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Posted: 6/18/2003 8:54:17 AM EDT
There are thousands and thousands of South Koreans who are out in the streets screaming that the u.s. should leave and spewing their hatred towards the u.s., like it was mentioned in that ridicules bbc documentary about world attitudes towards the u.s where it states that more then half of South Koreans have a negative view of the u.s. It is shocking to me that there isn’t a general outcry in the u.s. to pressure the government to pull its troops out. Why should the u.s. leave its soldiers there as sitting ducks if north Korea were to attack when the people that the u.s. has been defending doesn’t even appreciate their presence. It angers me and shocks me that how can a people that have benefited so greatly from the u.s. (for it is a fact that their whole economic prosperity, not to mention their peaceful existence, has solely been because of the u.s. and its presence there) can be so ungrateful and despicable where they are burning the u.s. flag in the streets of soul (while at the same time there are 37 thousand u.s. soldiers defending them) Like I said before, Israel is the only country in the world that receives some help from the u.s. and doesn’t burn its flag, like the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:57:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:05:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TimJ: Because North Korea is worth opposing, and South Korea is worth defending. If the troops left, and North Korea invaded, we'd be sending troops thetre ASAP. This long term troop deployment is cheaper in the long run. Tim A 2/503rd Infantry, 2nd ID, DMZ, 1989
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Well I have to then ask why would we in the future send troops considering the attitudes of the South Koreans themselves. If a majority of them want us out then presumably they are willing to live with the consequences. What I am getting at is why should the u.s. defend them when they lack appreciation and in fact want us out. I can only ask how does it feel to be a u.s. soldier on the DMZ when you know you are defending a country where over 50 percent don’t want you there and where there are even some who are burning your flag?!?!?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:11:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 9:21:24 AM EDT by Zardoz]
It angers me and shocks me that how can a people that have benefited so greatly from the u.s. (for it is a fact that their whole economic prosperity, not to mention their peaceful existence, has solely been because of the u.s. and its presence there) can be so ungrateful and despicable where they are burning the u.s. flag in the streets
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This could (and does) apply to almost every nation in Europe and the far east. Very nearly the entire world prospers today because WE stepped up to the plate in 1941, but that's a whole other subject...
Like I said before, Israel is the only country in the world that receives some help from the u.s. and doesn’t burn its flag, like the rest of the world.
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Don't think it isn't appreciated. Edited to add:
I can only ask how does it feel to be a u.s. soldier on the DMZ when you know you are defending a country where over 50 percent don’t want you there and where there are even some who are burning your flag?!?!?
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When I was in germany, I really didn't give 2/3rds of a shit what the local population thought. They started a war of both conquest and annihilation, and lost. That, and one particular road trip some friends and I took, negated any concern I might have had for the local poulations' feelings on our presence.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:19:26 AM EDT
When I was staioned over there, one thinig became obvious. The protesters were always students. The timeing almost always coincided with exams, (finals) Anyone who has a clue knows the South is MUCH better because we have been there for the last 50 yrs. TXL
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:23:16 AM EDT
The Korean Conflict (War) never officially ended. I don't think any peace aggreement was signed. I think it was a cease fire agreement. History buffs?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:26:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SperlingPE: The Korean Conflict (War) never officially ended. I don't think any peace aggreement was signed. I think it was a cease fire agreement. History buffs?
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You're right; it was only a cease-fire agreement.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:32:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 9:36:30 AM EDT by nightstalker]
As I understand it the troops are somewhat sacrificial, a trip-wire that would compel us to re-enter the conflict there if any NK troops crossed the DMZ either physically or with artillery etc. We avoid the possibility of incremental harassment such as you see in the ME between Israel and the Palestinians by being in the buffer zone. For our troubles we get nuclear blackmail. Go figure. ZARDOZ I'd be interested to hear about your road trip in Germany if you'd like to share.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:14:35 AM EDT
Here we go again. Before I say anything, I'm from South Korea and I watch some of Korean news once a week or so. As I understand, the majority (50%+) DO appreciate the U.S stationary armed forces there do keep commies from coming down. Especially older generations who have been through the wars and suffering of the nation during 1950-1970s. It is the extreme-far-left liberal socialist teachers, college students and kids who know shit about what is really good for South Korea's security. They are like Jacques Chirac when it comes down to U.S. Generally, South Korean presidents were anti-communists and they tried to supress all of this liberal activities from 1960s to early 1990s. Of course they weren't extinguished but they were rather silent, many in prison. It is when Kim Dae-Jung, the liberal president came along and freed way for these liberals. Current South Korean president is also liberal and he also capitalized on anti-U.S sentiment that took place after 2 girls were killed. These two liberal presidents are also pro-North Korea. Now people in South Korea is regretting electing the current president as president because he started to show some deficiencies as a president. (President said it in public first himself) South Korean people are very emotional and sometimes it defies their logic, and that is what happened in anti-U.S demonstrations. You never see any people in ages of 40+. Most people participating in the demos are, as I mentioned above, liberals or younger ones. Not all people in South Korea hate U.S - it is apparent in our lastest presidential election that younger generations preffered President A instead of B, because president B is very anti-communist and somewhat pro-U.S. Somehow the supporting liberals turned anti-U.S to pro-North Korea sentiment (communist). The large portion of younger generations and liberals actually think that unification under the communist regime is not that bad. In contrast, more older generations voted for President B. Another interesting thing is about 70% thinks that they don't have any security problems in Korean peninsula. They need to get out of there and see what is happening. I bet people in South Korea don't see anymore North Korean sufferings and distree on TV because current South Korean government is suppressing the broadcasting of these films because it contradicts their agenda. They used to show it when I was back there. The problem is that media, just like here, tend to be liberal and broadcast the demonstrations and anti-U.S sentiment like it represents the whole South Korea. Somebody please chime in if I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:53:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MaverickMkii: Here we go again. Before I say anything, I'm from South Korea and I watch some of Korean news once a week or so. As I understand, the majority (50%+) DO appreciate the U.S stationary armed forces there do keep commies from coming down. Especially older