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Posted: 6/18/2003 8:28:31 PM EDT
Considering the fact that certain alien races/cultures are allowed to breed unchecked and create little domains where they are becoming both the de facto and de jure power, how long will it be untill we are fully Balkanized? If, for the sake of this argument, America does become divided into several different cultures/racial groups, how long would we stay unified? Not long, of course...what happens then? Our culture can not survive as it is now for long...we will have alredy been bred out of numerical superiority (in California, where in in 1960 whites had 90% of the population, we are now a minority). We will either be mongrelized (effectivly destroying us), or we will have to fight back...or go exctinct! Perhaps the Sparta of 2700 years ago can supply a pattern...the Spartans came out of the mountains and enslaved the natives (Messinians and others) then stayed on top for over 700 years...every male Spartan was raised to be a warrior...and on top of the many external "foreign" battles they fought, they conducted an ongoing "secret war" against the subject populace...certainly they didn't breed with them. I came up with this possible parralel after considering the current race riots, and the racial distribution in my area of the state (California). All of the other races are confined to the cities (close to Government subsidies {hey...WE are breeding our own conqurers!})...but go out in the country, up in the mountains, and it is all white...a future Dorian power? Perhaps in the not to distant future, the tread of marching feet will be heard and a new Spartan army will spill out onto the plains... It seems a simple choise to me, as the future is clearly shown in what has happened to California...whites becoming a dwindling and despised race against who all others unite... The greatest country in the world, defeated without a fight? Why? We got rich and lazy (a grave danger the Spartans were well aware of), and we fell to factionalism...because surely our greatest enemy is the White Liberal...
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:26:59 PM EDT
What's so bad about becoming "mongrelized?" Seems to me that will be the only way to get rid of racial tensions. We've already been "mongrelized," in our culture. Do you think American Culture today is the same as it was 200 years ago, or has it been influenced by the waves of immigrants throughout our history? (Hint: I hope you've never eaten a taco or burrito from a Mexican restaurant--hypocrite!) Well, I'll tell ya what, you can have my mongrelized saurkraut and kielbasa when you pry it from my cold dead hands! Our culture will change and evolve regardless of the number of immigrants or non-whites. What REALLY threatens the country is the growing class of people of all races who look to Uncle Sam to provide their bread, butter and shelter every day. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:31:41 PM EDT
Well said, Nick. [beer]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:34:51 PM EDT
Weren't the Spartans bad-ass homosexual warriors? Damn! Another gay thread! But seriously, as the product of mongrelization, I feel it creates a stronger society in the long run. In the meantime there are growing pains of course, and the face of America will change, like it has always changed from day one--nothing new there. People who have tried to fight change have always lost that fight here in the USA.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:48:17 PM EDT
Hmph, I've always preached that American culture is unique in that no one culture can define what it means to be an American. We are a nation of immigrants, from all countries and backgrounds. Tacos and salsa are just as much a part of American culture as hamburgers and hot dogs. The only way we can prevent a collapse is to work together.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:57:16 PM EDT
The Spartans NEVER changed their lifestyle. If something came along that improved life, it was banned and its inventor killed. Their neighbors learned how to kick Sparta blood. Sparta stayed in the past. And is now buried in the past.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:01:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: . The only way we can prevent a collapse is to work together.
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That [b]is[/b]the problem. The 'newcomers' don't want to assimilate- they perpetuate the us versus them problems by wanting to be treated differently. They want the U.S. to change to accomodate [b]them[/b]. We have to speak their language, let them vote in Hamong and fvcking Urdu and Spanish. The rules were put in place here several hundred years ago. If you don't want to play by our rules- stay the fuck where you're at, and enjoy your little bass ackwards 3rd world shit hole.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:19:03 PM EDT
dont feed the trolls
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:19:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By N_Viejo: What's so bad about becoming "mongrelized?" Seems to me that will be the only way to get rid of racial tensions. We've already been "mongrelized," in our culture. Do you think American Culture today is the same as it was 200 years ago, or has it been influenced by the waves of immigrants throughout our history?
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I disagree. We're not becoming "mongrelized", on the contrary. We're becoming more fractured, more divided and more Balkanized with different regions of the country inhabited by people of VASTLY different cultures, values, histories and traditions. Today we have a very rapid expansion of hispanic immigrants in the SW states, many with a clearly less than benign agenda (e.g. "La Reconquista"). People in the largest cities today have VERY different values than more suburban or rural populations. One look at the Red/Blue election map of 2000 shows how Balkanized and dis-integrated our society has become. And the political, economic and cultural divide between blacks and whites (even "mongrelized" blacks) nearly goes without saying. A tendency towards homogeneity in culture, values and language are what keep a nation together and strong. It's not our diversity per se that makes America strong - it's the common underlying principles upon which this nation were founded that give us strength despite the growing diversities that are dividing the nation. Our country, our strength and our prosperity is still riding on the momentum of those awesome principles laid down by the FFs 200+ years ago which were universally upheld and stoked continously up until the last 40 years or so. But with the growing divides in values, language and culture in our population, that momentum will fizzle out due to neglect and apathy towards the original common values that founded this nation. I say could very well be just one generation away from seeing a tectonic shift in the national landscape which would fracture the nation and make the individual pieces ripe for a new Global Union to gather up and "protect".
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:27:11 PM EDT
That isthe problem. The 'newcomers' don't want to assimilate- they perpetuate the us versus them problems by wanting to be treated differently. They want the U.S. to change to accomodate them. We have to speak their language, let them vote in Hamong and fvcking Urdu and Spanish. The rules were put in place here several hundred years ago. If you don't want to play by our rules- stay the fuck where you're at, and enjoy your little bass ackwards 3rd world shit hole.
