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Posted: 6/16/2003 1:13:34 PM EDT
Got this today from [url]www.conservativealerts.com[/url]. _______________________ ISSUE: Our friend Chuck Muth (ChuckMuth.com) has just alerted us of an INSANE situation up in Waltham, Massachusetts. This one's so ridiculous, it makes our blood boil just to think of it. Take a look at his message: Kim and George Bryant have been home-schooling their two kids, George (15) and Nyssa (13), much to the chagrin of the Waltham Public School (WPS) system. The Bryants thus far have refused to force their children to take a government-mandated standardized test to assess their education level. The WPS empire struck back last year, obtaining a court order giving custody of the kids to the Department of Social Services (DSS), which ever since has been threatening to take the kids away from their parents. As the MetroWest Daily News reported on Friday, "Both sides agree that the children are in no way abused mentally, physically, sexually or emotionally, but legal custody of the children was taken from Kim and George Bryant in December 2001." They were ruled to be "unfit" for not filing educational plans with the government. Unfit. For not filing paperwork. With the government school system. Over the education of their OWN children. In fact, George Bryant was actually ARRESTED six years ago for failing to comply with the government's dictates over the home-schooled education of HIS children. Arrested. Thrown in jail. Like a criminal. For taking personal responsibility for the education of HIS kids. This six-year legal battle exploded on Thursday as bureaucrats from the DSS showed up at the Bryants' home with police escorts at 7:45 a.m. and attempted to remove the children from their home and force them to take the mandated tests. Once again, the Bryants told the government agents to pound dirt, resulting in a seven-hour standoff. "This has been a six-year battle between the Waltham Public Schools and our family over who is in control of the education of our children," said Bryant. How DARE these parents stand up to the government and defend their right to raise their children as they see fit? Who do they think they are? At least, that's the attitude of one outrageous government bureaucrat involved in this brouhaha. "We have the legal custody of the children and we will do with them as we see fit," DSS trooper Susan Etscovitz told the Bryants Thursday morning. "They are minors and they do what we tell them to do." It is near impossible to describe the rage I feel inside every time I read those chilling words. WE will do with them as WE see fit. They do what WE tell them to do. The sheer audacity of a bureaucrat to make such a statement about someone else's children who are in no way abused in any shape, form or fashion is beyond comprehension to me. Comrade Etscovitz maintained on Thursday that, "No one wants these children to be put in foster homes. The best course of action would be for (the Bryants) to instruct the children to take the test." One can just imagine her words being delivered with a thick East German accent: "Oon now, all vee need ees dee kidz!" This isn't about education. It's about control. It's about an imperial government trying to crush a movement in its infancy which could one day spell the end of the public school monopoly over our kids' educations. Home-schooling means children might start learning again. REAL learning. Not "whole language" and "self-esteem." Learning about radical notions such as freedom, liberty and personal responsibility. Notions such as limited government and the Constitution and the vision of our Founding Fathers. Yeah, we can't have THAT! ACTION ITEM: As it appears that DSS is getting its marching orders from the Waltham Public Schools, it seems the best place to start is with the School Superintendent there. Her name is Dr. Susan Parrella. She can be reached via email at parrellas@k12.waltham.ma.us or by phone at (781) 314-5400 or fax at (781) 314-5411. Emails are great... but nothing quite ruins a bureaucrat's day like dealing with a flood of phone calls. I know. I just called. The woman who answered the phone hung up on me when she found out what I was calling about. They do NOT want to answer any questions about this. Oh, and by the way. I reached Ms. Etscovitz this morning. She was not a happy camper once she found out what I was calling about. Refused to comment on her "we will do with them as we see fit" statement, saying only, "I'm terminating this conversation now," before slamming the phone down. I think it would really bug her if a lot of people called (781) 641-8500, so please, please don't rattle her cage, OK? That number not to call again to reach Susan Etscovitz is (781) 641-8500. That's (781) 641-8500. (You could also fax her at 781-648-6909.) -- Chuck Muth We normally set up a website with a pre-written letter to Congress, etc. However, we thought it would be much more effective for our members to make contact as described above, in their own words. If you get a response you'd like to share, be sure to drop us a note. As this issue develops and is "bumped up the ladder" of responsibility, we'll let you know who to contact next. NOTE: The situation in Waltham has gotten WAY out of hand. Outraged Americans across the country need to contact these bureaucrats NOW to express their outrage and demand they do the RIGHT thing. Be sure to forward this email to everyone you know who wants to help save parental choice in America, starting in Massachusetts. Thank you! ------------------------------------------------------------
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:20:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:21:24 PM EDT
I've always found it interesting how the Left pokes fun at the Right for being parnoid with respect to the power of government. But, they are only too quick to show that that paranoia is actually justified concern.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:21:36 PM EDT
If this is really true then I bet the situation could escalate to where Ted Kennedy takes the parents for a ride and tries to drive off a bridge! Only in Massachussets...
