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Posted: 6/19/2003 7:08:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 7:10:47 AM EDT by jrzy]
I have a friend in Pennsylvania and he was asked by two Pennsylvania State troopers to come next door to verify his neighbors where abouts from earlier that day. (neighbor had a problem with x wife) He has a CCW for Pennsylvania and was on his way out anyway so he left the gun strapped on in a holster and he walked next door and the first trooper says for him to freeze, the second trooper grabs his wrists and throws him hard against the police car, they take his 1911 from him and unload it and start interrogating him on why he carrying a gun, he shows them the CCW and they still demand to know why he's carrying. An hour later (he's being detained on the spot) he is told he can go and they instruct him not to reload the gun until he gets to his own property line. They also told him that walking to two cops with a gun like that (holstered) is a good way to get shot, WTF? I am looking to relocate to Pa but if this is the norm there or becoming the norm I think I'll stay here where I know who the enemy is because they all hate guns here. This is in rural Jefferson county by the way.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:17:26 AM EDT
CCW Rule #1: [b]Keep it concealed[/b] Rule #2: [b]See Rule #1[/b] Cops ask him to come next door and as far as they know this guy strapped on his gun to come see the cops. You follow the thought pattern.. I talk to cops all the time when I'm armed; I just don't mention it. They don't ask.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:23:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 7:27:05 AM EDT by Dredd308]
Two things here. 1) Being detained for a little while, is still better than not being allowed to carry at all(NJ).[:P] 2) Its called [b]CCW[/b] for a reason. If the cop saw it, it was [b]Not Concealed[/b]. The paper Philly gave me, when I got my CCW states: [b]Any overt and unnecessary display of firearms in public places can cause alarm and adverse reactions by fellow citizens. Do not create a situation which could result in the revocation of your permit.[/b]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:26:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DavidC: CCW Rule #1: [b]Keep it concealed[/b] Rule #2: [b]See Rule #1[/b] Cops ask him to come next door and as far as they know this guy strapped on his gun to come see the cops. You follow the thought pattern.. I talk to cops all the time when I'm armed; I just don't mention it. They don't ask.
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Regardless it's unacceptable, depending on info we don't have. jrzy when the officers first talked to him did he have the weapon on him, and did they know at that time. If so than what they did is wrong. If not than i can understand a little bit the raction but as the gun was holstered the throwing him on the car thing was totaly messed up. there are three sides to this, your friends, and both troopers, we know your friends, we don't know theirs.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:33:28 AM EDT
Really stupid move on your friend's part. He should consider himself lucky that is all that happened. The Troopers would have been perfectly justified in arresting your friend for "Brandishing a Weapon". See Dredd308's post regarding PA Law "Displaying Firearm in Public Place".
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:39:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 7:40:56 AM EDT by jrzy]
photoman, The gun was in plain view at the time the troopers saw him but the funny thing he was still on him own property,they waited until he got close and then started all this. In jersey it's true it hard to get a CCW but it's not Imposible. The other thing about jersey is I can walk around in a store I own or office I rent or own or any property I control legally (rent or own or lease) with a gun in plain sight. If I wanted to cut the grass in the front yard with a 1911 in a shoulder rig there's not fucking thing the law can say or do about it (legally) Now the reality is that a SWAT team shows up and either shoots me on the spot or lays siege to my home with an ample supply of flash bangs. [:P]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:46:54 AM EDT
Some common sense is needed with CCW. If they truly threw him against the cruiser without provocation that seems a bit much, but put yourself in their situation. A "neighbor" of a man they are looking for in a domestic situation is openly showing a piece? When I lived in PA I got pulled over by a cop late night speeding 25 mph over limit. When he came to my car I gave him my drivers license and CCW permit and told him where my loaded gun was. I was not detained any longer than if I would not have told him about the gun plus I only got a verbal warning and never even had to get out of my car. Common sense is needed. With the privelage to be able to cary a gun goes a greater responsibility. I only wish i could have that responsibility here in the People's republik of Illinois like I did in Pennsy.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:47:32 AM EDT
So they could have asked him to leave the gun at home since he was on his property. Was he on it when they pulled that shit? If so it don't mean shit that they saw the gun execpt that THEY could bew sued.....
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:54:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy: The other thing about jersey is I can walk around in a store I own or office I rent or own or any property I control legally (rent or own or lease) with a gun in plain sight. If I wanted to cut the grass in the front yard with a 1911 in a shoulder rig there's not fucking thing the law can say or do about it (legally) Now the reality is that a SWAT team shows up and either shoots me on the spot or lays siege to my home with an ample supply of flash bangs.
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We have the same law here in Calif., Back when we had the L.A. riots in '92, I've heard that LAPD would confiscated your gun even if you were standing on private property and then drive off leaving you defenseless.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:14:33 AM EDT
With the privelage to be able to cary a gun goes a greater responsibility.
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A citizen bearing arms is not a privilege, it's a right. The PA state constitution says [b]"The Right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned."[/b] (Article I, Section 21).