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I couldn't agree with you more. I thought it was obvious that I was not referring to illegals and/or liberals. To be honest, I couldn't care less about either one of them. When I said "we" I was referring to pro-gun advocates and our "friends." The point I was trying to make is that there is absolutely no reason for us to alienate a segment of potential supporters because of their race or ethnicity. This white man stuff is a bunch of bullshit. I would be considered one of these "mongrels", considering I have everything from Chinese, Polynesian, Portugese, Irish, and more in me. However, all that is irrelevent because no matter what ancestry I have, I'm still a fucking American. Unnecessarily labling me or anyone else as an enemy based on something as trivial as ethnic descent shows a total lack of logical thinking. You should be calling your enemies based on their ideologies and actions, not the color of their skin.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:45:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 10:53:55 PM EDT by liberty86]
HELL YES!! Let's get it on for a bit.
Originally Posted By StormSurge: Considering the fact that certain alien races/cultures are allowed to breed unchecked and create little domains where they are becoming both the de facto and de jure power, how long will it be untill we are fully Balkanized?
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I assume you are speaking of conus. The problem in America is NOT breeding. ONE of the many problems is Immigration. ALL of it.
If, for the sake of this argument, America does become divided into several different cultures/racial groups, how long would we stay unified?
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We Have been broken into such groups since the first CHRISTIANS came here to settle. First it was different white Christian denominations, then later different race's.
Not long, of course...what happens then?
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Same as has been, I 'spose.. Those who choose to live together will, without infringing on their neighbors rights. Those who are assholes, and communists, and SOCIALISTS, will eventually be "Separated", ([:D]) from the rest of us. Kinda like separating goats and sheep, if ya catch my drift.
Our culture can not survive as it is now for long...we will have alredy been bred out of numerical superiority (in California, where in in 1960 whites had 90% of the population, we are now a minority). We will either be mongrelized (effectivly destroying us), or we will have to fight back...or go exctinct!
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Stop the Damn Bus!! You have culture and race confused. AMERICAN "culture", (Those who embrace the Principles of our founding), is NOT defined by "Race". It's a mindset, A BELIEF system. How could you miss this. Were you raised here?? Did you immigrate here? Are you an American?
Perhaps the Sparta of 2700 years ago can supply a pattern...the Spartans came out of the mountains and enslaved the natives (Messinians and others) then stayed on top for over 700 years...every male Spartan was raised to be a warrior...and on top of the many external "foreign" battles they fought, they conducted an ongoing "secret war" against the subject populace...certainly they didn't breed with them.
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A "Secret war"?? You must mean like those "filthy" jews, and mud people are conducting against us Aryans today???? Or do you mean the "Secret war", you and your 13 year old chums are conducting against our "oppressor"?
I came up with this possible parralel after considering the current race riots, and the racial distribution in my area of the state (California). All of the other races are confined to the cities (close to Government subsidies {hey...WE are breeding our own conqurers!})...but go out in the country, up in the mountains, and it is all white...a future Dorian power?
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I'll tell ya stormy old boy, (or girl, whatever), your critical thinking skills are seriously lacking, when you don't know the difference between "culture", and "Race". 'Course, then again, isn't it your crowd that likes to burn books and shut people up, (read death camps) who disagree?? I don't know this Dorian character, but if this post is heading the way it seems, and we DO see SHTF scenerio, it would prolly be a good idea for old Dorian, (and you), to keep his NAZI ASS out of my area of coastal Oregon. He prolly wouldn't "feel" real comfy here, being as how his followers don't even know WTF an American is.
Perhaps in the not to distant future, the tread of marching feet will be heard and a new Spartan army will spill out onto the plains...
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Ya, all 300 of ya nationwide. Your jackboots will sound as the pitter-patter of little rodents feet, as once again you go down in flames. Ya know, if the term Nazi wern't so damn popular, nobody would even hear your squeaking.
It seems a simple choise to me, as the future is clearly shown in what has happened to California...whites becoming a dwindling and despised race against who all others unite...
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Ya, that's what happens when our borders are thrown open, and the citizens don't give a shit until it gets painful. Ask the city dwellers. It's gettin painful. If ya think it's about race, then ya ain't thinkin' at all..
The greatest country in the world, defeated without a fight? Why? We got rich and lazy (a grave danger the Spartans were well aware of), and we fell to factionalism...because surely our greatest enemy is the White Liberal...
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Ya well, if the Spartans were so fuckin bright, what happened to them??? They Died of AIDS??? [snoopy]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:57:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: HELL YES!! Let's get it on for a bit.
Originally Posted By StormSurge: Considering the fact that certain alien races/cultures are allowed to breed unchecked and create little domains where they are becoming both the de facto and de jure power, how long will it be untill we are fully Balkanized?
View Quote
I assume you are speaking of conus. The problem in America is NOT breeding. ONE of the many problems is Immigration. ALL of it.
If, for the sake of this argument, America does become divided into several different cultures/racial groups, how long would we stay unified?
View Quote
We Have been broken into such groups since the first CHRISTIANS came here to settle. First it was different white Christian denominations, then later different race's.
Not long, of course...what happens then?
View Quote
Same as has been, I 'spose.. Those who choose to live together will, without infringing on their neighbors rights. Those who are assholes, and communists, and SOCIALISTS, will eventually be "Separated", ([:D]) from the rest of us. Kinda like separating goats and sheep, if ya catch my drift.
Our culture can not survive as it is now for long...we will have alredy been bred out of numerical superiority (in California, where in in 1960 whites had 90% of the population, we are now a minority). We will either be mongrelized (effectivly destroying us), or we will have to fight back...or go exctinct!
View Quote
Stop the Damn Bus!! You have culture and race confused. AMERICAN "culture", (Those who embrace the Principles of our founding), is NOT defined by "Race". It's a mindset, A BELIEF system. How could you miss this. Were you raised here?? Did you immigrate here? Are you an American?
Perhaps the Sparta of 2700 years ago can supply a pattern...the Spartans came out of the mountains and enslaved the natives (Messinians and others) then stayed on top for over 700 years...every male Spartan was raised to be a warrior...and on top of the many external "foreign" battles they fought, they conducted an ongoing "secret war" against the subject populace...certainly they didn't breed with them.
