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Posted: 6/17/2003 4:04:48 PM EDT
who's right? I honestly don't know what they are fighting about.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 4:15:11 PM EDT
in a word... water
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 4:16:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fearlessrogue: in a word... water
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I mean who's taking land from whom? Who was there first?
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 4:42:19 PM EDT
Palestinians are Islamic. The tenet of Islam is to kill every last Jew and Christian. The palestinians are gung-ho about killing Jews because the Palistinians own nothing and have nothing to lose. Every other Islamic nation has "some sort of something" to lose, so they don't go after the Jews as much as their Imams think they should. Just remember, the Islamic folks who who do not want to kill you are not real Muslims, they are slackers.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 4:46:36 PM EDT
it goes all the way back to abraham's two sons
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 5:47:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: Who was there first?
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The British
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 5:55:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: who's right? I honestly don't know what they are fighting about.
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Neither do they. I don't really care. I only care to know why America INSISTS in inserting our nose in their business. As Rush said, there will be NO peace without complete victory. The road to peace over there will be littered with tens of thousands of dead bodies, in full scale all out war. This pseudo peace Bush and every other President in recent memory (at least since Carter) are trying to gin up is fools gold. lET 'EM FIGHT IT OUT, without any aMERICAN AID OF INTERFERENCE. Winner takes all. And be done with it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:18:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 6:23:39 PM EDT by shamayim]
Originally Posted By notack:
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: Who was there first?
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The British
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2000 years ago? I rather doubt it. It ain't about water either; though that does enter into it somewhat as you go thru the mess. What you'll hear or read about the whole mess depends largely on who is doing the talking or writing. I, for one, will be happy to tell you that it's all about the fact that roughly 100 years ago the Jews began to return to their ancestral homeland, from which they had been expelled by the Romans some 1800 years earlier. At the time,the territory was a sparcely settled back water of the Turkish Empire. After the Brits drove the Turks out in the First World War, (think Lawrence of Arabia) they were given administrative control of the area by the League of Nations. During the period 1918 to 1948 the UK did have legal power in the country. The first thing they did was split the territory in half, at the Jordan River, rename the half to the East of the river (Trans) Jordan, and gave it to one of the Arabian chiefs who'd helped Lawrence against the Turks. They also installed his two brothers as the heads of Syria and Iraq. During the next twenty years, til the outbreak of WW2 in 1939, more and more Jews came to the country and sttled. They bought land from the Turkish and Arab (often absentee) land owners and set about returning the land from the arid semi wasteland it had become to the "Land of Milk and Honey" of the Bible. They weren't totally successful. There's stil a good bit of desert in the south, but they did begin to establish a 20th Century society there. During the same period, tens of thousands of Arabs, realizing that living under a British administration was preferable to the feudal chieftans of their home areas, also immigrated to the area. By 1948, the Brits had been so pressured by the Jews to get the hell out, they turned the whole matter over to the UN, hoping that the UN would reauthorize their presence in the Holy Land. Instead, the UN voted to split what was left up into two states; on Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the idea, the Arabs, including all the surrounding Arab states, didn't, and from that refusal, and the subsequent war that Israel had to fight to fight in 1948, for independence, comes the mess we currently have. Please be aware that the my screen name is the Hebrew word for "Blue Sky", and I am married to an Israeli. There are Israel and or Jew haters on the board who will happily give you a totally different view of the events of the last 100 years over there. I guess you'll have to decide which point of view makes more sense to you[:D]
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:29:38 PM EDT
Water... If not for the need to get at the water under the west bank then there would already be a palestinian state.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:41:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fearlessrogue: Water... If not for the need to get at the water under the west bank then there would already be a palestinian state.
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Please se Shamayim's post above. The water issue is very recent, and is only really an issue due to a recent drought. Like the "occupied territory" issue, it is a misdirection. FWIW, Israel provides all virtually all uutilities to those "occupied" areas free of charge. The "Palestinian" territory originally alotted in 1947 was half the country that is now Israel. That was not enough then, and Israel faced a concerted effort to have itself exterminated. It is still not enough for fanatics who will only be happy when there is no Jewish state. Most of Isael would gladly give half the country to the "Palestinians" if it would guarantee peace. Sadly, all it would guarantee is an impossible security situation for Israel. FWIW, most of Jordan is made of ethnic "palestinians." Those nutcases aren't only a thorn in the back of the Israelis - Jordan would rather not share a border with a so-called "palestinian" state. This is not just a religious issue, despite what many may have you think.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:56:51 PM EDT
You can get all deep into and read a million books on the subject like I have. Or you can boil it all down to one simple fact. Arab-Muslims hate Jews with a nazi-esque passion.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:57:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 11:00:33 PM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By Adam_White: FWIW, most of Jordan is made of [red]ethnic "palestinians[/red]." Those nutcases aren't only a thorn in the back of the Israelis - Jordan would rather not share a border with a so-called "palestinian" state. This is not just a religious issue, despite what many may have you think.
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Just so's ya know??? There ain't no such animal..
