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Posted: 6/21/2003 11:11:14 AM EDT
PW Arms is also the exclusive distributor of Barnaul ammo. No more 7.62x39 for you civilians! --------------------------- 8,000 machine gun kits seized from Redmond arms importer By Mike Carter Seattle Times staff reporter Federal agents seized crates containing nearly 8,000 machine gun kits from a Redmond arms and ammunition importer during a search earlier this week, according to documents filed in U.S. District Court. The weapons were part of a deal between P.W. Arms Inc. and a Chilean arms exporter who was brokering the sale of the weapons from the Chilean Army. According to a search warrant, P.W. Arms had imported 16,000 of the weapons — at a cost of $84 each. The so-called gun "kits" — comprised of a disassembled rifle and including a 20-round magazine and a bayonet — were being advertised in gun trade magazines for $250 each. Importing the rifles would be legal if, according to the court documents, they had been "deactivated" by blow-torching or otherwise permanently removing parts of the gun that allow it to fire several rounds with a pull of the trigger, according to the documents. The rifles could then be rebuilt to fire in a legal, semiautomatic mode, in which a round is fired each time the trigger is pulled. However, the warrant alleges that the Chilean exporter had been instructed by P.W. Arms or one of its partners to leave untouched key portions of the rifles' mechanism that could allow it to fire as a machine gun. The local Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the U.S. Attorney's Office is investigating. Attempts to contact P.W. Arms President Stacy Prineas or his vice president, Doug Work, were not successful yesterday afternoon. ATF agents became aware of the weapons — Brazilian-made FN-FAL assault rifles — after a search in December 2001 of a gun importing business in North Carolina. That business, Interordnance of America, had purchased another 8,000 rifles from the same Chilean dealer and ATF experts determined the weapons still were technically machine guns under U.S. firearms definitions. Last month, the local ATF office was contacted by a P.W. Arms official who told them about the guns in the Redmond warehouse. Investigators suspect that word of the North Carolina raid might have made its way back to Prineas and his partner and Work. The search warrant states that Prineas had attempted to sell thousands of the parts kits to firearms retailers, and that a few of them suspected that the weapons were illegal.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 11:32:41 AM EDT
Thanks for the update.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 12:18:15 PM EDT
Thanks, Keep us up on this please. The "part" may have just been as simple as a safety selector. The rules the ATF goes by are, to say the least "ANAL" Why are Police allowed to have automatic weapons and not the Public? THE Accuracy of fireing on 3rnd burst or FA makes me ponder, what is the purpose of AW's for Law Enforcement? If some of you know, share it please.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 5:05:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2003 5:07:46 PM EDT by warlord]
Yep, agreed, the BATF&E make up really silly rules that are arbitrary & capricious to keep themselves in business and to justify to the USA Congress & people that they are doing something about crime. The handguard my on sporterized Greek Springfield Armory SAR8 had the bipod mount bracket ground away to that it could be sold. What's the thing about "dumb, & dumber?"
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 5:14:21 PM EDT
RESISTANCE is Futile!!!! Until we find out where their families live.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 5:22:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TWHaz: Thanks, Keep us up on this please. The "part" may have just been as simple as a safety selector. The rules the ATF goes by are, to say the least "ANAL" Why are Police allowed to have automatic weapons and not the Public? THE Accuracy of fireing on 3rnd burst or FA makes me ponder, what is the purpose of AW's for Law Enforcement? If some of you know, share it please.
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Umm, not usre where you live, but my chances of personally buying an MG are much higher than me getting issued an MG at work. In fact we can't get AR's because they are "too scary looking" according to the represetative that the People elceted and get to decide budgets around here. I did get yo shoot an MP-5, 60 rounds 1 mag on semi one on auto. In case you are keeping score I've worked for my current employer for 9 years, this was the first and only time I've got to touch a loaded MG. I was able to put 3 round bursts into an area appx the size of a fist on a target 10 yds away, during that second magazine. I probably could have done more rounds in that area, but didn't want to waste the whole mag. on 1 burst.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 6:28:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 6:32:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 3:00:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TWHaz: Why are Police allowed to have automatic weapons and not the Public?
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What planet do you live on? There are more select fire and full auto guns in private collections than in LE armories.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 3:09:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TWHaz: Why are Police allowed to have automatic weapons and not the Public? If some of you know, share it please.
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Hell, you live in Arizona, go buy one!
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 3:13:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By TWHaz: Why are Police allowed to have automatic weapons and not the Public?
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What planet do you live on? There are more select fire and full auto guns in private collections than in LE armories.
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I bet the guns in most LE armories are newer since everybody eles's are at least 17 years old and the youngest. Besides, this won't be the case for long and then we won't have a chance to catch up since the transferrable supply of guns is frozen.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 4:41:24 AM EDT
Why didn't PW do something to remedy the situation before hand? If they had an idea from the I/O raid, why didn't they simply take the 8000 kits, remove the offending part, box 'em all up and drop them off at the local BATF office?
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:09:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CS223: Why didn't PW do something to remedy the situation before hand? If they had an idea from the I/O raid, why didn't they simply take the 8000 kits, remove the offending part, box 'em all up and drop them off at the local BATF office?