A "Secret war"?? You must mean like those "filthy" jews, and mud people are conducting against us Aryans today???? Or do you mean the "Secret war", you and your 13 year old chums are conducting against our "oppressor"?
I came up with this possible parralel after considering the current race riots, and the racial distribution in my area of the state (California). All of the other races are confined to the cities (close to Government subsidies {hey...WE are breeding our own conqurers!})...but go out in the country, up in the mountains, and it is all white...a future Dorian power?
View Quote
I'll tell ya stormy old boy, (or girl, whatever), your critical thinking skills are seriously lacking, when you don't know the difference between "culture", and "Race". 'Course, then again, isn't it your crowd that likes to burn books and shut people up, (read death camps) who disagree?? I don't know this Dorian character, but if this post is heading the way it seems, and we DO see SHTF scenerio, it would prolly be a good idea for old Dorian, (and you), to keep his NAZI ASS out of my area of coastal Oregon. He prolly wouldn't "feel" real comfy here, being as how his followers don't even know WTF an American is.
Perhaps in the not to distant future, the tread of marching feet will be heard and a new Spartan army will spill out onto the plains...
View Quote
Ya, all 300 of ya nationwide. Your jackboots will sound as the pitter-patter of little rodents feet, as once again you go down in flames. Ya know, if the term Nazi wern't so damn popular, nobody would even hear your squeaking.
It seems a simple choise to me, as the future is clearly shown in what has happened to California...whites becoming a dwindling and despised race against who all others unite...
View Quote
Ya, that's what happens when our borders are thrown open, and the citizens don't give a shit until it gets painful. Ask the city dwellers. It's gettin painful. If ya think it's about race, then ya ain't thinkin' at all..
The greatest country in the world, defeated without a fight? Why? We got rich and lazy (a grave danger the Spartans were well aware of), and we fell to factionalism...because surely our greatest enemy is the White Liberal...
View Quote
Ya well, if the Spartans were so fuckin bright, what happened to them??? They Died of AIDS??? [snoopy]
View Quote
EXACTLY!!! Its not a [b]racial[/b] problem but rather a [b]culture and beliefs[/b] problem. It is essentially American ideals versus [i]socialism/communism[/i].
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:04:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 11:10:19 PM EDT by Only_Hits_Count]
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Tacos and salsa are just as much a part of American culture as hamburgers and hot dogs. quote] Umm..[size=4][b]Bullshit!!![/size=4][/b] Hamburgers and hot dogs were both created in America.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:09:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Tacos and salsa are just as much a part of American culture as hamburgers and hot dogs. quote] Umm..Bullshit!!![/size=4} Hamburgers and hot dogs were both created in America.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't hamburgers and hot dogs (frankfurters) come from Germany?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:24:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Tacos and salsa are just as much a part of American culture as hamburgers and hot dogs. quote] Umm..Bullshit!!![/size=4] Hamburgers and hot dogs were both created in America.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't hamburgers and hot dogs (frankfurters) come from Germany?
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Hamburg is a [i]city[/i] in Germany, as is Frankfurt. America is credited with the creation of the 'hamburger' and the 'hot dog'. Try google.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:27:40 PM EDT
I'm aware of the cities but if I remember correctly my German teacher told me both were from Germany during our food unit.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:28:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 11:29:52 PM EDT by gman552]
[church lady mode]Hmm, let's see, who allied with the Persians to take out the Athenians? Would that be Sparta?[/church lady mode] [url]http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/history/classic5/pelopo/final.html[/url] So if we want to take this flawed analogy of the new white Spartan power spilling from the mountains onto the plains, does that mean y'all are going to ask the UN to help "reconquer" America from the alien races? As for the lasting impact of Sparta, what it left was an outstanding legacy of bad-ass individual and collective military skill - no mean feat. However, there's not much of any other aspects of Spartan culture - killing off your helots and continously trying to kick your neighbors' asses doesn't leave you much time for wussy, panty-waist, non-bad ass things like scientific research, medicine, etc. The Spartans strike me as being like those aristocratic types who weren't interested in anything unless "they could kill it, eat it, or fuck it." Besides, there have been other cultures which we Americans have fought and beat who had their pretensions to being hellacious warriors. If you want to continue this ancient history analogy, I feel we ought to emulate the Romans. Don't get me wrong, I personally think that if you can't or won't learn to speak, read and write standard American English, you need to get your ass thrown out. Same goes for one's support of the Constitution and for the Republic. It's funny how these attitudes towards immigrants pop up every so often - first it was those damn Germans, Irish, Polish, Scandinavians and Italians coming over in the 1800's, then those friggin' Chinese, Japanese, Filipinos and Vietnamese in the 1900's, now the Mexicans - OK, if they won't become "Americans", then boot their asses out. Sorry about this rant by an American veteran (Desert Storm, US Air Force) of Filipino descent. Edit: "I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here as quick as I could."
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:40:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: I'm aware of the cities but if I remember correctly my German teacher told me both were from Germany during our food unit.