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:01:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By Adam_White: FWIW, most of Jordan is [red]made of ethnic "palestinians[/red]." Those nutcases aren't only a thorn in the back of the Israelis - Jordan would rather not share a border with a so-called "palestinian" state. This is not just a religious issue, despite what many may have you think.
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Just so's ya know??? There ain't no such animal..
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Yes their is. There are Arabs of Palestinian descent. King Hussien of Jordan is a hashemite arab. Arabs are almost as racist towards different Arabs as they are towards Jews.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:12:27 PM EDT
Who was there first??? Depends on how far back you go... The Jews were there back to the beginnings of recorded history, before moving into egypt as a nomadic 'stateless' nation (documented fact in Egyptian recordings, weather you believe the Biblical account or not), and then left slavery in Egypt to return to their former homeland... In 70 AD, Rome destroyed their temple and scattered them throughout the Roman empire in response to a rebellion in Jerusalem... The romans then proceeded to re-name the region 'Palistine' in honor of the Jews ancient arch-rivals, the Philistines... Now, modern Palistinians (being Arab) do NOT trace their liniage back to the Philistines (who, like the other ancients, trace back to Lot). Rather, they trace back to Ishmael (Abraham's illigitimate son by his slave Hagar). The modern Palis are Arabs who moved into the area in the Muslim conquests hundreds of years after Rome renamed the area. They recieved the name because they lived in what the Romans called 'Palestine', not because they were the ORIGINAL occupants... Through modern times, after European powers gained control over the region, the Jews were further disbursed. However, after WWII, the UN decided to enforce an old League of Nations resolution that the British colony of Trans-Jordan be divided into several independant countries, including Israel (which was to be a homeland for the once again 'stateless' Jews) and Jordan (for the Arabs)... Now, the Arabs wanted it all, so they started what Israel calls the 'War of Independance' to conquer the newly-formed Israel in 1948. THEY LOST. Israel (like most victorious powers allways do) took some land as spoils of war, and for the strategic purpose of creating buffers... They offer citizenship to all interested Arabs. Some Arabs accept, others leave, and others turn to terrorisim in an attempt to get the 'all or nothing' situation that caused the first war. This basically continued through several more wars, the Arabs loosing each war (and with each lost war, loosing more land). Eventually, they give up on everything but terrorisim. And this is where we are today...
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:18:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Guns_N_Shizzle: You can get all deep into and read a million books on the subject like I have. Or you can boil it all down to one simple fact. Arab-Muslims hate Jews with a nazi-esque passion.
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Excuse my ignorance. But why? Just because of their different religions?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:29:49 AM EDT
Who cares who was there first? What bearing does that have on a Goddamn thing? By that logic, we should all get out and leave this place to the Indians. Here's an explanation of the recent troubles. Some really bad dude broke into your neighbor's house. They kicked the shit out of everybody, stole everything that was worth anything, and killed alot of them. The cops came, and because they felt guilty about not doing anything earlier, and because alot of the influencial cops are related to your neighbors, they knock on your door and tell you that your neighbors are going to be staying with you, indefinatly. Not only are they going to be staying with you, but they get the better bedroom, the kitchen, the living room, and most of the bathrooms. You get that one little shit bedroom in the back, the bathroom that doesn't work too good, and if you ask nicely they might let you use the kitchen when it's convenient or suits them.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:17:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Trog777:
Originally Posted By Guns_N_Shizzle: You can get all deep into and read a million books on the subject like I have. Or you can boil it all down to one simple fact. Arab-Muslims hate Jews with a nazi-esque passion.
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Excuse my ignorance. But why? Just because of their different religions?
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If you had a religion based on lies, lies "subsatntiated" on a TRUE religion, you would want to get rid of the original religion to bolster the truth of yours. Allah is not the God of Abraham.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:48:38 PM EDT
[url]http://www.levitt.com/essays/dh.html[/url]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:02:08 PM EDT
Unfortuately, there have been lots of deaths. I think people are being unrealistic that there will be a settlement in the near future. The combatants have been at this for years, hundreds of years. My girlfriend told me to buy some land because God stopped making it. This is the crux of the issue. Elbow space. We are lucky to live in a country blessed with space and natural resources. These people are fighting over a piece of dirt. I think there have been atrocities on both sides. Hardcores on both sides. Living in the Detroit area you get both views. There is a large Arabic population as well as a Jewish one. The side you get on depends on what you were born as. I do think that the media tends to be more pro-Israel then pro-Arab.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:12:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shamayim:
Originally Posted By notack:
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: Who was there first?
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The British
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By 1948, the Brits had been so pressured by the Jews to get the hell out, they turned the whole matter over to the UN, hoping that the UN would reauthorize their presence in the Holy Land. Instead, the UN voted to split what was left up into two states; on Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the idea, the Arabs, including all the surrounding Arab states, didn't, and from that refusal, and the subsequent war that Israel had to fight to fight in 1948, for independence, comes the mess we currently have.
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Why does it not suprise me that the UN has something to do with this whole situation?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:01:02 PM EDT
Chainsaw has a hell of a point.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:04:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 9:05:35 PM EDT by Only_Hits_Count]
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: I mean who's taking land from whom? Who was there first?