generations who have been through the wars and suffering of the nation during 1950-1970s. It is the extreme-far-left liberal socialist teachers, college students and kids who know shit about what is really good for South Korea's security. They are like Jacques Chirac when it comes down to U.S. Generally, South Korean presidents were anti-communists and they tried to supress all of this liberal activities from 1960s to early 1990s. Of course they weren't extinguished but they were rather silent, many in prison. It is when Kim Dae-Jung, the liberal president came along and freed way for these liberals. Current South Korean president is also liberal and he also capitalized on anti-U.S sentiment that took place after 2 girls were killed. These two liberal presidents are also pro-North Korea. Now people in South Korea is regretting electing the current president as president because he started to show some deficiencies as a president. (President said it in public first himself) South Korean people are very emotional and sometimes it defies their logic, and that is what happened in anti-U.S demonstrations. You never see any people in ages of 40+. Most people participating in the demos are, as I mentioned above, liberals or younger ones. Not all people in South Korea hate U.S - it is apparent in our lastest presidential election that younger generations preffered President A instead of B, because president B is very anti-communist and somewhat pro-U.S. Somehow the supporting liberals turned anti-U.S to pro-North Korea sentiment (communist). The large portion of younger generations and liberals actually think that unification under the communist regime is not that bad. In contrast, more older generations voted for President B. Another interesting thing is about 70% thinks that they don't have any security problems in Korean peninsula. They need to get out of there and see what is happening. I bet people in South Korea don't see anymore North Korean sufferings and distree on TV because current South Korean government is suppressing the broadcasting of these films because it contradicts their agenda. They used to show it when I was back there. The problem is that media, just like here, tend to be liberal and broadcast the demonstrations and anti-U.S sentiment like it represents the whole South Korea. Somebody please chime in if I'm wrong.
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What you say is true to an extant. Listen, when other countries in the world have their unfavourable opinion, its wrong and despicable (for all we have done for them) but it is somewhat ok for they have the freedom (that we gave them) to do so, but when a country like South Korea who owes its whole economic prowess and peaceful existence solely because of the u.s. there better be at least 90 percent supporting and not the 50+ percent that we are currently seeing. The numbers are too high now to just wash it off as the extreme left for if its really about 50 percent who have a negative view of the u.s. it must be a bit bigger then the extreme. This still leaves me with the valid points I made in my first post.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:56:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 11:07:29 AM EDT by TimJ]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:04:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TimJ:
Originally Posted By IDFM_203: Well I have to then ask why would we in the future send troops considering the attitudes of the South Koreans themselves. If a majority of them want us out then presumably they are willing to live with the consequences. What I am getting at is why should the u.s. defend them when they lack appreciation and in fact want us out.
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I never emt one who was angry, or showed hostility, or who was rude because I was American. Granted I spent three days in Seoul-in and out processing and ione other day when my roomie and I wandered ALL over the city. Every where we went, even when we were the only occidentals we could see, people were very nice to us. Of course we smiled, bowed our heads, and could say please and thank you in Hangul, and did so. Politeness went a long way. We even had folks stop and ask us if they could help us, and had one lady invite us to her house for tea! Near the DMZ people would smile and greet us, offer us water and fruit and such, share their makali and soju, and were generally appreciative of us.
I can only ask how does it feel to be a u.s. soldier on the DMZ when you know you are defending a country where over 50 percent don’t want you there and where there are even some who are burning your flag?!?!?
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Sh*t, there are people right here burning our flag. I feel the same way-F*ck them. I spoke to our KATUSA's about this, some admitted to participating in the demonstrations, mainly because it was the only way they could express themselves. I feel that the riots are started by a very few communist agitators who want to create trouble and destabilize the South. I love Korea and would go back if they were invaded and needed a fat old Infantryman with a ruined heel. Helicopter me up to a mountaintop with my FAL-I'd go. The Korean people I met were a lot like Americans-hard working, ambitious, family oriented, proud. I attended the 9th ROK infantry Divisions Ranger School, and feel strongly that the ROK military could handle anything. They are tough Mofo's.
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Listen, your stories are great but it still doesn’t address the fact that tens of thousands (around a half of million to be exact) were on the streets of Soul demanding that the u.s. leave, plus they elected a president who ran an election where the main theme was anti Americanism and calling for the u.s. to leave. I’m sure there are plenty of good people and I don’t for a second discredit any of your stories or for that matter other good stories that I am sure a lot of you veterans have. With that said I still find it very hard to ignore the recent negative events and reality!
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:12:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:27:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TimJ: There were many million more who DID NOT protest. There are many who protest here against our gov.org, and Clinton got reelected. Doen't mean the whole country wanted the worst of his agenda either. I realize my stories are anecdotal and dated, but I have been there, and lived there for a year. There were riots when I was there, too. Gotta run.
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I hate going around in circles but what you said is a distortion of the truth and not an accurate example. The only reason why the president of South Korea ever got elected was because of his anti American stance, lets not brush off that fact. That was his whole agenda. The people there have spoken and by electing him they have made it clear to the u.s. that there is now a majority(over 50 percent) who don’t view favorablly the u.s. or its presence there. As for your constant u.s. references I guess a better example would be if hypothetically the state of California was under a serious threat from say Mexico and all of a sudden the people of California say they don’t like the u.s. and they want its soldiers out, then yes I would say that perhaps we should leave. (I know its not a great example for untimely I don’t care what Californians say for they are part of the united states, North Korea however is not so we are not losing anything when we leave)
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:29:15 AM EDT
So why are you not calling for our withdrawl from Iraq, Germany, France, and Italy? Why do you not want us to pull all our assests from Isreal? They have screwed us over more then once. Even attacked one our ships. Obviously you are fixated on one situation.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:04:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 12:06:15 PM EDT by IDFM_203]
Originally Posted By ARDOC: So why are you not calling for our withdrawl from Iraq, Germany, France, and Italy? Why do you not want us to pull all our assests from Isreal? They have screwed us over more then once. Even attacked one our ships. Obviously you are fixated on one situation.
