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Posted: 6/20/2003 1:24:32 PM EDT
Pretty scary what just happened. Broward County Animal Control went door to door to every house in my neighborhood with complete records of who you are and how many dogs they have a record of you owning. They were there to check for rabies vaccination compliance. No problem, I get my dogs vaccinated every year. Problem is I didn't pay $25 per dog to the county for rabies tags. I produced reciepts from my vet showing they were both vaccinated and are not due again until august of this year. Didn't matter. I was cited and have 30 days to get them vaccinated and pay $25 per dog for a county tag. They went to EVERY HOUSE, not just those where records indicated a pet. They demanded to know IF you owned cats, dogs, etc. They request my drivers license and I had to PROVE the dogs had in fact been vaccinated. Had I not kept those receipts I would have been fined an additional $65 per dog. It dawned on me how easy it will be to do this concerning guns one day. Just as they were able to obtain records of dog owners from my vet, they can obtain records of gun owners from dealers. This was as random as a vehicle DUI roadblock check. They came with no warrant. It is obvious we have a dog tax here in Broward County. Even more omminous, I learned that Broward Animal Control will be yet another county agency that will come under the control of Broward Sheriff Ken Jenne, the same guy with the AK47 on CNN. Meanwhile 50,000 cats roam the neighborhood. I mentioned this and suggested that could be a better use of tax dollers and their time. They suggested "I" could check out a trap and catch them (as opposed to them actually doing it) and the county would be willing to pick up any I catch. I told them I owned a shovel.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:25:57 PM EDT
Next time....
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:27:43 PM EDT
No offense intended but... you rolled just like they planned.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:31:12 PM EDT
See, Imbro said this shit would happen...!
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:31:57 PM EDT
"You'll take my poodle, from my cold dead hands!"
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:32:22 PM EDT
They do that every couple of months here. Next time I will take a pic because I swear they look like a SWAT team going door to door. 3-4 Crown Vics plus 2 vans going door to door. What a waste of money...
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:33:35 PM EDT
I think it would be funny if you started to breed cats...LOTS of them. As soon as they can eat solid food, I think you should release them into the wild. That would give them animal control assholes something better to do.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:33:55 PM EDT
It's all about $$$$$$$ Our animal control was lumped in with the sheriff dept recently also.... But I don't think there will be any tea parties any time soon....
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:34:36 PM EDT
Something don't fly with that.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:35:17 PM EDT
Are your dogs preban? Do the have muzzle attachments, ie silencers?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:37:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:37:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 1:41:27 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: No offense intended but... you rolled just like they planned.
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How so? They had a record of me owning 2 dogs. They knocked and two dogs started barking. I could have otherwise claimed the dogs were deceased, no longer owned them, etc. I answered the door and they tried to cite me about $75.00 per dog for not being current. I produced my "papers" to prove both were in fact vaccinated. I was cited for not having tags. Didn't see a way around that one. I don't have a hog farm out back. What should I have done? Seriously, I want to know for next year. Editted to add: I did refuse to provide my drivers license, I pointed out my drivers license has nothing to do with my dogs. And should I have told them to "pound sand" they would have just left a bill for about $180. Then the county would have mailed another if it went unpaid. Then they would have suspended my drivers license because that is what they do when you don't pay the county. So at least I managed to save myself about $130 bucks.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:38:42 PM EDT
Styer somthing ain't right.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:39:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 1:41:08 PM EDT by osprey21]
You just got cased.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:40:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I don't have a hog farm out back.
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You are behind......[slap]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:43:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By photoman: Styer somthing ain't right.
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Such as? They were actually animal control. I made a point to ID the guy. I don't think he was accustomed to haveing anyone ask for his ID. And they were actually citing a lot people at a lot of houses. Several of my neighbors who never vaccinated their dogs just got hit for the full amounts. Lots of pissed off people on my block today.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:44:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: Are your dogs preban? Do the have muzzle attachments, ie silencers?
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I have a pre-ban yellow lab with a bayo lug, and a post-ban golden with muzzle attachments.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:44:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I don't have a hog farm out back.
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You are behind......[slap]
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They'd have probably assessed me a certain amount per hog.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:48:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:51:41 PM EDT
I don't like this. The words "unreasonable search and seizure" come to mind, but I am not sure exactly how they might apply. Oh, here is is, what probably cause did they have to come to your house? Is merely having a house and dogs reason enough for the gov't to knock on your door and say "papers please"? I think not. They could have written or telephoned you asking if you still had the dogs...