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:28:27 AM EDT
An aside (okay story, no surprises): Got a speeding ticket by a Trooper weeks ago. After being asked for License,registration, I told him was in wallet in pocket, and glove box. He said "proceed." Got reg, then opened wallet and pulled out license, when he saw CCW permit. "DO YOU HAVE A GUN IN THE CAR !?" "Yes, a Glock in my briefcase, mag loaded, but not chambered. I'm a coach for the Junior League." "GIMME THE BRIEFCASE." I did it real slow, as he looked ready to spring. He took it and set it on my roof (v12 jag), then did the 10min thing in his cruiser. Returned, cut me a break on the speeding, handed me the case, then left. I think he was new, and not used to ccw's.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:35:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 8:37:41 AM EDT by RAVYN]
Hmmm..... I've lived in PA for 20 something years, and I am unaware of any law that doesn't allow open carry. There is a law [6106. (a) ] that says carrying concealed without a permit is illegal....but nothing about carrying open is illegal...................there is a law suit here as far as I can tell. edited to add....not sure if he was open carrying or concealed poorly from reading the post
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:39:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 8:44:22 AM EDT by CR_OPSO]
Sounds like your friend was roughed up for no good reason (by your account - which I'll assume is true). I did think it was funny that for some reason (just by the topic and the poster) I knew this would be about cops. No offense, Jrzy - just seems like you (and your friends) have had several bad experiences with cops. CR
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:52:25 AM EDT
This doesn't sound right. IIRC, open carry is perfectly legal in Pa. I had a CCW there in the early 90's but used to see a few folks carrying openly. If he was carrying openly, then WTF? I had a similiar experience in with the Allentown PD. They got WAAAAY too excited when they saw my CCW permit and found out I had a gun in the car. They cuffed me and stuffed me for nealy an hour "for their safety" while they searched my car. All of this on a traffic stop. I was merely 21 at the time and should have complained, but didn't.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:56:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CR_OPSO: Sounds like your friend was roughed up for no good reason (by your account - which I'll assume is true). I did think it was funny that for some reason (just by the topic and the poster) I knew this would be about cops. No offense, Jrzy - just seems like you (and your friends) have had several bad experiences with cops. CR
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I have had far more good times with Cops then bad my friend, I have some of the best stories in the world from hanging out with my friends who are cops. I don't hate cops as you are implying, I just think no one is special and no one is more important then anyone else. But yes growing up here in NJ has afforded me the chance per se some bad cops in action and even afforded me the hospital visit care of some nice police men. But that was them, not all of them are like that and I have always taken care of my own problems and the bad shit that happened to me while cuffed was resolved to my satisfaction years ago. I had the very unpleasant experience of going to two funerals in the last three years of police officers who I called friends. They were both way to young to die and they both were good cops and great guys. The badges they wore were light as a feather and never weighed them down, good guys both, I'll miss them.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:09:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By CR_OPSO: Sounds like your friend was roughed up for no good reason (by your account - which I'll assume is true). I did think it was funny that for some reason (just by the topic and the poster) I knew this would be about cops. No offense, Jrzy - just seems like you (and your friends) have had several bad experiences with cops. CR
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I don't hate cops as you are implying
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Just to clarify - I wasn't trying to imply that you "hate cops", just that it's a topic you discuss fairly often - at least the one's I remember (and maybe that's the real issue - my selective memory [:)] ). CR
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:23:50 AM EDT
When I got my CCW in York County, I specifically asked the sheriff if open carry was legal. He responded in the affirmative. That might only be for York County though. He did mention that it probably wouldn't be a good idea since some soccer mom might get all bent out of shape and call the police. Gotta love that answer.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:29:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DavidC: CCW Rule #1: [b]Keep it concealed[/b] Rule #2: [b]See Rule #1[/b] Cops ask him to come next door and as far as they know this guy strapped on his gun to come see the cops. You follow the thought pattern.. I talk to cops all the time when I'm armed; I just don't mention it. They don't ask.
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Any one gives me static about open carry on private property, me and they, are gonna have a problem....