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Weeelll....if your [i]German[/i] teacher said the Germans did it, it must be true!!![:D] here's what I found- most does seem to recolve around German Immigrants in the U.S. http://www.hot-dog.org/hd_history.htm History Of The Hot Dog Sausage is one of the oldest forms of processed food, having been mentioned in Homer's Odyssey as far back as the 9th Century B.C. Frankfurt-am-Main, Germany, is traditionally credited with originating the frankfurter. However, this claim is disputed by those who assert that the popular sausage - known as a "dachshund" or "little-dog" sausage - was created in the late 1600's by Johann Georghehner, a butcher, living in Coburg, Germany. According to this report, Georghehner later traveled to Frankfurt to promote his new product. In 1987, the city of Frankfurt celebrated the 500th birthday of the hot dog in that city. It's said that the frankfurter was developed there in 1487, five years before Christopher Columbus set sail for the new world. The people of Vienna (Wien), Austria, point to the term "wiener" to prove their claim as the birthplace of the hot dog. As it turns out, it is likely that the North American hot dog comes from a widespread common European sausage brought here by butchers of several nationalities. Also in doubt is who first served the dachshund sausage with a roll. One report says a German immigrant sold them, along with milk rolls and sauerkraut, from a push cart in New York City's Bowery during the 1860's. In 1871, Charles Feltman, a German butcher opened up the first Coney Island hot dog stand selling 3,684 dachshund sausages in a milk roll during his first year in business. The year, 1893, was an important date in hot dog history. In Chicago that year, the Colombian Exposition brought hordes of visitors who consumed large quantities of sausages sold by vendors. People liked this food that was easy to eat, convenient and inexpensive. Hot dog historian Bruce Kraig, Ph.D., retired professor emeritus at Roosevelt University, says the Germans always ate the dachshund sausages with bread. Since the sausage culture is German, it is likely that Germans introduced the practice of eating the dachshund sausages, which we today know as the hot dog, nestled in a bun. Also in 1893, sausages became the standard fare at baseball parks. This tradition is believed to have been started by a St. Louis bar owner, Chris Von de Ahe, a German immigrant who also owned the St. Louis Browns major league baseball team. Many hot dog historians chafe at the suggestion that today's hot dog on a bun was introduced during the St. Louis "Louisiana Purchase Exposition" in 1904 by Bavarian concessionaire, Anton Feuchtwanger. As the story goes, he loaned white gloves to his patrons to hold his piping hot sausages and as most of the gloves were not returned, the supply began running low. He reportedly asked his brother-in-law, a baker, for help. The baker improvised long soft rolls that fit the meat - thus inventing the hot dog bun. Kraig says everyone wants to claim the hot dog bun as their own invention, but the most likely scenario is the practice was handed down by German immigrants and gradually became widespread in American culture. Another story that riles serious hot dog historians is how term "hot dog" came about. Some say the word was coined in 1901 at the New York Polo Grounds on a cold April day. Vendors were hawking hot dogs from portable hot water tanks shouting "They're red hot! Get your dachshund sausages while they're red hot!" A New York Journal sports cartoonist, Tad Dorgan, observed the scene and hastily drew a cartoon of barking dachshund sausages nestled warmly in rolls. Not sure how to spell "dachshund" he simply wrote "hot dog!" The cartoon is said to have been a sensation, thus coining the term "hot dog." However, historians have been unable to find this cartoon, despite Dorgan's enormous body of work and his popularity. Kraig, and other culinary historians, point to college magazines where the word "hot dog" began appearing in the 1890s. The term was current at Yale in the fall of 1894,when "dog wagons" sold hot dogs at the dorms. The name was a sarcastic comment on the provenance of the meat. References to dachshund sausages and ultimately hot dogs can be traced to German immigrants in the 1800s. These immigrants brought not only sausages to America, but dachshund dogs. The name most likely began as a joke about the Germans' small, long, thin dogs. In fact, even Germans called the frankfurter a "little-dog" or "dachshund" sausage, thus linking the word "dog" to their popular concoction History of the hamburger Have you ever wondered where the first hamburger on a bun came from? There is a dispute about who made the first hamburger and bun in America, and Seymour, Wisconsin claims that it was first made in their town by Charles Nagreen in 1885. They are so certain about this claim that they even have a Hamburger Hall of Fame. Wisconsin now claims to be "Home of the Hamburger" and holds an annual Burger Festival in August of every year with a ketchup slide, bun toss, and hamburger-eating contest, as well as the "world's largest hamburger parade." The claims are as follows: 1885 - Charlie Nagreen of Seymour, Wisconsin, at the age of 15, sold hamburgers from his ox-drawn food stand at the Outagamie County Fair. He went to the Outagamie County Fair and set up a stand selling meatballs. Business wasn't good and he quickly realized that it was because meatballs were too difficult to eat while strolling around the fair. In a flash of innovation, he flattened the meatballs, placed them between two slices of bread and called his new creation a hamburger. Hamburger Charlie returned to sell hamburgers at the fair every year until his death in 1951. 1891 - Otto Kuasw was a cook in a restaurant on the waterfront in Hamburg, Germany, made a sandwich that the sailors who stopped at the port like very much. It was made with a thin patty of ground beef sausage fried in butter. A fried egg was placed on top of the meat and then placed between two slices of lightly buttered bread. This sandwich as known to the sailors as Deutsches Beefsteak. In 1894, sailors who had been to Hamburg and visited the port of New York, told restaurant owners about Otto's great sandwiches and the restaurants began making the sandwiches for the sailors. It is said that all the sailors had to do was to ask for a "hamburger." 1885 - The family of Frank and Charles Menches from Stark County, Ohio, claim they invented the hamburger while traveling a circuit of fairs at event in the Midwest in the early 1880s. According to legend, the brothers ran out of pork on one particular day when high heat and humidity forced butchers to stop slaughtering pigs. The brothers then substituted ground beef in their sauage patty sandwiches. They called this sandwich the hamburger after Hamburg, New York where the fair was being held.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:17:08 AM EDT
Wow, I don't read that much for school projects. Guess I may as well do a report on hot dogs and hamburgers when I get back next semester.[:)] This seems to paraphrase the history a bit:
"The origin of hamburger is unknown, but the hamburger patty and sandwich were probably brought by 19th-century German immigrants to the United States, where in a matter of decades it came to be considered an archetypal American food." The trademark for the name "cheeseburger" was awarded in 1935 to Louis Ballast of the Humpty Dumpty Drive-In, in Denver, Colorado.