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:25:24 PM EDT
God forbid, someone wants to do for themselves and save me tax dollars. I wish that the Govt would keep out of our business. However, the social and politiacl elite would not be able to fortify their position of dominance if they could not control us, so I cant say as I blame them. What do you expect.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:43:03 PM EDT
We are homeschooling our childen. This little item REALLY pisses me off. I hope that this family had the foresight to join the homeschool legal defense group. Most authorities recommend joining up, if only for the remote possibility of situations such as this one...despite the relative infrequency of such occurrences.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:51:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 2:04:52 PM EDT by 7IDL]
I would home school my child if I could. It hurts me to have to send her to public school. I do try to augment/better what she's getting there. Is it any wonder that both parents have to work now ?????? But this shit really pisses me off. I think that things would get messy if they tried to take my kid away. This is another Ruby Ridge / Waco BS jbt incident in the making. Does anyone in govn' ever learn? (I know, I know) [pissed]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:02:19 PM EDT
I just email bombed her for something to do. What a bunch of crap this is. I would definetly pull a Ruby Ridge if this was my family.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:06:40 PM EDT
I'm just curious to see if the same people complaining about this situation would be so irate over so-called welfare children being homeschooled on selling drugs. Certainly this news article makes it seem like the DSS has overstepped its boundaries, but there certainly are situations where the parent's right to homeschool is superceded by a child's right to a good education. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:10:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 2:11:31 PM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By gus: One can just imagine her words being delivered with a thick East German accent: "Oon now, all vee need ees dee kidz!"
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East German accent? Vot de fock is dat pers[b]o[/b]n torking about? I haff no akzent vattzo-evah! :-)
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:18:48 PM EDT
This is all very troubling....except for one small thing--the Bryants are in violation of the law. Here's a summary of MA's laws on testing, from the Home School Legal Defense Association website (of which I am a member): Standardized Tests: Parents have two choices (according to the Charles case--see 1(d) above): 1) A parent could submit standardized test results (school officials may insist that a neutral third party administer the test); or, 2) Parents could submit an alternative form of assessment. This typically consists of progress reports, dated work samples, portfolio review, assessment by a certified teacher of the parent's choice. ([url]www.hslda.org[/url]) So, although I applaud the Bryants for standing up to the government (and I am no fan of standardized tests, even after homeschooling our two boys for four years), I still think he's suffering the justifyable consequences of his actions. I will call and [s]harrass[/s] express my support, but the bottom line is the Bryants are breaking the law. I don't see him winning this one in court.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:18:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 2:22:37 PM EDT by Greenhorn]
They're on the dying side and they know it - around 2 million home-schooled kids in the US alone, and the number is growing all the time. They're getting desperate. They're losing control. Did you know that not long ago it was illegal for kids to be home-schooled in some states? Now, thank goodness, it's legal in all 50 states. I am so glad that I and my six siblings were/are home-schooled. I didn't have to grow up being taught PC crap, propaganda, bad morals, and twisted history. Not to mention the peer pressure I thankfully never encountered. Plus, if it is as common as the media makes it out to be for nerds to be beat up, I certainly would have been beat up all the time, like my dad was when he went to public school. I would probably have been termed a nerd because I read science and history, and fiction/non-fiction novels in my spare time, I loved writing stories, and I loved learning new things. I was very small for my age, and I talked with a slight lisp. I also was (and still am to a somewhat lesser extent) extremely shy and never talked to anyone. I would have been a target every moment.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:20:10 PM EDT
I must be missing something. What is so wrong with having the kids take tests to see if they are actually learning at the appropriate level? The government isn't dictating how the kids be taught, it's just verifying that they are at least keeping up with the rest of the country. Home schooling doesn't mean you don't have to follow the governments guidelines, it just means you get to teach the material the way you see fit. The law of the land requires that children get an education. If you don't like that law, then get out of the country. How is that for a twist on a phrase often repeated here?