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Umm.. that would be the Sumerians-right?? "The racial make-up of the original inhabitants of the Near East - that is from Turkey to modern day Iran, including the areas known today as Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine and Egypt, was by the year 4000 BC, predominantly original White Mediterranean, with scattered groups of Alpine and Proto-Nordic sub groupings amongst them. These original White inhabitants were strengthened by the arrival of large numbers of Nordic Indo-Europeans who started spreading south from their ancestral homeland in southern Russia from around 3000 BC onwards. In addition to these White peoples, another grouping was to play a significant role in the history of the Near East - the Semitic speaking peoples (this encompasses a wide range of peoples, including groups known to history as the ancient Jews and Arabic peoples). These Semitic speaking peoples eventually came to predominate the entire Middle East, entering the original White territories as laborers, traders, immigrants and military conquerors. The region between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers is commonly called the fertile crescent - because of the closeness of fresh water supplies. However, the term fertile crescent is a misnomer. Rainfall in the region has always been sparse, and large parts of this region are in fact arid desert. The region was, contrary to popular myth, never ideal farming territory, and the dryness was only alleviated in part due to the proximity of the river water. In spite of this, by the year 5000 BC, original Mediterranean Whites and some early Nordic tribes (together known as Ubaidians) established settlements in the Tigris and Euphrates river basin. These settlements gradually developed into the chief cities of the region. This territory lies in the modern day country of Iraq."
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:13:45 PM EDT
Only_Hits_Count: What the hell is your source for that? The use of "Whites" as a capital "W" ethnic group makes it sound REALLY suspect. Last I checled, your so-called "semitic speaking peoples" were also "white."
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:23:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 10:20:18 PM EDT by ARgue]
Bradd_D, I would have to agree with Adam_White, in that Shamayim's run down of the history is pretty darn close, except for a few myths inserted here and there that we've all been fed our entire lives. The thing is, there's just so much propaganda we're not even aware of, it's difficult to wade through it all without getting frustrated or falling back on the false understanding that our text books, popular culture, sunday school, abcnnbcbsfoxnews, etc. propagates. It usually only takes an open mind and a few simple facts/questions to blow those myths out of the water, however. [Note: People who name-call, do so because their argument is weak. And as you can see, some have already done some pre-emptive(!) name-calling, against anyone who holds a different view from their own, and I quote, "There are Israel and or Jew haters on the board who will happily give you a totally different view..." [:D]] - Palestinians are not Palestinian based on religion or race. They are simply the decendents of any/all people who have ever lived on that land. [left]
The tenet of Islam is to kill every last Jew and Christian.
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[/left] [LOLabove] - Ask any Christian Palestinian or Palestinian Jew about how they were/are treated by their fellow Muslim Palestinians (for the past 14+ centuries) vs. how the Israelis are treating Christian Palestinians for the past 50+ years. Who is doing the killing and "pushing into the sea?" - The state of Israel is based on Zionism, an ideology founded by athiest socialists (read: Theodor Herzl). Zionism actually promotes anti-semitism to attain its goal. Not all Jews support Israel nor Zionism, in fact, most Zionists are probably Christian. You really have to do some research into exactly what Zionism is in order to understand Israel. The fairy-tale explanation of a "homeland for the Jews" [i]sounds[/i] great, but what are the implications of such an idea? Think it through. While it may sound nice, trust me, creating a "homeland for the Aryans" or a "homeland for the _____" is just askin' for trouble. It'd also be good to take a hard look at propaganda from BOTH camps to get closer to your own "truth." Holy Land Christians [url]www.hcef.org[/url] Jews United Against Zionism [url]www.nkusa.org[/url] Islamic Association for Palestine [url]www.iap.org[/url] I'll leave you with a final point to ponder: Why can't the Jews and Palestinian Christians and Muslims live together in peace, like they did BEFORE Israel was created in 1948?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:43:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: Only_Hits_Count: What the hell is your source for that? The use of "Whites" as a capital "W" ethnic group makes it sound REALLY suspect. Last I checled, your so-called "semitic speaking peoples" were also "white."
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It's just one view- I didn't say it was mine, nor did I say it was the 'right' one. "From a racial point of view it is worth noting that neither the original Old European Mediterranean White peoples nor the original Semitic peoples exist in their original form any more. While retaining certain physical characteristics, both these groups have been mixed substantially with each other and other racial groups as a result of the ebb and flow of historical events in the Middle East. It is also important to realize that although there existed a Semitic racial type, very often confusion exists when the term "Semitic" is used. Very often when mention is made of the word "Semite" it is presumed that it is to Jews whom reference are being made - this is a false assumption. The Jews of ancient times were most certainly as pure a Semitic speaking people as could be found, but in modern times are a mix of a great many races, from Black right through to all of the White subraces, so it would be factually incorrect to refer to the Jews of today as pure Semites. Semitic speaking tribes also encompassed a number of other tribes in the Middle East, as is the case still today." The question was merely -"who was there first" Capitalization has been skewed due to PC reasons. I also will capitalize Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Muslim, and Christian. May not be grammatically correct, but it's politically correct.
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