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Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:22:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Only_Hits_Count:
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Tacos and salsa are just as much a part of American culture as hamburgers and hot dogs. quote] Umm..[size=4][b]Bullshit!!![/size=4][/b]
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I watch foodnetwork and it was stated the salsa is the #2 most used condiment (ketchup #1) in the U.S.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:07:15 AM EDT
We Have been broken into such groups since the first CHRISTIANS came here to settle. First it was different white Christian denominations, then later different race's.
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That's easy. Blame it on the Christians. "Here" and elsewhere differeing social and ethnic groups have fought for millenia. Let's get real. One of the biggest causes of this balkanization is the PC version of multiculturalism. Rather than the traditional American concept of the great melting pot, it overemphasizes individual cultures while attacking European (white) culture. It is divisive, not unifying. It creates a tribal mindset. D'Souza hits on this in "Illiberal Education", telling of "minority" blocs in colleges demanding separate dorms, eating areas, etc. What does an American look like? You can't tell from the outside. It's in the heart.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:13:51 AM EDT
What does an American look like? You can't tell from the outside. It's in the heart.
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[bow] [USA]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:35:53 AM EDT
[b]We're becoming more fractured, more divided and more Balkanized with different regions of the country inhabited by people of VASTLY different cultures, values, histories and traditions.[/b] what? there's not a mcdonald's in your 'hood?
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:59:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 4:02:01 AM EDT by raven]
Originally Posted By liberty86: Ya well, if the Spartans were so fuckin bright, what happened to them??? They Died of AIDS??? [snoopy]
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No. Their society made it every difficult to have the high birth rates to maintain itself. There were never a whole lot of Spartans. They adapted their society to dominate their helot slaves who outnumbered Spartans 8-10 to 1. But the way they'd force the men to live in barracks from age 7 to 30 made it hard for them to knock up their wives. They had weird marriage/mating rituals. They'd just put an equal number of men and women into a dark room together, naked. And whoever you walked out with....your wife! Plus, Sparta was constantly at war against the helots, nighboring cities, or Persians. That dragged down the population too. By Roman times, they were gone. Remember, the Spartans were a totalitarian society who organized their society for their own survival and to ensure they'd always dominate their slaves. We're not like that in America.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:10:28 AM EDT
Even if we re-cast this as a cultural war, I don't think the average American has the balls to do what Sparta did. 'American' culture is surely under attack, and no one on this board needs convincing. How to counterattack? Beats me, except homeschool or private schools that teach the truth about Western culture, and let the currupt system take itself down. It is unsustainable. In the meantime, find a way not to live where the socialists dominate. There is no easy answer. Ops
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:21:28 AM EDT
God, this racist shit... 'Imigrants are taking over and over breeding...' [i]They[/i] are going to take over, they only live with each other, they dont associate with us...whine whine whine... That same stupid ignorant bullshit was said about the Irish. The Germans. The Italians. The Poles. And every other immigrant group. The problem isnt immigrants it is ignorant racist idiots that spread bullshit around.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:35:23 AM EDT
All of us living together as one mass of mongerelized peoples is a pipe dream. Go to Benton Harbor, Michigan and be one with the peoples. Arguing this point is rarely productive. When people start to see the riots we have every summer for what they truely are - race riots - and when the shit starts to hit close to home, I believe you will see one of three things people will do: 1. Cower in fear and hope the police help. 2. The more liberal of us will go out to help in the "demonstrations", and eventually be killed or maimed. 3. Some of us, who have thought with truely open minds, will fight to preserve our people. Every race - every species of animal on this planet - fights for its survival. We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:39:26 AM EDT
Silence: Do a word search on "la Reconquista". It's not opposition to people who look different from me that motivates me; it is protecting our nation from assault & erosion. What makes us unique as Americans is not our genetic makeup- there is no "racially pure" American. The thing that sets us apart from other countries is our society built upon the foundation of our Constitution. The preservation of our society means maintaining our national sovereignty. This means the Constitution has higher priority than the UN Charter, the EU, or any other foreign entity or authority. I oppose those who would subvert and undermine the United States of America, regardless of race. I stand by those who would defend the preservation of our nation, regardless of race.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:02:58 AM EDT
brohawk- Yeah, so what? What percentage of actual immigrants are really working to that end? I bet the true number of those working towards it is about the same as number of idiot white supremists 'working' towards their silly masturbatory 'rahowa'. In other words it is a fringe, to use it for racially motivated descrimination is stupid. The huge majority of immigrants into this country are looking for a better life for themselves and their familes. They are not lazy, or criminal, or anyother of the denigrations put forth by some in this very thread. I have dealt with literlly hundreds of immigrants, both legal and illegal, the huge majority of them are damn good people. Granted some are not, but they are the exception, that proves the rule. Give me a couple of immigrants from Mexico over a couple of suburban white kids anyday. They are more trustworthy and harder working (granted this is a generalization). As a matter of fact the racists out there bring about their own fears by attempting to isolate the 'mongrels', they create a sense that the immigrants must 'stick together' in order to protect themselves from the idiot racists out there. But then that is what the racists really want, they really want to be able to point a section of society and blame it for societies problems. When in reality the ones causing the problems are the ones pointing the finger of blame at others instead of at themselves.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:29:52 AM EDT
All empires must fall, ours will too. It is simply a question of how long will ours last. Hopefully we will be recorded as one of the best in the histories of the future. For some rather interesting prognostications about how we will collapse read about the Romans, Athenians, Mayans, Aztecs, Toltecs, the various asians dynasties et. al. None have died the same but regardless they are all history now. Anyone want to guess out fate? I have no idea myself but I am sure it will happen. I don't even know if it will be in my lifetime. Damn, what a downer of a topic.....
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:40:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 6:43:43 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By Silence: God, this racist shit... 'Imigrants are taking over and over breeding...' [i]They[/i] are going to take over, they only live with each other, they dont associate with us...whine whine whine... That same stupid ignorant bullshit was said about the Irish. The Germans. The Italians. The Poles. And every other immigrant group. The problem isnt immigrants it is ignorant racist idiots that spread bullshit around.