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:25:22 PM EDT
When you register a live birth, and get an SSN for a child, you have just handed "Jurisdiction" over to the state. This gives them Authority to do as they wish..
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:38:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 2:48:24 PM EDT by Chapman]
Originally Posted By 7IDL: I would home school my child if I could. It hurts me to have to send her to public school. I do try to augment/better what she's getting there. Is it any wonder that both parents have to work now ?????? But this shit really pisses me off. I think that things would get messy if they tried to take my kid away. This is another Ruby Ridge / Waco BS jbt incident in the making. Does anyone in govn' ever learn? (I know, I know) [pissed]
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Don't underestimate the public school system. It is an opportunity for your daughter to learn about diversity first-hand outside of the home. While her education as far as books go, it may not be the best. But as far as real-world interaction and social elevation, public schools are #1. You're not doing the wrong thing. Edited to add: Just read Greenhorn's post. Not a bad reason to home school, but if you think it will be any different once you're out of school, think again. I never got beat up once after the 3rd grade. I only got in one serious fight in high school, and thankfully I won. I don't believe there are that many schools where a, "nerd," would be physically beaten just because they are a, "nerd." Laughed at, yes. Beat up, no. Now if the, "nerd," says something offensive to someone, they are a VERY easy target. Most people (pussies) would be tempted to challenge the skinny nerd than the varsity football center in high school. Some of my friends from class were what most people considered, "nerds," because they received 4.0 + GPA's. Just remember, if you're a, "nerd," in high school, try to make friends with some sports players (especially football).
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:42:49 PM EDT
I can see some JBTs raiding the home and taking out the kiddies...... CRC
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:46:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: When you register a live birth, and get an SSN for a child, you have just handed "Jurisdiction" over to the state. This gives them Authority to do as they wish..
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Grrr. We have custody and we will do as we please. Are they going to lock the kids in a room and not feed them until they take the test?
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:56:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 3:01:26 PM EDT by nightstalker]
I'm not sure, but why didn't they allow their kids to be tested to show the superior education they were receiving? I don't believe we should have ever given over the halls of education to the state but most state constitutions have this as a mandate so it is the law. Change the law. You could make the same complaints about driver's licenses, professional licenses, and CCW.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:06:26 PM EDT
As provided for by AL law, I have declared my home a church school, and we educate our daughter under this umbrella. As such, due to the sep. of church/state, there is absolutely NO contact with the state, ever again. The state may not dictate curriculum, or mandate testing at a church school, and this is how it is. To reply to those espousing the virtues of state/fed mandated testing/standards, etc., it is simply NOT the responsibility of these entities to educate our children, it just isn't. I simply cannot cognate handing my kids over to local gov. schools all day, where they are at their whims, and I cannot even come get them if I wish. The control that these systems perceive to have, and indeed do have, over your kids, if you let them have it, is chilling. CHILLING.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:12:20 PM EDT
Another story on it: [url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33077[/url] Government agent, cops confront homeschoolers Come to family's house demanding children submit to mandated testing Posted: June 14, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com Homeschooled teen-agers in Waltham, Mass., have consistently refused to take a mandatory assessment test demanded by the local school district, and their parents have backed up the kids' decision – a six-year stance that culminated in an early-morning standoff with government and law-enforcement officials outside their home. According to a report in the MetroWest Daily News, social workers from the Department of Social Services and police officers confronted the family at 7:45 a.m. Thursday, demanding that George, 15, and Nyssa, 13, complete a standardized test. As they have done in the past, the children refused to go, even though the government now has legal custody of them. "There have been threats all along. Most families fall to that bullying by the state and the legal system," dad George Bryant Sr. told the paper. "But this has been a six-year battle between the Waltham Public Schools and our family over who is in control of the education of our children. In the end, the law of this state will protect us." DSS worker Susan Etscovitz tried to use the fact that the Bryants technically don't have custody of their own children in her plea. "We have legal custody of the children and we will do with them as we see fit," Etscovitz told the Bryants, according to the Daily News. "They are minors and they do what we tell them to do." Four police officers were also at the scene and attempted to coax the Bryants into complying with the DSS worker. One of the law-enforcement officers told the paper: "We will not physically remove the children." According to the report, the Bryants contend that no government entity has the legal right to force their children to take standardized tests, even though DSS workers have threatened to take their children from them. The Waltham Public School's homeschooling policy requires parents to file educational plans and develop a grading system for their home-educated children. The Bryants have refused to do so. "We do not believe in assessing our children based on a number or letter. Their education process is their personal intellectual property," Bryant told the Daily News. "We don't want to take the test. We have taken them before and I don't think they are a fair assessment of what we know," said Nyssa Bryant. "And no one from DSS has ever asked us what we think." DSS made it clear it leaves open the option of removing the children from their home. "No one wants these children to be put in foster homes. The best course of action would be for (the Bryants) to instruct the children to take the test," Etscovitz told the paper.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:47:35 PM EDT
Wow, I can't believe this is happening in America!