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:38:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 9:49:51 AM EDT by jrzy]
Originally Posted By CR_OPSO: Just to clarify - I wasn't trying to imply that you "hate cops", just that it's a topic you discuss fairly often - at least the one's I remember (and maybe that's the real issue - my selective memory CR
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The problem I noticed here (not with you) is that some people don't read the entire post or their reading comp. is way low. I always come on maybe a little to strong but the message is "People, cops or civilians are all the same and no one should get special treatment or be punished harded for being a cop or for being a civilian." There should be no harder punishment for killing a cop or for killing a regular everyday person, both crimes should be severely punished. There should be no slack given when the cops answer the call of domestic violence at the home of a fellow cop but we all know it happens and we all get pissed when they are given breaks that we do not get the benefit of. (no one should ever hit ther wife ,PERIOD!) That's what looks to some around here like cop bashing,it's not but I get accused of it all the time, equal thats all I want.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:45:39 AM EDT
Two things: He could have left the piece in his house and gone back to get it, considering how much of a variation there is in police officers vis-a-vis private ownership (much less carry) of firearms... They could have handled it a little more professionally and a little less on the bully-boy side, especially if it's true that he was merely carrying holstered and not acting threatening plus was legally carrying. This is just my humble opinion, YMMV. Alex
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:46:27 AM EDT
It can't be stressed enough that a civilian with a gun, permit or not, is a danger to officer and public safety. If a civilian wants to carry a gun, he or she should earn the right by graduating from the police academy.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:46:52 AM EDT
Main Entry: ge·sta·po Pronunciation: g&-'stä-(")pO Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -pos Etymology: German, from Geheime Staatspolizei, literally, secret state police Date: 1934 : a secret-police organization employing underhanded and terrorist methods against persons suspected of disloyalty to the regime in power at the time. ************************************** Hmmmmmmmm...............sounds familiar.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 10:06:55 AM EDT
I wasn't even going to respond to this post until I saw the comment that only cops can carry guns. I personaly feel that police should have no more rights than anyone else. In fact I think that as public servants police should have fewer rights as to prevent them from in any way infringing on the general populuses rights. If what was said about the man getting thrown around is true, I feel both officers should go to jail for assult. When one becomes a public servant they are saying that they are willing to protect the people at all cost, which includes their rights. Just my .02 cents
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 10:24:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By moreammoplease: I wasn't even going to respond to this post until I saw the comment that only cops can carry guns.
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Listen, Imbroglio tries to still things up around here. Take him with a grain of salt.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 10:25:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By moreammoplease: I wasn't even going to respond to this post until I saw the comment that only cops can carry guns. I personaly feel that police should have no more rights than anyone else. In fact I think that as public servants police should have fewer rights as to prevent them from in any way infringing on the general populuses rights. If what was said about the man getting thrown around is true, I feel both officers should go to jail for assult. When one becomes a public servant they are saying that they are willing to protect the people at all cost, which includes their rights. Just my .02 cents
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I'm assuming you're responding to Imbroglio's post. Unless he's informing you about the latest email scam, just ignore. (He's our resident [:K]) CR
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:59:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy: . If I wanted to cut the grass in the front yard with a 1911 in a shoulder rig there's not fucking thing the law can say or do about it (legally) [:P]
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AMEN it's our constitutional right!!! No permit needed to open carry it's totally legal.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 2:26:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 2:44:44 PM EDT
So sherrick, you feel that anyone that you don't know is a threat to you? Sorry to tell ya this, but the average person is not a threat to you, anymore so that they are to me. As a matter of fact, the mere fact that you are a cop means that people will be more subserivant in actions to you that they would be to me in a public setting. If it's legal for people to open carry in their state, the cops need to learn the laws, and follow them. A holsterd gun on a non-cop is no more dangerous that a holsterd gun on a cop.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 2:50:19 PM EDT
Hey Sherrick, so even though this is carry the gun and legally so a cop can say "go put it in the house" and since this guy was doing the cops a favor by going over to the house, I say fuckem. I'll go back to my house alright, I just won't come back to help them in their investigation.He has every right to carry that gun.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:08:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: When I got my CCW in York County, I specifically asked the sheriff if open carry was legal. He responded in the affirmative. That might only be for York County though. He did mention that it probably wouldn't be a good idea since some soccer mom might get all bent out of shape and call the police. Gotta love that answer.
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I asked the same question, of the same Sheriff, and got the same answer. I know and sometimes shoot with a couple of Pa State Troopers. The ones I know are top notch guys, and totally pro RKBA and CCW. Pa. Troopers tend to cover a very large area geographically, and with little backup (there's usually another Trooper in the area, but it's about 25 miles to the nearest barracks). The guys I know say they feel safer with CCW being fairly widespread. That's not to say ALL Pa Troopers are like that. One time, I was driving down a little road in southern York County, and came upon a road block. Someone had flipped out and shot his wife and her (apparent) boyfriend with a shotgun and then disappeared into the woods. The roadblock was simply perimeter containment. When I pulled up, I already had my license and CCW out. The cop (County Sheriffs' Deputy) asked if I was carrying and I told him yes, that I had an SP101 in a pocket holster in my right front pocket. I half expected him to do nothing and half expect to be asked to disarm (being from Maryland, this freedom thing hasn't completely chased out the old MSP memories). His response was a big assed grin! "How do you like it? I just bought a snubby in .357 for a backup. I wear it on my ankle". We talked for a minute or two until the cars in front were done and he said have a nice day and if you see the guy call us. Not exactly oppressive. I'd be curious to hear the Trooper's side of the story on jrzy's friend. Maybe he just had a couple of dickhead Troopers. They are rare in my experience. Nothing like Maryland! Most MSP's are total assholes, but that's another story.
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