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Wrong. The Irish, Germans, Italians, Polish and others never had a PLAN and nation-wide organizations devoted to "liberating" their people and establishing a new nation for their own race right here in the USA:
Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán National Constitution (MEChA) Preamble Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlán must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza ('our Race') with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlán. Article I: Name Section 1. The name of this organization shall be the National Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA). Section 2. The official symbol of this organization shall be the eagle with its wings spread, bearing a macahuittle in one claw and a dynamite stick in the other with the lighted fuse in its beak. The acronym MEChA shall be above the symbol with the phrase "La Union Hace La Fuerza" ('Union Makes Force') below. Article II: Organizational Objectives Section 1. National MEChA outlines the following organizational objectives: A) To strive for educational, cultural, economical, political, and social empowerment within the Chicano community in order to liberate nuestra gente ('our people'); B) To undertake the responsibility of retaining our identity and furthering our cultural awareness; C) To undertake the responsibility of uplifting and mobilizing Chicanos and Chicanas through higher education; D) To implement plans of action concerning Chicanos and Chicanas.
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[URL=http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/05-06-2002/vo18no09_aztlan.htm]Aztlan and Amalgamation[/URL] Excerpt:
The Mexican government and radical "Chicano" groups in this country are pursuing the dream of La Reconquista -- the "re-conquest" of the southwestern United States. "More than a century after the U.S. invasion of Mexico that resulted in the annexation of Texas, Mexicans are 'reoccupying' the territory, but through less violent means and for different reasons," reported Monica Mendel of TheNewsMexico.com news service on March 25th. "Most of these immigrants live in border states like California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico, the same ones Mexico lost when President Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna signed an agreement to end the U.S. invasion in 1848 by ceding 2.5 million square kilometers of Mexican territory to the United States." "The 'reoccupation' of this territory has been slow but steady, and the number of immigrants is growing every year." Citing Conapo's findings, Mendel predicts that during the six-year reign of incumbent Mexican President Vicente Fox, [red]ending in 2006, "two million Mexicans will enter the United States at the rate of approximately 380,000 per year."[/red] . . . [red]In 1993, MEChA cadres at UCLA caused $500,000 in damage in a protest demanding full department status for "Chicano Studies"[/red] -- courses designed to cultivate a revolutionary mind-set among Hispanic students. The program of MEChA's April 1997 national conference at Michigan State University offered a snap-shot of that mind-set: "[red]We must … become a nation within a nation, with a national plan of action as new soldiers in our struggle for national independence, and an emerging XICANO [Chicano] nation.[/red]" Asked about his group's ideology and intentions, Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter replied: "[red]The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it][/red]." [red]Once Aztlan is established, continued Perez, ethnic cleansing would commence: "Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled … opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power." [/red]In their intimidation campaign against the staff of the California Patriot, Berkeley's MEChA thugs offered a foretaste of this ruling philosophy in action. Do MEChA and its Aztlandista allies have the means to match their ambitions? Not yet, obviously. But their terrorist infrastructure is being created, and it grows with each wave of unassimilated immigrants from Mexico. Kosovo offers an ominous parallel: The narco-terrorist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which now governs that Serbian province under UN supervision, recruited much of its membership through campus-based ethnic separatism among ethnic Albanians. And the KLA's campaign to seize Kosovo gained strength through rampant illegal immigration from Serbia's southern neighbor, Albania.
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[img]http://www.thenewamerican.com/images/2002/05-06-2002/aztlanmap.jpg[/img] The problem isn't simply "immigrants", it's that many of these immigrants don't want to become Americans - they want America to become Aztlan. {sorry for the retread}
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:05:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: God, this racist shit... 'Imigrants are taking over and over breeding...' [i]They[/i] are going to take over,
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Umm yeah- that came [i]directly[/i]from the U.S. census bureau.
That same stupid ignorant bullshit was said about the Irish. The Germans. The Italians. The Poles. ....
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1. They didn't sneak in. 2. They had aspirations of being an American [b]and[/b] learning English. 3. We sent mofo's back home if they couldn't pass the test!!! 10% of Ellis Island applicants were returned. 4. You couldn't sneak in and then apply for welfare.
posted by Silence: Yeah, so what? What percentage of actual immigrants are really working to that end?[/q] Maybe you've heard they phrase - if you're not with us, you're against us. Illegal immigrants don't feel any loyaty to this country. What benefit is it to import Indians and Paki's that will work for lower wages in the tech industry?? Why do we take in immigrants from countries taht are (overtly) hostile to use?? Especially when we know in advance that a good percentage of them will overstay their bullshit student/tourist visa??
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:20:42 PM EDT
He who pulls the "racist" card first loses.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:41:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: He who pulls the "racist" card first loses.
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Only if it is pulled to distract, not if it is pulled to expose and denounce the truth.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 1:49:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Only_Hits_Count: Maybe you've heard they phrase - if you're not with us, you're against us.
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Yeap
Illegal immigrants don't feel any loyaty to this country.
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That is one of the reason why our idiotic immigration laws need to be changed. If someone is coming to this country to work, we should encourage them to come, stay, settle down, bring their spouses and kids.
What benefit is it to import Indians and Paki's that will work for lower wages in the tech industry??
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Erm it keeps that industry in THIS country instead of having it go overseas. It helps businesses in the US stay in the US. But I guess you want to export those jobs overseas.
Why do we take in immigrants from countries taht are (overtly) hostile to use??
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Because in most cases the person is not the country.
Especially when we know in advance that a good percentage of them will overstay their bullshit student/tourist visa??
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More reasons why our immigration laws need to be radically changed. That was interesting from a person who asks what the person who started the Socialization of America would do.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:42:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: He who pulls the "racist" card first loses.
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Only if it is pulled to distract, not if it is pulled to expose and denounce the truth.