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Well I actually do think that we should pull out of these places. If the world is so unappreciative then I do think we should pull out. This will actually be good for in no short time after, you will see some of these countries begging for help from the u.s. just like what happened in Europe’s own area with Kosovo when they begged the u.s. for help. As for Israel. Firstly as I have said before, that unlike the rest of the world, Israel is appreciative of u.s. help. Now with that said though I do think that Israel would indeed be better off with out u.s. help. Let me explain….. Firstly, it is a known fact that Israel only starting getting weapons on mass from the u.s. only after the 1967 war. Before then Israel was receiving if from France. It only gets three billion a year (Israel spends around 14 billion on defence, this comes out of a 70 billion dollar economy) and out of that, 60 to 70 percent of it must be spent in the u.s. (on u.s. weapons) so in effect the u.s. is receiving allot of it in return and this comes at a detriment to Israel’s own first class arms industry which now can indeed alone give Israel all the superiority it needs, indeed it now builds its own tanks and small arms (from the newly tavor that will substitute the m16 to the Uzi) to all the Israeli electronics on its u.s. planes (this was taken from the plane that Israel built but never put it into production for a lack of funds, but can always revive this program if it were to be shut out from the rest of the world) it would be foolish to knock Israel’s arms industry for it is known that Israeli technology is permeated thought out the u.s. military. Israel is the only country in the world that accepts u.s. money and doesn’t burn its flag Don’t make it sound like Israel receives all the aid, it only gets one out of six dollars that the US spends in the middle east. And if you ask me with Israel, it sure gets its money’s worth in terms of the enormous contribution that the US has received in terms of technology (Israeli technology is permeated throughout the US military) intelligence and valuable battlefield experience that Israel has taught the US. Again I welcome the help that the u.s. gives but if it comes with the added cost of the double standard that bush has for it fights terrorism but tells Israel to not fight so it can appease the arabs for its oil,then it is unaccaptable As for the liberty incident, lets get it clear. In 1967 Israel did not have a big relationship with the u.s., as I have said before it was receiving its arms from France, thus it was suspected that that ship was spying on Israel and relying that information to the Arabs(believe me there is plenty of motivation to do this..just think oil). This is not a redicules claim for what benefit would Israel have in attacking a ship from a world super power without being provoked. Israel has enough problems from the Arabs it doesn’t need to get more from a super power.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:12:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: So why are you not calling for our withdrawl from Iraq, Germany, France, and Italy? Why do you not want us to pull all our assests from Isreal? They have screwed us over more then once. Even attacked one our ships. Obviously you are fixated on one situation.
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These are our assessts. They allow us to keep an eye on everything, and besides as someone mentioned shipping out troops everytime something happened would get expensive quick. Having little home bases around the world makes for quick action.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:36:15 PM EDT
Obviously you haven't been in the military stationed overseas, in Berlin they protested us ever chance they got, threw themselves in front of our busses, told us to go home, and make us work longer hours. Did I like it no, but we gave them the freedom to do that. Did the younger generation have a clue as to why we were there, NO, to them WW2 didn't happen, didn't exist. Any country that we have military installions go through this for what ever reason. What these idiots don't realize is if we do pull out, most of their economic base is gone. We employ alot of nationals at every installation. Korea was only a cease fire,and it would not be feasible to pull out of there. If the shtf we would have to be right back there. At least if we are there it keeps them at bay, and they hopefully realise that we could inflict more damange than they could.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:41:06 PM EDT
I'm hoping with the mention of Israel, things don't degrade too quickly, but... With respect to U.S. military support after '67: I recently reread Moshe Dayan's bio. (a great read btw, I highly recommend it) My take is that the U.S. gave embarassingly little aid to Israel during the Six Day war, War of Attrition and Yom Kippur . We were reluctant to sell Israel arms even through the '73 Yom Kippur attacks by Arabs. During which Dayan talks about how U.S. was unwilling to sell Israel the arms they needed for the war. Later in the war, the U.S. did step up with arms and other support. But the U.S. was not falling over itself trying to support Israel. Dayan's analysis was that the U.S. was unwilling to risk oil embargo and Arab backlash by supporting Israel. That's the way I read it from a man who should know. -Z
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:43:05 PM EDT
You just can't satisfy straight citizens and lieberals at the same time. I'm also afraid that 85%+ of South Korean citizens should be supporting U.S forces, although some of U.S soldiers killed two girls, accidentally or whatever the cause. I feel sad for the girls but you just can't trade a nation's security because of issues like that. I can understand why people are hating U.S because of the unfair trial that took place but still you just can't go blazing about it in public with such numbers participating in major demonstrations. On the other hand, U.S do need to loosen some terms with South Korean government about missile ranges and military in general but let's not talk about that here. It's a separate issue. I think it is some kind of a trend going on world here. You know, it seems more liberals and socialists are fucking things up starting from 1990s. As to the South Korean liberals, actually I do want U.S to say (or fake) that U.S is pulling out of South Korea. You might see some major demonstrations about it but what I really want to see to satisfy many Americans feeling this way is that pro-U.S folks in Korea actually go against lieberals, in HUGE numbers. But then citizens living there will be put in danger. They don't have guns either, since civilian ownership of firearms is virtually banned in Korea.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:22:21 PM EDT