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:56:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: No offense intended but... you rolled just like they planned.
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How so?
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You said "They came with no warrant" and "They demanded to know IF you owned cats, dogs, etc." Your first post made it sound like you volunteered incriminating information.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:58:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 2:02:32 PM EDT by Dragracer_Art]
Just think of all the money they made today... Looks like robbery to me... I would have told them to go fuck themselves and slammed the door in their face... You should hear me on the phone when telemarketers call. [:D] NOBODY knocking on my door gets respect unless they have a badge or a gun...
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:01:31 PM EDT
Sooooooo, the animal gestapo goes on patrol and they came to your door without a warrant demanding you prove you were in compliance with animal codes. They went to every house regardless if their records showed an animal there. Sorry, even though I comply with the animal taxes, I would have told them to get their sorry asses off my property. I guess next the popo will be going door to door demanding you open your garage door to see if your car is in compliance. Or, as stated before, the "authorities" going door to door to see what guns you have. Does your law say you are subject to random searches ? How about you just let your dogs loose on your property and tell the morons to catch them and check for themselves.......well, never mind, they would just shoot the dogs. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:03:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Emoto: I don't like this. The words "unreasonable search and seizure" come to mind, but I am not sure exactly how they might apply. Oh, here is is, what probably cause did they have to come to your house? Is merely having a house and dogs reason enough for the gov't to knock on your door and say "papers please"? I think not. They could have written or telephoned you asking if you still had the dogs...
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I was wondering the same thing. Love to find a way to sick the ACLU on the county. Their position was basically, they were gonna cite me "unless" I provided documentation. I still got cited for failure to obtain county tags.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:13:34 PM EDT
[size=5]MOLON-LABRADOR !![/SIZE=5]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:14:42 PM EDT
Guys, it's one thing to go knock on a door and DEMAND proof there's no unlicensed animals inside. It's another what specifically happened to [b]SA[/b]. He said his dogs barked at the sound of them at the door. Right there they had cause to ask about whether those animals were vaccinated and tagged properly - if not - they'd surely be fined or have the animals taken to the pound if you tried to slam the door shut or played dumb "Thems not my dogs barking!". I think the ONLY recourse for [b]Steyr[/b] was what he did given the fact that his STUPID ASS DOGS ratted themselves out! j/k about the "stupid ass" remark. [;)] But this does show how easily the Gov will get compliance for their aggressive unwarranted searches and "demands".
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:24:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Pretty scary what just happened. Broward County Animal Control went door to door to every house in my neighborhood with complete records of who you are and how many dogs they have a record of you owning. They were there to check for rabies vaccination compliance. [red]No problem[/red], I get my dogs vaccinated every year. Problem is I didn't pay $25 per dog to the county for rabies tags.
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Let me get this straight. A govt. agent shows up on your doorstep, out of the blue, with no warrant, and demands you prove compliance with "the law", and, it's "no problem"?
I produced reciepts from my vet showing they were both vaccinated and are not due again until august of this year. Didn't matter. I was cited and have 30 days to get them vaccinated and pay $25 per dog for a county tag. They went to EVERY HOUSE, not just those where records indicated a pet. They demanded to know IF you owned cats, dogs, etc. They request my drivers license and I had to PROVE the dogs had in fact been vaccinated. Had I not kept those receipts I would have been fined an additional $65 per dog.
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And, I'll bet, not ONE house all day, told them to get a warrant!!
It dawned on me how easy it will be to do this concerning guns one day. Just as [red]they were able to obtain records of dog owners from my vet[/red], they can obtain records of gun owners from dealers.
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Your Vet gave them confidential info, without a warrant?? (Hello lawsuit)
This was as random as a vehicle DUI roadblock check. They came with no warrant. It is obvious we have a dog tax here in Broward County.
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That's exactly who they are, armed "tax" agents, just like ATF, or IRS.
Even more omminous, I learned that Broward Animal Control will be yet another county agency that will come under the control of Broward Sheriff Ken Jenne, the same guy with the AK47 on CNN. Meanwhile 50,000 cats roam the neighborhood. I mentioned this and suggested that could be a better use of tax dollers and their time. They suggested "I" could check out a trap and catch them (as opposed to them actually doing it) and the county would be willing to pick up any I catch. I told them I owned a shovel.
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I would have told them something else... GET OFF MY PROPERTY!!
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:26:20 PM EDT
Originally posted by SteyrAUG: It dawned on me how easy it will be to do this concerning guns one day.