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:03:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Wow, I can't believe this is happening in America!
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I can..................
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:11:35 PM EDT
the tree of liberty is thirsty
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:22:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Camp_Ninja: As provided for by AL law, I have declared my home a church school, and we educate our daughter under this umbrella. As such, due to the sep. of church/state, there is absolutely NO contact with the state, ever again. The state may not dictate curriculum, or mandate testing at a church school, and this is how it is. To reply to those espousing the virtues of state/fed mandated testing/standards, etc., it is simply NOT the responsibility of these entities to educate our children, it just isn't. I simply cannot cognate handing my kids over to local gov. schools all day, where they are at their whims, and I cannot even come get them if I wish. The control that these systems perceive to have, and indeed do have, over your kids, if you let them have it, is chilling. CHILLING.
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In light of this example of a typical law on the books forbidding public funds for private schools (it reads like churches have the plague!!!) in Illinois, you are lucky to live in Alabama where they haven't lost their minds. SECTION 3. PUBLIC FUNDS FOR SECTARIAN PURPOSES FORBIDDEN Neither the General Assembly nor any county, city, town, township, school district, or other public corporation, shall ever make any appropriation or pay from any public fund whatever, anything in aid of any church or sectarian purpose, or to help support or sustain any school, academy, seminary, college, university, or other literary or scientific institution, controlled by any church or sectarian denomination whatever; nor shall any grant or donation of land, money, or other personal property ever be made by the State, or any such public corporation, to any church, or for any sectarian purpose. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) My point being that if the State wants to distance themselves from the churches then it's only fair that the churches have that same right......i.e. sovereignty of choice in schooling.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:24:22 PM EDT
This is the first I've heard of this, but it appears from the article and email that were posted, the parents started this fiasco. Due to the level of stupid children 'graduating' from High School the State implemented a state wide exam. It is given a number of times to students throughout their 'edumacation'..I think 4 times. The exams are used to rate a school to make sure they are teaching at least at a minimum level. This is a good thing. For years, schools were 'graduating' kids who couldn't read/write and the schools just went on their merry way. Now their are proficiency test for teachers (which most failed the 1st time they were given..they had to pass the test to continue to teach...this was not liked very much by the teacher's unions). There are the tests given at different grade levels to make sure that kids are being taught. Schools that have low scores can be taken over by the state if scores aren't improved. Finally, there is the testing for graduating seniors, and if they don't pass, they don't graduate. I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect home-schoolers be required to meet the graduation requirements. Home schooled children are usually better educated and won't have a problem with the test. As for the school district and DSS involvement, that's all BS. DSS is no different than any child service organization, in any state. Get them involved and they'll fu*k it up. The school district is in it for the money. The state gives money to schools based on the number of students. If a kid goes to a school in another district or town, the state money is taken from one school and given to the school the kid actually attends. So, they don't get money for kids that are home schooled.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:31:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 4:33:32 PM EDT by nightstalker]
California decides it's not really "down" with testin'. IOW it's OK to make "home-schoolers" take tests but not public school kids. Hypocrisy thy name is NEA. [url]http://www.timesstar.com/Stories/0,1413,125~1511~1457449,00.html[/url]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:41:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SWIRE: I must be missing something. What is so wrong with having the kids take tests to see if they are actually learning at the appropriate level? The government isn't dictating how the kids be taught, it's just verifying that they are at least keeping up with the rest of the country.