We have a lot more to gain by leaving Isreal then South Korea. Millions of people dont hate us and try to blow up our buildings because we are in Korea. We have a lot more to lose and a lot not much to gain by helping the Isrealis. WHAT DO WE HAVE TO GAIN? The money you are talking about is a piss in the bucket compared to our trade with the East. There is no comparison so dont even try to compare economies. Isreal's economy doesnt even rate against a third world Asian country. 14 billion? GM spent more then that in one day to buy controlling interest in the Korean car companies. The Isrealis did know the Liberty was American and attacked it anyway. This is not a proper way to treat your allies. So we were not close allies at the time, thats an excuse to kill Americans? I bet we would get huge amounts of good will if we cut off all aid to Isreal. As far as your reference to intelligence, a lot of good it did with the search for WMDs. The intelligence is obviously lacking so it would not be a big loss. Most of that technology is technology that was stolen from American companies. One of the biggest industrial espionage campaigns is run by the Jews. The Russians, Chinese, and yes the Koreans too all spy on us. The Isrealis have only applied what we have researched.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:38:40 PM EDT
for it is a fact that their whole economic prosperity, not to mention their peaceful existence, has solely been because of the u.s. and its presence there
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I beg to differ. My Father spent some time there in the fifties living in trenches and being shot at. He was with the 2RCR.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:52:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: We have a lot more to gain by leaving Isreal then South Korea. Millions of people dont hate us and try to blow up our buildings because we are in Korea. We have a lot more to lose and a lot not much to gain by helping the Isrealis. WHAT DO WE HAVE TO GAIN? The money you are talking about is a piss in the bucket compared to our trade with the East. There is no comparison so dont even try to compare economies. Isreal's economy doesnt even rate against a third world Asian country. 14 billion? GM spent more then that in one day to buy controlling interest in the Korean car companies. The Isrealis did know the Liberty was American and attacked it anyway. This is not a proper way to treat your allies. So we were not close allies at the time, thats an excuse to kill Americans? I bet we would get huge amounts of good will if we cut off all aid to Isreal. As far as your reference to intelligence, a lot of good it did with the search for WMDs. The intelligence is obviously lacking so it would not be a big loss. Most of that technology is technology that was stolen from American companies. One of the biggest industrial espionage campaigns is run by the Jews. The Russians, Chinese, and yes the Koreans too all spy on us. The Isrealis have only applied what we have researched.
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Wow were to start?! First you obviously misunderstood my 14 billion dollar comment for I didn’t mean it to mean that it can compete with other countries but was implying that what the u.s. gives to Israel is a piss in the bucket(for it only gets three billion out of the 14 billion that it needs and spends each year on defense) for Israel spends out of its own pocket 11 billion thus it does spend most of its own money on its own defence. Lets get this straight. The u.s. is not in Israel but provides some help. Where as the u.s. is in South Korea and is facing a situation where the North Koreans can nuke all of the u.s. troops there. To me that is a bigger threat. As for the liberty. I never said that just because the u.s. and Israel weren’t allies at the time this gives an excuse for Israel to kill Americans (I don’t think that any sane individual who read that though what you said)all I was saying is the fact that there was a good suspicion on Israel’s behalf that the u.s. was working against Israel. I guess I can propose the same question to you. Even if the u.s. and Israel were not close what gives the u.s. the right to endanger Israel’s own security by spying on Israel in its stupid bid to constantly appease the Arabs for its oil. If you look at the situation with out any bias (which is obvious that you have) why would Israel out of the blue attack a ship of a super power. Israel was fighting a war for its own survival against enemies on all sides of the border why would it want to suddenly invite the americnas to fight against them.??????? Its just preposterous to constantly fabricate that lie. As for your stolen comment, that is just ridicules for yes all countries spy on each other including the u.s. on Israel but to say that every invention or improvement on existing technology that Israel has done is based on stolen technology is preposterous and totally baseless. Its great that you are looking to sacrifice the Jews who share the same values as this country, who has been there and as I have stated before reciprocated alot to the u.s., for the support of the Arabs, who shit all over this great country. It just shows your ignorance and foolishness. I started this post as a proud American where I was disgusted at people or countries who get our help but then spit on our faces, that then there would be people who would turn around and blame all the problems on the Jews and say that Israel is really the country that we should not be helping shows the problem of the blatant anti Semitism that some people harbour here. For to say that, Israel which is the only country in the world that actually appreciates u.s. help, is actually worse then South Korea and other countries who don’t appreciate this help. Shows clearly the bias and the stupidity on your part.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:53:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:55:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 2:09:34 PM EDT by ARDOC]
IDF, you have that typical we are special mentality or as you would say, the "chosen people" mentality. I dated a jewish girl with the same mentality in college and she couldnt understand that the word holocaust is not a jewish word. She didnt think it was horrible that millions of Turks have died, millions of Cambodians have died, millions of Russians, it was only important that jews were killed. So we should only help Isreal and forget the ramifications that may follow. Isrealis are Jews that is a fact. I have no problem with Jews and many of my friends are Jews. That has no bearing on the fact that to single out the Isrealis and to only help them is ridiculous. IDF, is failing to recoginze that every country that we have troops there are demonstrations. Germany, the Philippines, all have recently had demonstrations against us. Yet he fails to mention this. The majority of the people in these countries like the Americans there. A few dont like us. There even more Americans that dont like us. Just look at Hollywood. So by your reasoning, we should send all our troops out of the US as well or at least California.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:09:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: IDF, you have that typical we are special mentality or as you would say, the "chosen people" mentality. I dated a jewish girl with the same mentality in college and she couldnt understand that the word holocaust is not a jewish word. She didnt think it was horrible that millions of Turks have died, millions of Cambodians have died, millions of Russians, it was only important that jews were killed. So we should only help Isreal and forget the ramifications that may follow.