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Well, I hope you know what to do when that day comes. Shaking down some soccer moms for a stupid animal tax is a little different than trying to disarm (what I hope are) red-blooded Americans. BTW, hogs are nice, but never underestimate the effectiveness of a deep, unmarked grave in a rural county.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:27:42 PM EDT
Also wondering if "Private Property - no Trespassing" signs would insulate me from random compliance checks. I know they won't protect from warrants or even "probably cause" inquiries, but will they keep the county guys away from the door on this stuff?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:29:44 PM EDT
That's just so wrong. We have terrorist flying planes in to big buildings, casing the Brooklyn Bridge and God only knows what else, and Broward County sees fit to come door to door looking for unlicensed dogs. Gestapo, comes to mind.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:31:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 2:39:31 PM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]
This one doesn't pass the smell test... 1. How would such a sweep not constitute an "unreasonable search?" We are to be "secure" in persons and papers and w/o a signed warrant, the authorities are not supposed be able to do sh*t like this. 2. What would [i]their[/i] recourse be if the homeowner said, "Come back with a warrant?"
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:33:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: I would have told them something else... GET OFF MY PROPERTY!!
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I considered it, but did the math. They'd have just billed me for the full amount. They had a record of 2 dogs, I'd have had to prove otherwise. I saved myself $130 bucks. Also I think "Get Off My Property" would probably have resulted in a BSO callout. If my dogs hadn't barked I could have had better options. But I trained them to bark at anyone and everyone on the property. If you have better alternatives or recourse of action, I'd love to hear about it.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:34:19 PM EDT
You should hand them a poop scoop and ask them to clean up the shit in your yard.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:35:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: 2. What would [i]recourse[/i] be if the homeowner said, "Come back with a warrant?"
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With a barking dog in the back, they don't need a warrant. Kinda like coming to the door with a crackpipe in your hand. But this IS just a hint of what's to come though. [V]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:36:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: This one doesn't pass the smell test... 1. How would such a sweep not constitute an "unreasonable search?" We are to be "secure" in persons and papers and w/o a signed warrant, the authorities are not supposed be able to do sh*t like this. 2. What would [i]recourse[/i] be if the homeowner said, "Come back with a warrant?"
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Me and most of my neighbors would like an answer to those questions as well. I'm betting this is county wide. Lots of revenue raised today.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:36:27 PM EDT
They do this every year? WTF? I dont know what to say. This is baaaaaad, very baaaad technique. Its unfortunate your dogs ratted themselves out, but even though they did, I wonder what your county or state dog law reads. What if they were say, transient dogs, and just belong to a sister who was visiting. Would they need a county license? There are certain laws and cases that state evidence in plain or open view can be seized and used, but dogs themselves, dont equate to "evidence" of a crime, IMO. Even as one of the despised "JBT's"on the board, me no likey this. Sets a dangerous precedent, in the sense that if this is successful, what will they come to check next time?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:38:25 PM EDT
I tell you man, its because of the $$$$$. Next time, you should have asked what ordance or code gives him him the right to come to your door and demand proof and if you don't have it you get a ticket. Demand him to site the code specifically! And if the govt person can't, say, "I don't beleive you, come back w/ a warrent. Please leave now as I will contact my attorny about this matter. Good day." It's about the money. Or the lack of money. If they can't raise this tax or that tax or make new taxes for frear of being voted out of office, they'll just enforce the old laws that were "ignored".
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:38:44 PM EDT
Its a FUNDRAISER, plain and simple.Next week they'll be around to see if you applied for a permit for that shed in your backyard ![;D]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:43:57 PM EDT
In the very near furture we will all say "This once was a free country". America has gone to the dogs. pun intended. Rick
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:44:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: They had a record of me owning 2 dogs. They knocked and two dogs started barking. I could have otherwise claimed the dogs were deceased, no longer owned them, etc. I answered the door and they tried to cite me about $75.00 per dog for not being current. I produced my "papers" to prove both were in fact vaccinated. I was cited for not having tags. Didn't see a way around that one. I don't have a hog farm out back. What should I have done? Seriously, I want to know for next year.
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It depends, how important it is to you personally steyr. This is the question we all wrestle with. Where/when, does the ballon go up?? From a tactical standpoint, YOU should control the timing, and the issues, of any confrontation.
Editted to add: I did refuse to provide my drivers license, I pointed out my drivers license has nothing to do with my dogs. And should I have told them to "pound sand" they would have just left a bill for about $180. Then the county would have mailed another if it went unpaid. Then they would have suspended my drivers license because that is what they do when you don't pay the county. So at least I managed to save myself about $130 bucks.