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Au contraire, my friend. There is an old saying that goes, "He who makes the rules wins." Whoever sets the standards for "learning" actually is dictating what needs to be taught. In this case, since the WPS/State Ed. dept. has set the grading/testing criteria, a student must be taught accordingly. If a parent decides that the standardized tests only force you to teach what the "powers that be" want the student to learn (Political correctness, twisted social morality, questionable science, etc.), it stands to reason many parents would refuse to have their kids tested on such things.
Home schooling doesn't mean you don't have to follow the governments guidelines, it just means you get to teach the material the way you see fit.
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Again, it means since you are being tested on what the State thinks you need to learn, as a parent, if you object to the subject matter, you are left with no recourse, other than outright refusal to administer the tests.
The law of the land requires that children get an education. If you don't like that law, then get out of the country. How is that for a twist on a phrase often repeated here?
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A fairly lame one, at best.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 5:10:25 PM EDT
"No one wants these children to be put in foster homes. The best course of action would be for (the Bryants) to instruct the children to take the test," Etscovitz told the paper.
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In other words, "Do with "your" children as ve instruct you, and the torture will stop. Fail to comply, and watch us steal your very soul. CHILLING, my friends. Shame on them!
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 5:26:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chapman:
Originally Posted By 7IDL: I would home school my child if I could. It hurts me to have to send her to public school. I do try to augment/better what she's getting there. Is it any wonder that both parents have to work now ?????? But this shit really pisses me off. I think that things would get messy if they tried to take my kid away. This is another Ruby Ridge / Waco BS jbt incident in the making. Does anyone in govn' ever learn? (I know, I know) [pissed]
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Don't underestimate the public school system. It is an opportunity for your daughter to learn about diversity first-hand outside of the home. While her education as far as books go, it may not be the best. But as far as real-world interaction and social elevation, public schools are #1. You're not doing the wrong thing. Edited to add: Just read Greenhorn's post. Not a bad reason to home school, but if you think it will be any different once you're out of school, think again. I never got beat up once after the 3rd grade. I only got in one serious fight in high school, and thankfully I won. I don't believe there are that many schools where a, "nerd," would be physically beaten just because they are a, "nerd." Laughed at, yes. Beat up, no. Now if the, "nerd," says something offensive to someone, they are a VERY easy target. Most people (pussies) would be tempted to challenge the skinny nerd than the varsity football center in high school. Some of my friends from class were what most people considered, "nerds," because they received 4.0 + GPA's. Just remember, if you're a, "nerd," in high school, try to make friends with some sports players (especially football).
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Chapman, you couldn't be more wrong about the socialization aspects of homeschooling and public schools. If you want your kids to learn how to "fit in" to a Lord of the Flies society, where kids rule the roost and the adult supervision isn't, then send them to public school (this, of course is a generalization--YMMV). My kids, on the other hand, have learned how to really socialize--they can interact with a child their age, someone younger, and someone much, much older, because they do it all day, EVERY DAY, not just nights and weekends like public school kids. Most homeschooled children are active in much more than just school and a couple of classes. My two, for example, have been involved in Scouts, meals on wheels (where they learn to be respectful and interact with seniors), AWANA (kind of a Christian Scouts where they learn the Bible), Sunday School, swim lessons, and the all-important range time! More importantly, they interact with a wide variety of other homeschoolers at different ages; so, for example, my 9 & 12 yr olds go to a house with kids ages 14, 11, 9, and 4. They learn to deal with kids younger and older than themselves in a dynamic environment, as opposed to highly regulated environment of public schools. They also, due to the nature of homeschooling, have much broader experiences than public school kids. My boys visit places public schools can't even think of going. As a result, they can have conversations with many more people, since they have been exposed to so much more. One last thing--yes, it's true, that the pecking order in schools means that a "nerd" just needs to mind his manners around the jocks and he'll be left alone. In my world, however, my two boys are free to be who they are without fear of violence or ostracism based on some stupid social code developed by kids and for kids (the cruelest form of animal life on the planet), a code that prizes ANYTHING (looks, money, cool cars, etc.) over knowledge, critical thinking skills, and learning how to learn, which last time I checked was the whole point of an education. My boys will not have the "socialization" of being beat up by some jock, made fun of by other kids who are so afraid of not fitting in that they will gleefully wolfpack against anyone defined as "different," forced to endure hours of boring or incompetent teachers, the mind-numbing regimen of classes, and developing Pavlovian responses to class bells like some kind of automaton....and that's okay by me. Limaxray--successfully homeschooling two young gentlemen since 1999.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 6:07:48 PM EDT