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That’s such a stupid argument. Notwithstanding one stupid girl (obviously for she dated you), Most Jews recognise that there were millions more (much more then the 6 million) who died that were not Jewish. I don’t particularly feel that we are special in fact the only times that I do is when you anti Semites spew your lies about how rich and powerful we supposedly are and then I get to thinking if only what you were saying were true for I would love to be rich and I have plenty of Jewish friends who would also love to be rich. (I sincerely hope you are getting my point here). Like I said before I wouldn’t mind if Israel stopped getting help although I do appreciate that we do get it. That is my point, as an American and I am sure most Americans can agree that if we are helping countries, we should help ones that appreciate it and say thank you and not to give that to countries who take the money and then turn around and spit on you and burn your flag. Hey ARDOC if you got your head out of your blatant anti Semitism for a second what I am saying wouldn’t be too difficult to understand.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:14:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 2:17:09 PM EDT by ARDOC]
IDF you are the one blatantly stupid. The stupidity thing that you pointed out in my girlfriend must be common. As far as being anti-semetic thats not true, I was merely returning the favor. You have singled out one country. Open your eyes and see the rest. The argument you make applies to many countries. Instead of fixating on your one ridiculous idea, apply it fairly to everyone.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:21:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: IDF, is failing to recoginze that every country that we have troops there are demonstrations. Germany, the Philippines, all have recently had demonstrations against us. Yet he fails to mention this. The majority of the people in these countries like the Americans there. A few dont like us. There even more Americans that dont like us. Just look at Hollywood. So by your reasoning, we should send all our troops out of the US as well or at least California.
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I have made it clear that we should be asking ourselves why are we still there. But frankly your comparisons are quite stupid, for there is a big difference between Germany and the Philippians and the situation in South Korea. In Germany and the Philippines there is some justification (although I see it as a lack of appreciation)in their demonstration for the u.s. is not there defending their countries but is there for its own self interests(in Germany it serves as a forward base for operations in other countries and in the Philippians it is there to hunt al queada) but in South Korea the demonstrators lack any such justification for the u.s. is there to solely provide defence for South Korea. I must say that you truly have a deep lack of any real understanding of the geopolitical realities of this world. As for you California reference as I have made clear before, that it also different, for even if the people were to say that they don’t want protection, it would be a baseless proposal for it is not for them solely to say for they are part of the united states and not some other country like in South Korea.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:29:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 2:31:37 PM EDT by ARDOC]
You dont think we are protecting our own interests in Korea? Look inside your computer and see how many of the chips are made in Korea, Intel subcontracts huge amounts of chips and boards from Korea. We have a huge economic stake in the health of out allies. That is why we are there. So your argument that the US is there to just protect the Koreans is bullshit. Daewoo, Hyndai, Kia are all owned partially by AMERICANS. Ford and GM have CONTROLLING stakes there. So get your head out your ass and smell the coffee. What do you think would happen to our economy if the commies over ran the South? Your argument does apply to Hollywood. We sould get out since we are there only to protect them and they dont appreciate us.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:30:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:32:26 PM EDT
Sylvan, has anyone told you, you were a smart ass? :o)
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:39:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: ----> millions of Turks have died <-----
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Um.... isn't that supposed to read: "Millions of Christian ARMENIANS died at the hands of the evil Muslim TURKS" ? [;D]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:42:37 PM EDT
RBAD is correct! But it really doesnt matter who, its just sad that such horrible things have happened. We as a species have killed more our own and much more effectively then any disease.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:44:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:54:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: You dont think we are protecting our own interests in Korea? Look inside your computer and see how many of the chips are made in Korea, Intel subcontracts huge amounts of chips and boards from Korea. We have a huge economic stake in the health of out allies. That is why we are there. So your argument that the US is there to just protect the Koreans is bullshit. Daewoo, Hyndai, Kia are all owned partially by AMERICANS. Ford and GM have CONTROLLING stakes there. So get your head out your ass and smell the coffee. What do you think would happen to our economy if the commies over ran the South? Your argument does apply to Hollywood. We sould get out since we are there only to protect them and they dont appreciate us.
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Oh now I get it. So let me see if I get this straight. 37 thousand troops are in harms way to be potentially sacrificed to protect these few companies for if not then the whole u.s. economy would collapse. Boy thanks for clearing that up for me for I never realised that we depended on South Korea for our economic prowess. Boy you really are dense. Yes we have economic interest but it is not on the level where it justifies our continued presence. South Korea is a country where you cant say that the u.s. has been there all these years solely for its own economic reasons (in other countries like Germany and Japan you can indeed say that) for it has been there mostly for ideological reasons in its fight against communism (which is an ideological battle) with that fact in mind it is time to question why we are still there if there are many south Koreans who do not appreciate our presence and want us out. Let me make it clear. In principle I feel that we should stay for that is the right thing to do but when the people that we are protecting don’t want us there then we need to ask some serious questions.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:58:56 PM EDT
You need to go back to Economics 101. You dont think the collapse of FORD and GM would not have catastophic effects on the US economy? I think there are lots of GM and Ford employees that would disagree with you. You are calling me dense?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:04:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RBAD:
Originally Posted By ARDOC: ----> millions of Turks have died <-----
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Um.... isn't that supposed to read: "Millions of Christian ARMENIANS died at the hands of the evil Muslim TURKS" ? [;D]
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Thanks for reminding everyone. Turkey still denies it to this day. Excellent movie "Ararat" available at a video store near you. -Z
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:10:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: You need to go back to Economics 101. You dont think the collapse of FORD and GM would not have catastophic effects on the US economy? I think there are lots of GM and Ford employees that would disagree with you. You are calling me dense?