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And, there's the bottom line. It was easier to comply, than the consequences would be for resisting. This is also, a cop employment act, they could just send out 45 day compliance letters, then followup with a visit if they had to. This was a neighborhood sweep, and there was no resistence. In my personal situation, I would have asked for a warrant, taken the 5th, and told them to leave, then used the process to at least point out to a judge what they're doing. That's just me, right now, in the geographical location I'm in. In YOUR shoes, I may have done exactly as you did. This particular situation, certainly would not rise to the level of a violent response.... But a "long train of abuse's".... [;D]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:46:50 PM EDT
"knock and talk"
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:50:23 PM EDT
Imagine for a moment if [b]half[/b] the citizens put up a stink and/or refused to deal with the dog cop gestapo. Just imagine. What a wonderful world it would be... It really is sad that virtually no-one (to our knowledge) resisted in [i]any[/i] way. The Republic is doomed.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:52:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I don't have a hog farm out back.
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You are behind......[slap]
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They'd have probably assessed me a certain amount per hog.
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[ROFL2], [ROFL2], [ROFL2] Oh,Yes indeedy they would!!
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:03:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bobby_the_Hun: Its a FUNDRAISER, plain and simple.Next week they'll be around to see if you applied for a permit for that shed in your backyard ![;D]
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Dude it's not funny. If he had some new construction, like a porch or something, and no building permit displayed, one of them could drop a dime to "Building Codes Enforcement"....
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:06:58 PM EDT
Styer this is what ain't right[red]Just as they were able to obtain records of dog owners from my vet, they can obtain records of gun owners from dealers.[/red] Call your vet and find out if they indeed did get the info from your vet, and if so how, did they have a court order saying the vet had to give up the info? or did they say hey we need this info give it up and the vet said sure here ya go.I know our vet has a thing that they do not give out info about the animals unless the animal has bitten someone, thats the only time that they will release any info to the police and even than if that happened we'd be on the phone with the vet before the police would be. In order for us to get out tags for the dog and the cats we just show proof of imunization, and thats it we pay money get tags all said and done. This was a practice run for the day they come for yer guns man[;)]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:08:14 PM EDT
Should have told them to take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. They didn't have any warrant to enter, and they didn't have any probable cause to check out your dogs. Just because you have dogs doesn't mean that there's probable cause to believe that you've violated the law by not getting them vaccinated. Therefore, no entry, have-a-nice-day-don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-ass. Unless they had records stating that you owned the dogs and had no record stating that they'd been vaccinated.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:11:49 PM EDT
What would happen if you didn't answer the door? and Do these guys carry guns, or just those little noose-on-a-pole things?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:12:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 3:13:44 PM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]
Fellas, worse than [i]what[/i] they did is [i]how[/i] the public responded. Think about it. That sort of practice would end [i]reeeal[/i] quick if just [b]half[/b] the populace refused to comply or asked for warrants. The sorry-ass part about all this is the precedent is sets. We, as Americans, are in deep doo-doo.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:12:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I don't have a hog farm out back.
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Maybe you should. It would make getting rid of the bodies easier[;)] Reminds me of this scene from "Snatch"
Brick Top: You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together. Sol: Would someone mind telling me, who are you? Brick Top: And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig."
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[:D]
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:12:45 PM EDT
taken from the Florida State Statutes from the Board of Veterinary Medicine: All dogs, cats and ferrets 4 months and older MUST be vaccinated by a licensed veterinarian against rabies with a US Govt approved vaccine. Upon vaccination, the vet shall provide the owner and animal control authority with a rabies vaccination certificate. Any inforation contained in the certificate provided to the animal control authority which identifies the owner of the animal veccinated is confidential (only if an animal or person had been exposed to a zoonotic disease can that info be provided). Any person with an animal tag number may receive vaccination certificate info with regard to that animal. Federal, state, and local law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies, other animal control authorites, and emergency and medical response, disease control, or other govt health agencies shall be provided info contained in the certificate for the purpose of controlling the transmission of rabies...however, they must not release such info to the public. This section DOES NOT prohibit or limit municipalities or counties from enacting requirements similar to or more strigent than the provisions of this section for the implementation of rabies-control ordinances. that's what i've got on the topic.. need to mull over the way animal control is going about enforcing the rabies ordinance...
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:18:35 PM EDT
we"l get you Dorathy and your little dog too.[img]http://www.myphotospace.com/hosted/42_Picture 007.jpg[/img].
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