True, it is extremely sad and unsettling what is unfolding in this situation for the children. Unfortunately, the parents are completely to blame for it. They knew the law of the land, and did not have to do much to prevent this action from being taken. It sounds to me that the school district was not telling the parents that they could not homeschool their children, and in fact, were not placing any control on what the children were taught, as long as they could prove that the children were learning enough to meet some very basic requirements. Anyone who knows anything about these standardized tests knows that a seventh grader taught by a mediocre teacher could pass any standardized test given to a 12th grader. As posters here have often mentioned and lamented, those tests are so bland, PC, and fearful of offending anyone, that there certainly could not be ANYTHING in there that would be objectionable to any parent, that is the way the tests have been designed out of fear of being sued. Any student who can simply read, write, and do simple math calculations can pass these tests. Certainly the tests are not perfect, but if all these parents had to do to keep the state out of their hair, as they were told on numerous occasions, was to sit their kids down for a test that ANYONE could have passed, what is the big friggin deal? The state was NOT dictating to them their very curriculum, just asking them to prove that their children could pass a basic test. If we say that the state has no right to ask these parents to prove their children are getting basic education, what about unfit parents who choose to not educate their kids at all? All the states require that children get a certain level of education, and most give the parents a multitude of choices as to how that education comes in, in exchange for their proving that the children are indeed getting educated. A parent who didn't want to be bothered could just say that they were homeschooling THEIR kids, and if their children were not required to take a test every few years, then they could conceivably never get educated. In the long run, uneducated children turn into serious risks to the general public as a whole when they become adults, so we cannot allow people to not educate their kids. Again, I am not saying that these particular parents are unfit, but if bad parents are forced to prove they are in fact educating their children, then that law must apply to everyone. It is the same as what was going on with that ridiculous lady in, I believe, Florida, who didn't want to have to take her headdress off for a driver's license picture. She had to, even though it went against her personal religious freedom and values, because IT WAS THE LAW, and everyone here agreed with that, rather vehemently. What they are ultimately teaching their children is that if they don't happen to like the way a law imposes on their life, they should just break it, instead of the very important lesson they SHOULD be learning, which is that if you don't like a a law, don't break it, but try to change it.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 6:30:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SWIRE: I must be missing something. What is so wrong with having the kids take tests to see if they are actually learning at the appropriate level?
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The problem isn't the tests themselves. It's the underlying principles. For the government to say, "We're just making sure Junior is learning well, so you must take these standardized test" carries with it the nasty implication that Junior is not "your" child. Junior has become a child of society. It takes a village, you know. Personally, I support the Bryants 100%. And I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for you people who take the time out of your lives to homeschool your own childer. Yes, YOUR OWN children, not the government's! -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:29:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray: Chapman, you couldn't be more wrong about the socialization aspects of homeschooling and public schools.... Limaxray--successfully homeschooling two young gentlemen since 1999.
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I only have internet acces in my office, so as usual I missed some of the debate. When I was reading through the rest of the thread this morning, I read Chapman's post and immediately formulated a response very similar to your own. Thanks for the response.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:39:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 6:43:35 AM EDT by Ghostchild]
Yeah those basic reading comprehension tests, vocabulary exams, and simple mathematics are WAAY over rated, no-one needs to know that. I don't know how I feel about the whole DSS "owning" the children, but the fact of the matter is that there are laws in place for standardizing education, the parents knew this (and well from what the article says) and still chose not to give the children the tests. Well when I was in high-school (because my parents weren't around to home-school) we had to take the tests, and you know what happened if you fail? you don't pass, and have to take remedial classes until your scores improve. its kind of like college, and the weird thing is actually prepared me for the big jump to the "real world" which is if you say that you can do something, sometimes you have to prove it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 6:47:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:01:12 AM EDT
The tree is indeed thirsty. Why a standardized test? for the same reason you dont 'need' a flash suppressor and high capacity magazines - because the GOVERNMENT says so. You apologists for the state just plain don't get it. This will indeed bring bloodshed one day. Better make up your mind now as which side you are on. Ops
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:04:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray: Limaxray--successfully homeschooling two young gentlemen since 1999.