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As I read/understood online, [i]they[/i] wouldnt just take the offending part, [i]they[/i] wanted the whole kits....(guess [i]they[/i] are a few FA FALS short![;)]- Thats a Joke ATF man!) The part that kills me is, from the news report, PWA called the ATF.....not like the ATF figured it out, they had to be told, [b]then[/b] they went and got them...... I am SO glad I have never done anything with PWA, I do not have enough fire insurance to have the ATF come after me!
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:12:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 5:20:04 AM EDT by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:26:54 AM EDT
Self preservation TBS, self preservation.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:35:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 5:36:04 AM EDT by offctr]
I know that PW was the importer for such places as Dans here in PA who has for now suspended sale of all Imbel kits but not descrete parts. According to other articles there were 8000 kits in Redmond and another 10000 kits in a warehouse here in PA (non specific if that was Dan's warehouse - there is another importer down the road who deals such things not to the general public but to dealers and wholesalers). I think if Dan had done something improper his FFL would be suspended or revoked and his entire stock--not just kits--impounded (I do not know if they have impounded Dans kits yet it sounds like not, but he has stopped selling them). It sounds as if when the de-mil standards for kits was changed someone did not get the memo. A whole bunch of saw cut kits are out there with not enough materiel removed to consider them properly demilled under the CURRENT guidelines even though they were imported and de-milled a year or two years ago.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:40:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: PW Arms is also the exclusive distributor of Barnaul ammo. No more 7.62x39 for you civilians!
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What? No one imports Wolf anymore?
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:50:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 5:51:43 AM EDT by photoman]
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By TWHaz: Thanks, Keep us up on this please. The "part" may have just been as simple as a safety selector. The rules the ATF goes by are, to say the least "ANAL" Why are Police allowed to have automatic weapons and not the Public? THE Accuracy of fireing on 3rnd burst or FA makes me ponder, what is the purpose of AW's for Law Enforcement? If some of you know, share it please.
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[red]Umm, not usre where you live, but my chances of personally buying an MG are much higher than me getting issued an MG at work. In fact we can't get AR's because they are "too scary looking" according to the represetative that the People elceted and get to decide budgets around here. [/red] I did get yo shoot an MP-5, 60 rounds 1 mag on semi one on auto. In case you are keeping score I've worked for my current employer for 9 years, this was the first and only time I've got to touch a loaded MG. I was able to put 3 round bursts into an area appx the size of a fist on a target 10 yds away, during that second magazine. I probably could have done more rounds in that area, but didn't want to waste the whole mag. on 1 burst.
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Ouch! where are you at?
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 3:49:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2003 3:52:09 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
I'm not gonna name the exact area, but S. Central WI. What gets me is several other area LE agencies are known as much more "liberal", they have "black rifles" Every other agency nearby has a patrol rifle. Some agencies actually HAD M-16A2's, surplused still 3 round burst capable, for a while. At least 2 agencies have/had M-14's, not sure if they had the stuff to make them go FA, but I''m they were REAL M-14's. On of the most "liberal" agencies in the area, only one locally with a "no-chase" policy not only has black rifles but lasers mounted on them.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 4:43:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Originally Posted By TWHaz: Thanks, Keep us up on this please. The "part" may have just been as simple as a safety selector. The rules the ATF goes by are, to say the least "ANAL"
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Come on now, we (the internet gun community at large) know full well that the BATF(E) has been going around collecting up either entire FAL kits or the center part of the receiver from the kits because they were not demilled per BATF(E) specifications. Some talented moron could tig or mig weld one together and have a machine gun.. at least until he tried to fire it and the pressure from the second or third shot caused the welded up reciver to explode and took his damn fool head clean off. It would make the way those Williams aluminum FAL receives failed in hard testing look like a firecracker compared to an H-Bomb. At least one news story has it that PW got in contact with the BATF(E) about having the recievers themselves.
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Correctamundo!! It also sounds like the Warrant was delivered via a knock on the door, and "Hi how ya doin'" [:D], rather than "Tactically". [V] It's my understanding, in this particular investigation, (FAL kits), that govt employees have been respectful, and NOT heavy-handed, even when contacting individual kit purchasers. To those of you who enforce these Un-constitutional laws, thanks for that, at least. [:|]
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 4:58:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CS223: Why didn't PW do something to remedy the situation before hand? If they had an idea from the I/O raid, why didn't they simply take the 8000 kits, remove the offending part, box 'em all up and drop them off at the local BATF office?
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The party in question, is a business. Yes, they knew this stuff was being rounded up. The ATF were not "sticklers" with "private parties", but an importer would have to account for each reciever stub, in it's inventory. The ATF got a warrant, and everyone followed "Process". Like I said, I haven't heard of any "ninja" ops on this, and for that, I'm grateful. On another note, as things progress, I think some folks are seeing some things that may have escaped their notice before, and perhaps atitudes are changing among the troops. (I pray that's the case)
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 5:01:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: PW Arms is also the exclusive distributor of Barnaul ammo. No more 7.62x39 for you civilians!
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What? No one imports Wolf anymore?
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Did anyone actually buy it, and put that shit in a firearm???
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 5:27:22 PM EDT
My M4 loves barnaul. Infact it eats everything I feed it. Runs like a sewing machine. Bob
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