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I'll buy that. Trouble is, one man's attempt at distraction is another man's legitimate attempt at exposing what he thinks is racism. Very subjective. BTW, you might want to check out the wording of the second-half of your sentence.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:15:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Only_Hits_Count:
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Tacos and salsa are just as much a part of American culture as hamburgers and hot dogs. quote] Umm..Bullshit!!![/size=4] Hamburgers and hot dogs were both created in America.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't hamburgers and hot dogs (frankfurters) come from Germany?
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Hamburg is a [i]city[/i] in Germany, as is Frankfurt. America is credited with the creation of the 'hamburger' and the 'hot dog'. Try google.
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ne can quible about the meaning of the word "create", but the hot dog certainly evolved from the German sasuage. American Beer and, maybe even more importantly, rifles, were based upon the German tradition. And American town parks probably originated from the German immigrant tradition of rifle practice, beer, and sasuage, all good family activities. Just as American culture added the sausage, it also added tacos, enchaladas, and guacamole. These thing are now American too, even though that's not their origin. And it was Italian Americans that gave us wine (we knew about it before they came, but didn't drink it much), pizza, etc. The one thing other cultures haven't added to the "English" culture of this country (with the possible exception of some German influence) is the basic concepts of individual rights, responsibilities, law, ethics, etc. Frankly, these are what made this country, not the excellent food, dance, music, etc., that other cultures contributed. However, not everyone from other cultures represents a threat to the bedrock concepts that makes America free and prosperous. IMO, lots of Cubans, Koreans, and others who have come here have done a good job of adopting many, if not most, of our bedrock culture. The same is also true of people from Eastern Europe.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:27:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:41:09 PM EDT
Anyone interested in reading a copy of an essay I wrote regarding illegal immigration for my Lation Literature class last school year? I got a kick out of it cause my teacher was an ultra liberal who also happens to be a member of humane borders. If there is any interest I'll dig it up and post it.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:01:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Anyone interested in reading a copy of an essay I wrote regarding illegal immigration for my Lation Literature class last school year? I got a kick out of it cause my teacher was an ultra liberal who also happens to be a member of humane borders. If there is any interest I'll dig it up and post it.
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Sure. If its not too big a hassle What was the pansee's reaction to your essay, btw?
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 8:33:18 PM EDT
Bullshit American is Miracle-whip,or mayo! Bob [:D]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:15:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 9:18:15 PM EDT by Corporal_Chaos]
Here it is. Constructive criticism is always appreciated. He just pulled me to the side and told me how he disagreed with my views and yada yada yada. I remained at odds with him for the entire year. When he critiqued my portfolio there was obvious angry directed at me because in short, I told him how worthless I felt the class had been for me, but I always remained a well-mannered tone.
Americans are facing an increasingly difficult problem in an ever increasingly global society. With the wealth and prosperity made possible by a capitalistic system, many Americans have the opportunity to enjoy comfortable and even lavish lifestyles. Unfortunately, others outside of America’s borders wish to steal such wealth for themselves. Illegal immigration is the method being utilized to deprive deserving American citizens of their opportunities and resources. The American government must take the initiative in this battle and should fight the invasion of our homeland like it would fight any armed attack, with swift, brutal force. This essay will analyze the three most significant effects illegal immigration has on the United States, provide insight into what may come if changes are not enacted, and outline how and why decisive action must be taken. The first direct threat to the United States if the U.S. borders are not militarized is the possible economic repercussions that will stem from a variety of causes. Even in a country so powerful as the United States, unemployment and poverty are present among U.S. citizens. By essentially allowing a great number of illegal invaders to remain in the country, legitimate Americans face losing their jobs because those emigrating from third world countries are willing to work for sub-standard wages. This surplus of cheap labor will inevitably damage the U.S economy, possibly irreparably. Aside from stopping illegal immigration at the borders with heavily armed and qualified agents, the government needs to hold accountable any person or corporation caught exploiting this illegal labor. Of equal importance is the drain on U.S. taxpayers that these illegal aliens generate. For some incomprehensible reason, American hospitals provide treatment to aliens that were either injured on their journey across the border or specifically crossed the border for the free medical treatment they knew they would receive. Some foreign women wait until they are ready to give birth before crossing the border so their children can be born on American soil and thus eligible for citizenship. Once naturalized, these people can strain taxpayers through programs such as welfare. It is simply unfair to all Americans, particularly working class Americans, to have to support one’s own family and the family of some irresponsible illegal. Another reason to put an end to illegal immigration is the effect it has on the environment. Anyone who has troubled himself or herself to walk through the desert in the border region knows the impact aliens are having on precious national monuments and forests. Not only do illegal immigrants leave their trash strewn about precariously, but they also make wide and well-worn trails through the desert when crossing in large numbers. These trail are damaging to the already sparse desert plant life and interrupt the necessary separation of humans from wildlife. It is widely regarded that when people and animals become overly familiar with one another a dangerous situation is created for both. Slightly less significant, but nonetheless important is the inevitable increase in pollution in American cities. Naturally, when large groups of people congregate in one area, pollution is bound to occur. Similarly, the larger the group of people the more pollution they create. Adding illegal aliens to an already booming American population will only serve to increase air and water pollution in the cities, not necessarily because illegal aliens are a particularly dirty people, although a look at their native homelands may sometimes suggest this, but more likely because it’s an unavoidable occurrence when dealing with large, “civilized” populations. The third and perhaps most important argument for keeping illegal immigrants out of the United States by means of militarized borders is the issue of security, both national and personal. In our great American society, many enemies threaten the United States, but among them, terrorists are the most frightening. Terrorism, by its nature, is engineered to threaten a nation’s sovereignty and the personal security of that nation’s citizens. Recent events, such as September 11, 2001, reinforce the need to secure U.S. borders because lax borders are what allowed the nineteen perpetrators to infiltrate our land and strike at our people and symbolic buildings with military precision. Also, though the two often coincide with one another, drug smuggling threatens the security of Americans as well. While it is wise to target the demand to eliminate this problem, it is more important to eliminate the temptation, and for that, one must target the supply. When addressing this issue one can’t help but ask how many drug related thefts and murders occur everyday in the United States? A good guess would be far too many. Some opponents of militarizing the borders may say that Americans have a moral obligation to “assist” less privileged people from third world countries. Though this sounds like the proper action to take, it indicates thinking with emotion and not logic. Doing so may threaten the very integrity of the United States and that is a risk many are not willing to take, myself included. Thus, thinking with logic and locking away emotion, the best solution is to militarize all of America’s borders and territorial waters against an often ignored and underestimated enemy, illegal immigrants. However, our friends in the Immigration and Naturalization Service cannot be expected to do this alone. Private citizens should be encouraged to participate in the corralling of our common enemies and should not have to fear the reprisals of some liberal bureaucracy for legitimate and patriotic conduct. Ranchers and outdoorsmen and women alike should be vigilant when enjoying the greatness of America’s wilderness. Together and not divided we can insure the prosperity and safety for future generations while simultaneously building a model for other nations to follow, yet again.
