues between the oils used in both systems. OTOH, putting fresh R12 into an old, repaired system can be expensive, since chances are good that some other part of the system will leak or break within the next several years anyway. Basically, regardless of which route you choose, "doing it right" ain't going to be cheap. For owners of factory R134A systems, there is some good news – they are proving to be less leak-prone as the miles accumulate than the older R12 systems.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 2:50:47 PM EDT
It's not that R12 is colder thatn R134a, it's that it's not as efficient. If the system was designed for R134a, no problem. R134a needs a bigger condenser, evaporator, etc. Putting R134a in a system that is designed for R12 will work, but it will never be able to produce the same temperature drop that R12 can. Ed
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 2:51:42 PM EDT
Find the leak, fix it and recharge the system with Freeze 12. Around here you can buy the 1 lb cans for 7.00 each. Its funny R-12 has been banned but they still make freeze 12. Look at the chemical makeup and its the exact stuff as R12. Ebay has rules about freon....sold only to EPA licensed people. Rick
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