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Yes you are dense if you are saying that GM and Ford is only here because of its stake in companies like Daewoo, Hyundai, Kia . Yes they generate revenue for GM and Ford but it is not the sole lifeblood of the companies for yes GM and Ford would hurt if those Korean companies were to fold but it wouldn’t cause them (GM and Ford) to collapse. Anyhow it still doesn’t justify 37 thousand soldiers dying to just protect these companies. (Which is what you are saying that we are doing there)
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:19:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:36:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TimJ: Let's put it this way-if there were no Americans in Korea and North Korea invaded, how long would it take for the U.S. to send in troops? 15 minutes? 20? Bet your bootie they'd be there. This is one case of preventing a war by our prescence, and I'm for it. Look, we support Israel, more than just a little. For what reason? Economic or moral? What's wrong when that's applied to our Asian friends? North Korea is a despotic Stalinist state. Let's deter them. That p*ssy Truman should have let MacArthur nuke them back into the stone age (Back to School). But he didn't, so here we are.
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Look I agree with you on principle all I am asking here is how can we continue to give support when over 50 percent of the population that you are protecting wants you out(where there even some who are burning your flag)
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:42:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 3:43:38 PM EDT by Balzac72]
IDFM, maybe you should take a less antagonistic tone to your posts. From the beginning, you're taunting the people who are giving it to you in their language. If you want the real history, go read a damn history book. You think we shouldn't be there, good for you...who made you the damn authority on South Korean policy? It seems that you do not truly understand INTERNATIONAL POLICY, which isn't just about working with people that LIKE us. If we worried about what the civilians of other countries think, do you think we'd get much done? Did you THINK for maybe a second that those polls are run by the equivelent of our CNN, which would tend to have a more liberal (anti-US) bias? You're giving too much credibility to the polls, which might be an attempt to influence people like you who don't get the full picture. Did you ponder that? Every country knows that since Vietnam, the US is sensitive to public opinion. Don't you think that may be an influencing factor to this whole poll? If you polled Americans and asked if we should continue our use of Ramstein base in Germany, do you think we'd all say YES? NO, we'd want nothing to do with those assholes in that country and Eurotrash in general! Does that make the base any less important to US interests abroad??? Think about our strategic military interests and our ability to have a US presence on China's backdoor. Think about a major US military presence in Asia. Don't cry about Korean public opinion, because their opinion means SHIT. Now go about your snide comments to the people nice enough to answer your posts with their civil tones.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 4:05:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: IDFM, maybe you should take a less antagonistic tone to your posts. From the beginning, you're taunting the people who are giving it to you in their language. If you want the real history, go read a damn history book. You think we shouldn't be there, good for you...who made you the damn authority on South Korean policy? It seems that you do not truly understand INTERNATIONAL POLICY, which isn't just about working with people that LIKE us. If we worried about what the civilians of other countries think, do you think we'd get much done? Did you THINK for maybe a second that those polls are run by the equivelent of our CNN, which would tend to have a more liberal (anti-US) bias? You're giving too much credibility to the polls, which might be an attempt to influence people like you who don't get the full picture. Did you ponder that? Every country knows that since Vietnam, the US is sensitive to public opinion. Don't you think that may be an influencing factor to this whole poll? If you polled Americans and asked if we should continue our use of Ramstein base in Germany, do you think we'd all say YES? NO, we'd want nothing to do with those assholes in that country and Eurotrash in general! Does that make the base any less important to US interests abroad??? Think about our strategic military interests and our ability to have a US presence on China's backdoor. Think about a major US military presence in Asia. Don't cry about Korean public opinion, because their opinion means SHIT. Now go about your snide comments to the people nice enough to answer your posts with their civil tones.
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If you go over this thread you will see that I changed my tone a bit in response to the snide personal comments that I was getting. I guess someone blaming the Jews and saying that they are worse then the South Koreans (even though most Jews support the u.s. where that is not the case in South Korea) is for you nice civil tones. I never looked at the polls. What I looked at is the tens of thousands of people who were on the streets demanding the u.s. leave and them electing a president solely on his anti u.s. stance. Those aren’t made up media figures but concrete fact that there is a problem in South Korea. I never said we should leave Germany for I do recognise its importance (As I have stated before in this thread). What makes South Korea different is that the u.s. is there on ideological reasons and when a majority of the population want them out then we have to ask some serious questions. I never said I was an authority on South Korea all I was saying is that as an American I have a right to ask why our soldiers are risking their lives for a country that doesn’t want them there. Its interesting how you attack me for my snide remarks but then you yourself throw one at me with I don’t understand "INTERNATIONAL POLICY" remark (implied here that I don’t but you do…what arrogance!!). I understand enough foreign policy to be able to ask the valid questions that I have. Yes it is a backdoor to china but it is not our only one. There are a lot of other countries (like Japan and Taiwan to just name a few) that can provide that service. I find it amazing how you can spew anger at me for just asking why are our fellow soldiers in harms way. Even if my reasoning is wrong, I feel that any American wouldn’t show the anger at me for my simple concern for the safety of our troops. I am only left to ponder why you have that angry tone towards me!
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 4:29:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IDFM_203: If you go over this thread you will see that I changed my tone a bit in response to the snide personal comments that I was getting. I guess someone blaming the Jews and saying that they are worse then the South Koreans (even though most Jews support the u.s. where that is not the case in South Korea) is for you nice civil tones.
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Don't turn this into something about jews, because ARDoc's comments although wierd, don't show he's an anti semite. Only shows a bad choice in words IMHO.
I never looked at the polls. What I looked at is the [red]tens of thousands of people who were on the streets demanding the u.s. leave[/red] and them electing a president solely on his anti u.s. stance. Those aren’t made up media figures but concrete fact that there is a problem in South Korea.
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Big f'n deal! There were MILLIONS OF AMERICANS protesting the war in Iraq, yet there was a 65% approval rating for the war!
I never said we should leave Germany for I do recognise its importance (As I have stated before in this thread). What makes South Korea different is that the u.s. is there on ideological reasons and when a majority of the population want them out then we have to ask some serious questions.