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Link Posted: 6/20/2003 12:45:36 AM EDT
Does this mean I'm not a member of the club anymore because I'm brown? Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:10:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 1:17:11 AM EDT by gman552]
I found this great stuff by Victor Davis Hansen (Cal State Fresno classics professor): [url=http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/mest/mest_preface.html]Mexifornia: A State of Becoming[/url] He's also a regular contributor to the National Review: [url=http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson-archive.asp]NRO Archive[/url] Here's his bio: [url]http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/BIOS/hanson.html[/url] Oh, and f**k the French.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:16:34 AM EDT
GodBlessTexas 6/20/2003 4:45:36 AM Does this mean I'm not a member of the club anymore because I'm brown? Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
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So long as you carry a gun and call yourself an American you're okay in my book.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 5:31:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 5:53:48 AM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 6:52:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ops: Even if we re-cast this as a cultural war, I don't think the average American has the balls to do what Sparta did. 'American' culture is surely under attack, and no one on this board needs convincing. How to counterattack? Beats me, except homeschool or private schools that teach the truth about Western culture, and [red]let the currupt system take itself down. It is unsustainable. In the meantime, find a way not to live where the socialists dominate[/red]. There is no easy answer. Ops
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This is the strategy I am now following, after years of political activism. I am in a rural county, with a fairly conservative population. Small town local cops, and Sheriff deputies. Even if you are a bit strange, it's easier in this environment to know others, and for them to know you. It is my personal belief, that we are not going to reverse the movement to the left in this country. It's progressed too far. We've lost. Those called "Conservative", are drastically expanding govt., and increasing debt. Goes to show, how far the party has shifted left, compared to '94, when they said they wanted to abolish the education dept. Now Bush and Kennedy have expanded it. Ashcroft and Bush have added thousands of ARMED Federal "Law Enforcement" people to the ranks. The Fed., now has over 100,000 armed agents in the Sovereign States.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:03:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Brohawk:
We Have been broken into such groups since the first CHRISTIANS came here to settle. First it was different white Christian denominations, then later different race's.
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That's easy. Blame it on the Christians. "Here" and elsewhere differeing social and ethnic groups have fought for millenia. Let's get real.
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Who the hell is "blaming" Christians?? If ya wanna get real, read my posts will ya??
One of the biggest causes of this balkanization is the PC version of multiculturalism. Rather than the traditional American concept of the great melting pot, it overemphasizes individual cultures while attacking European (white) culture. It is divisive, not unifying. It creates a tribal mindset. D'Souza hits on this in "Illiberal Education", telling of "minority" blocs in colleges demanding separate dorms, eating areas, etc. What does an American look like? You can't tell from the outside. It's in the heart.
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Which is exactly what I said. Being an American, is a "Belief System".
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:29:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: brohawk- Yeah, so what? What percentage of actual immigrants are really working to that end? I bet the true number of those working towards it is about the same as number of idiot white supremists 'working' towards their silly masturbatory 'rahowa'. In other words it is a fringe, to use it for racially motivated descrimination is stupid.
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You may wanna do some research. The Mexican Govt., is supporting the "Aztlan movement, and it is widespread in the south-west. How do you think Richardson, (An Internationalist Socialist), became governor of "New" Mexico???
The huge majority of immigrants into this country are looking for a better life for themselves and their familes. They are not lazy, or criminal, or anyother of the denigrations put forth by some in this very thread.
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Ya, they won't fight for their liberty at home, and YOU think they'll make good Americans, and produce American children!!
I have dealt with literlly hundreds of immigrants, both legal and illegal, the huge majority of them are damn good people. Granted some are not, but they are the exception, that proves the rule. Give me a couple of immigrants from Mexico over a couple of suburban white kids anyday. They are more trustworthy and harder working (granted this is a generalization). As a matter of fact the racists out there bring about their own fears by attempting to isolate the 'mongrels', they create a sense that the immigrants must 'stick together' in order to protect themselves from the idiot racists out there. But then that is what the racists really want, they really want to be able to point a section of society and blame it for societies problems. When in reality the ones causing the problems are the ones pointing the finger of blame at others instead of at themselves.
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What an absoulutly ridicoulous thesis... "Poor Immigrints", come here seeking a better life, and are shit on by American racists. Bullshit! We are educating their children, Paying for their gun shot wounds, paying the hospital bill so they can breed "citizens", and stay in the country. In the past, we had plenty of developement and expansion, and needed immigration. We no longer have that. Send them home, close the borders to ALL immigration for 20 years, to assimilate those here, and throw out those not here legally..
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 7:37:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: He who pulls the "racist" card first loses.
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Only if it is pulled to distract, not if it is pulled to expose and [red]denounce the truth[/red].
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And you're doing a FINE job at it too!!![:D]
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