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Funny, I read the post, and moved on, then came back to this. limaxray, I believe I have a message for you. Our Lord has a Blessing, for you, and your "two young gentlemen"... God Bless, and THANKS!!! (Don't ask, I'm just the messenger. I'd love to know what happens(ed), when it does!![:D])
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:23:56 AM EDT
I posted on the other thread that it would be nice to see the house surrounded and defended by freedom-minded individuals. The Bryant's are just the unluck winners of the house-to-house lottery. Somewhere, a gun owners rights are trampled, in MA, the Bryant's homeschooling is challenged/trampled, and who knows how many other similar scenarios are playing out...? You who say "Why not take the test" or "They know the law"... You will be first in line on amnesty day won't you. After all, you will know the law says you can't have guns. What's wrong with that? Scott
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 8:25:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scottman: You who say "Why not take the test" or "They know the law"... You will be first in line on amnesty day won't you. After all, you will know the law says you can't have guns. What's wrong with that? Scott
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This really isn't a good comparison, It would be more like if you had a legally owned machine gun. And one day you took it to the range that isn't supervised, and noone else was around and ripped off 2000 rounds. A cop sees/hears this and comes over to ask you about it, you know check and make sure all is on the up and up. He asks you for the paperwork, or if you have it and you say yes. can he see it? no. the point being that right now it is illegal to own a a rifle that fires automatically without paperwork, that doesn't mean we just disregard it and buy them anyways.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 8:30:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 8:36:11 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
I'd sign on to this, but not until I have some evidence that these kids can read, write, etc.. I in no way approve of the Government's actions here, but I'd like to know whether these kids have received a decent education. There are other ways besides a mandated test. If you decide to "home school" your kids, and then fail to adequately educate them, I think that's abuse. In fact, I think this type of abuse has no equal. If you chose to home school your kids, and then 18 years later they don't know enough to function in society, that should be a crime. (of course if you chose to send your kids to PUBLIC school, and then 18 years later they don't know enough to function in society, that should be a crime TOO).
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 8:54:06 AM EDT
I think the .Gov position on this matter is outrageous. They have as much right to tell me when, how, what and where to educate my children as they do telling me I can't have an AR15. I support these folks 100%. That being said, I think it is hilarious that if the state determines that you are not educating your children, they will happily bring in armed men to take the children and NOT educate them themselves. I guess it is OK for the State to not educate your children, but it is not OK for you to not educate your children. What a friggin load!
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:01:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: I'd sign on to this, but not until I have some evidence that these kids can read, write, etc..
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Sure. After all, "It takes a village" eh?
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:21:15 AM EDT
With freedom comes responsibility. Should an Islamic Father be allowed to "Home School" his daughters according to his religious beliefs? Even if according to his faith, that means NO SCHOOLING? Not in America. Children have rights as individuals, just like their parents. When this man's daughters turn 18, it's to late for them to "decide" to seek education. It's never as simple as simple people think.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:30:28 AM EDT
I called the numbers to badger them and kept getting transferred. That Susan Etscovitz is not taking calls and seems to be in hiding. That was pretty fun I must say.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:31:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TimJ:
Originally Posted By nightstalker: I'm not sure, but why didn't they allow their kids to be tested to show the superior education they were receiving? I don't believe we should have ever given over the halls of education to the state but most state constitutions have this as a mandate so it is the law. Change the law. You could make the same complaints about driver's licenses, professional licenses, and CCW.
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Because it's none of the governments Freaking business. None. At. All. The don't like home schooling because it threatens their power base. They don't like that. That's why they do shite like this-and to intimidate others into NOT doing it. That's all. "Disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God" Oh, and CCW, we have an absolute right to carry arms for our own defense. In spite of what the legislators of the various states have decided.