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Yes, and here's question #1 - Who said that there's a majority that wants us out? And of that "majority" how many of them remember what happened during the Korean war? How outspoken are the supporters of America? In case you didn't notice, when people support something, they don't tend to be extremely vocal about it. But when somene (or group) is protesting, they tend to be VERY outspoken. (Think liberal fuckstick hippies marching in every city over Iraq.)
I never said I was an authority on South Korea all I was saying is that as an American I have a right to ask why our soldiers are risking their lives for a country that doesn’t want them there.
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Look at the next quote below, I still don't think you're grasping this "international policy" thing. Here's a thought...maybe we're not just protecting S. Korea...but...THE WORLD FROM N Korea AND China!?! There's a novel idea.
Its interesting how you attack me for my snide remarks but then you yourself throw one at me with I don’t understand "INTERNATIONAL POLICY" remark (implied here that I don’t but you do…what arrogance!!). I understand enough foreign policy to be able to ask the valid questions that I have.
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The "arrogance" you're picking up was exactly what I got from you, when Timj was explaining his experiences. Guess what? His EXPERIENCES speak louder than the news stories you're reading. ITS FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE and you're dismissing him and what he has to say. Have more respect for people who have "been there and done that."
Yes it is a backdoor to china but it is not our only one. There are a lot of other countries (like Japan and Taiwan to just name a few) that can provide that service.
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Yeah, but we're in S Korea, why should we pull out? Because the civies don't want us there? HA!
I find it amazing how you can spew anger at me for just asking why are our fellow soldiers in harms way. Even if my reasoning is wrong, I feel that any American wouldn’t show the anger at me for my simple concern for the safety of our troops. I am only left to ponder why you have that angry tone towards me!
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If you had merely asked that, then I would never have jumped in. But don't give that "I'm an angel" crap! You're not concerned about our troops more than you're interested in saying "fuck you" to the S Koreans who don't support our presence. And my "angry tone" is mainly for your mistreatment of TimJ. Just so you know.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 4:40:30 PM EDT
Hey I not weird! I am just tired. Staying up till 5am delivering babies will do that to you. But thanks for the support, I am going to bed now.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:09:55 PM EDT
in response to Balzac72........ “Don't turn this into something about jews, because ARDoc's comments although wierd, don't show he's an anti semite. Only shows a bad choice in words IMHO.” I dont want to turn this about jews that was my whole point for i felt that it was he who was making this to be about the jews. “Big f'n deal! There were MILLIONS OF AMERICANS protesting the war in Iraq, yet there was a 65% approval rating for the war!” Yeah but that 65 percent we have to live with for it is our own citizens but we don’t have to live with other people’s negative attitudes to us when we defend them. “Yes, and here's question #1 - Who said that there's a majority that wants us out? And of that "majority" how many of them remember what happened during the Korean war? How outspoken are the supporters of America? In case you didn't notice, when people support something, they don't tend to be extremely vocal about it. But when somene (or group) is protesting, they tend to be VERY outspoken. (Think liberal fuckstick hippies marching in every city over Iraq.)” Listen I dont care to go over the numbers and see if its a majority or not, what is obvious is that there is a large portion (numbers that suggest that it is more then just extremists) of the population that doesnt want us there. “Look at the next quote below, I still don't think you're grasping this "international policy" thing. Here's a thought...maybe we're not just protecting S. Korea...but...THE WORLD FROM N Korea AND China!?! There's a novel idea.” Believe me those 37 thousand soldiers are useless as a defence against an attack from North Korea. If the north invades they will be over run. The u.s. will defend itself from its nuclear deterrent that is based from its ships at sea or other land locations. Yes we need to defend the world from these countries, but having 37 000 soldiers as suicidal bait is not the proper defence for that threat. “The "arrogance" you're picking up was exactly what I got from you, when Timj was explaining his experiences. Guess what? His EXPERIENCES speak louder than the news stories you're reading. ITS FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE and you're dismissing him and what he has to say. Have more respect for people who have "been there and done that." “ If you read what I wrote in my post in response to what he had to say "Listen, your stories are great but it still doesn’t address the fact that tens of thousands (around a half of million to be exact) were on the streets of Soul demanding that the u.s. leave, plus they elected a president who ran an election where the main theme was anti Americanism and calling for the u.s. to leave. I’m sure there are plenty of good people and I don’t for a second discredit any of your stories or for that matter other good stories that I am sure a lot of you veterans have. With that said I still find it very hard to ignore the recent negative events and reality!" clearly I ma not disrespecting his experinces. I am just reacting to specifically what I see(and not what I read in newspapers) on tv where there are these tens of thousands op people who are in clear view telling the world what they feel. “Yeah, but we're in S Korea, why should we pull out? Because the civies don't want us there? HA! If you had merely asked that, then I would never have jumped in. But don't give that "I'm an angel" crap! You're not concerned about our troops more than you're interested in saying "fuck you" to the S Koreans who don't support our presence. And my "angry tone" is mainly for your mistreatment of TimJ. Just so you know. “ Well that is a total misinterpretation of my thoughts. It is precisely out of my concern that I question what we are doing there. For yes if the south totally supported us I wouldn’t ask but I would still be concerned. I perhaps wouldn’t ask the question for I know that we are protecting the South Korean people but now that these very people are saying that we should leave I have every right to now ask why we are still risking our soldiers lives. I am still left to ponder why you have that angry tone if all you were angry about was my response to TimJ for if you had read it i was most respectful to his experiences.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:49:48 PM EDT
It wasn't just your responses to Tim, but a general attitude I picked up. But you're right, you did calm down, so I will too. The last thing I'll say is that with our troops there, you may call it a suicidal deterence, but I call it suicide for Korea to attack those 37,000 troops. That's why they're there. Because those troops are what keeps the North in check. Not by their military strength, but because, like you said, the strength of our presence lies in the water off of Korea. They know what the US response will be if they attempt an invasion of the South. If we weren't there, they probably would do something stupid, which would end up getting US troops killed anyway. So why not stop an altercation before it begins by a mere presence? And just because the people don't like us there now, that doesn't mean that we're not needed. That's the position the US is in. We are the de facto police force of the world. Might not be to everyone's liking, but it IS to everyone's benefit. By the way, it is incredulous for you to say,
"It is precisely out of my concern that I question what we are doing there. For yes if the south totally supported us I wouldn’t ask but I would still be concerned. I perhaps wouldn’t ask the question for I know that we are protecting the South Korean people but now that these very people are saying that we should leave I have every right to now ask why we are still risking our soldiers lives.
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Because that is precisely why we are there. If there were no North Korean threat, we would not be there. Same way we are not in Mongolia! And just because some communist sympathists drum up some polls and tell us to leave, do you think that it would be smart to allow ourselves to be chased away so easily by a bunch of commie protestors? You can't just tuck your tail between your legs and run just because of some protestors when there is a legitimate reason for our presence. If we were causing harm to S Korea, then maybe you'd have a point. But as the facts stand, there is a serious threat by the north, which is kept in check by our troops. And as a final point...if the US doesn't heed the minority view about Iraq that we shouldn't get involved, why should we heed a FOREIGN minority view that is likely tainted by the enemy's propaganda?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:59:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:09:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: It wasn't just your responses to Tim, but a general attitude I picked up. But you're right, you did calm down, so I will too. The last thing I'll say is that with our troops there, you may call it a suicidal deterence, but I call it suicide for Korea to attack those 37,000 troops. That's why they're there. Because those troops are what keeps the North in check. Not by their military strength, but because, like you said, the strength of our presence lies in the water off of Korea. They know what the US response will be if they attempt an invasion of the South. If we weren't there, they probably would do something stupid, which would end up getting US troops killed anyway. So why not stop an altercation before it begins by a mere presence? And just because the people don't like us there now, that doesn't mean that we're not needed. That's the position the US is in. We are the de facto police force of the world. Might not be to everyone's liking, but it IS to everyone's benefit. By the way, it is incredulous for you to say,
"It is precisely out of my concern that I question what we are doing there. For yes if the south totally supported us I wouldn’t ask but I would still be concerned. I perhaps wouldn’t ask the question for I know that we are protecting the South Korean people but now that these very people are saying that we should leave I have every right to now ask why we are still risking our soldiers lives.
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Because that is precisely why we are there. If there were no North Korean threat, we would not be there. Same way we are not in Mongolia! And just because some communist sympathists drum up some polls and tell us to leave, do you think that it would be smart to allow ourselves to be chased away so easily by a bunch of commie protestors? You can't just tuck your tail between your legs and run just because of some protestors when there is a legitimate reason for our presence. If we were causing harm to S Korea, then maybe you'd have a point. But as the facts stand, there is a serious threat by the north, which is kept in check by our troops. And as a final point...if the US doesn't heed the minority view about Iraq that we shouldn't get involved, why should we heed a FOREIGN minority view that is likely tainted by the enemy's propaganda?
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I was calm the whole time I only got worked up over the personal remarks I was getting. I must admit that you are full of arrogance for instead of recognising that I had been calm and had indeed responded with respect (to TimJ) you totally misrepresent me and now ignore that misrepresentation by hiding under your calm down speech. By you saying that I calmed down reminds me of my ex girlfriend who when I was calm would say calm down, this just had the opposite effect. Listen I am the first to say screw what they think, the u.s. needs to do the right thing. This is not the problem here. I guess I am asking if its the right thing to stay there for it was mostly about protecting the south Koreans from the north (and not as you try to put it as a protection for the u.s. mainland, for those troops provide no such protection, it is our other bases and our nuclear deterrence that provide that protection) and now some of them want us to leave so we now have to ask if we need to stay. For again we have been there mostly on the predication that we are protecting the South Korean people and now those people don’t want us there. Why is it so hard to understand the rightness of that question?!?!
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:31:28 PM EDT
ZARDOZ I'd be interested to hear about your road trip in Germany if you'd like to share.
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We took a trip to see Dachau. That place is awful; simply awful. And to think that there were literally HUNDREDS of other camps just like it? So the Germans didn't like having foreign armies on their soil; well, in my opinion, that was just too fuckin' bad.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:56:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IDFM_203: Look I agree with you on principle all I am asking here is how can we continue to give support when over 50 percent of the population that you are protecting wants you out
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I will tell you how. Your dog dont hunt, thats how. [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21319-2003Jun5.html]When Rumsfeld[/url] said we would move them out, Roh, [b]who ran on a USA OUT platform[/b] backed his ass up and said, [i]please baby, baby please[/i] dont leave us. Rumsfeld: Whos your Daddy? Roh: Uncle Sugar! 50% agreed on Roh as President, 50% is not anti USA. Hell, 50% of the Koreans want to be Americans! [blue]One question, you want us out of Korea, how many days of your life have you spent in Korea?[/blue] [red]I spent 364, all in the western corridor.[/red]
where there even some who are burning your flag
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So you dont want them to have the same rights as Americans? And you dont want us to defend them either? Are you Kim Jung Il??? [size=6]Chotmogulrah![/size=6]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:09:24 PM EDT
I want to thank all the former member and current members that serve in different countries to protect our interests. I am so grateful to be American. There is a reason so many try to become Americans. CavVet is correct. Many Koreans would kill to become Americans. My dad said only Americans are the truly generous people in this world. He grew up during the Korean war and ran into many American GIs. My grandmother and he had nothing. GIs would give them their C rations. He still liked SPAM! YUCK. He had a soft spot for any American in uniform. We had stores, several dry cleaners and everytime a policeman or firefighter came in, they would get an instant discount.
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