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OK, I agree, we shouldn't license medical personnel, contractors or drivers. If licensing is fundamentally wrong, it's specifically wrong.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:31:20 AM EDT
The nice thing about America is that as adults, our culture has an EXPECTATION that we will act responsibly. Because of that expectation, we are supposed to be "free." Supposing there were no government schooling mandates...lots of you people like to come up with these wacky issues like, "What if a muslim father doesn't want to teach his kids math?!?" (by the way, it was the Arabs who invented algebra) Let's face it, very few parents would take that route. Would SOME parents let their kids slack off and grow their first 18 years without learning how to read? IN a country of almost 300,000,000 people, of course, but I will happily sacrefice those few people to gain more freedom for everyone. And where do you get the idea that the government is the best judge of kids' education? Don't we all spend plenty of time pissing and moaning about how poor the standards in the GOVERNMENT schools are? I say leave the homeschooler's alone! No standardized checks, no surprise visitors from the "Child welfare department," nothing! Nothing but the freedom to educate and raise your children as you see fit without having to lick the boots of NEA bureaucrats and jump through their silly hoops. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:51:01 AM EDT
The government has gone to an extreme position in this one, but so have the Bryants. Children have a right to a decent education, and our society spends an incredible amount of money to provide one. Massachusetts has taken the position that since a tremendous amount of money is being spent to educate children, it is reasonable and responsible to ensure that the money is being well spent. MCAS was the result. It was RAMMED down the education systems throats over strenuous objections and massive lobbying by the teacher's unions. MCAS has been shown to work, at least in the preliminary. 90+ percent of all seniors are passing the test and graduating from high school with the basic skills they need to either advance to higher education or enter the work force. So the government requiring MCAS testing of all students is not something that was required by the education system, the voters of Massachusetts REQUIRED it of the school systems. As for the Bryants, they choose to home-school their kids and the government says they can. It puts a few provisos on them to ensure that they educate their children at least as well as the state can. One of those provisos is that homeschooled kids be able to pass MCAS or demonstrate equivalent capability. That's real simple. I have run into a number of home schooled kids through church and from seeking babysitters for our own kids. Some of them were exceptionally well educated and well socialized, others were essentially uneducated. They could read, and do basic math and knew a few basics of society, history, etc. but had not received any advanced training in critical thinking, advanced sciences, etc. The critical difference between the well-educated and the poorly educated seems to be parental involvement. Those who educated their children well followed well established and thought out curricula and put some serious time into their kids, basically a full time job, plus overtime teaching, grading and socializing their kids. Those that failed to educate their kids well stuck only loosely to any established curriculum, failed to enforce academic discipline or normal school hours, failed to keep up with the grading, and often did not understand the matieral themselves and never bothered to try. Another difference I noticed between the successful home schoolers and unsuccessful home schoolers was an issue of attitude. The successful ones were commited to the education and worked hard to provide it and made sure their kids valued it and were equally commited to it. The unsuccessful were largely commited to removing their children from governmental interference. Their guiding principle was not better education, it was control and they resented the possibility that their children's values might be shaped by government. So the successful educated their children with the tools they needed to survive and flourish in our society and taught them the history of our country and the principles upon which it was founded, often pointing out the errors and outright violations perpetrated by our all too libral government. The unsuccessful taught their kids that the government was full of shit and should never be trusted for any reason. They tried to insulate themselves from the government and live in their own private world. Their kids are already falling behind. Among homeschoolers I have kept up with, one received a full scholarship to the Berkley Center for the Performing Arts in Boston and is a member of a number of concert orchestras. He is also a talented mathematician, but crunching numbers doesn't give him joy so he studies music. Another has gone on to a major university with full scholarship and is graduating in the top of her class. Yet another is in graduate school now. Among those who are keeping their kids out of school on "principle," one girl is 18 years old and working in a dollar store. Another is 19 and pregnant. Still another is working as a laborer. I'm not saying that home schooling is bad. On the contrary, I have seen ample evidence that homeschooled kids are better educated and value education more than public school kids. What I am saying is that the Bryants fit into a pattern that I have observed of homeschooling parents who di it more out of paranoia than a commitment to a higher quality education for their kids. And my observations of people of that motivation show me that their kids are poorly educated and that their resistance to testing has more to do with their paranoia and their fear that their ineptitude might be revealed. While I believe the government has gone WAAAY overboard in this, I also believe that the Bryants, like the Branch Davidians and the Weavers, set themselves up for this, not by distrusting government, but by being stupid and noisy about it. There are MANY homeschoolers who teach their children the truth and deny government undue influence in the rearing of their children, and never have any problems because they fly under the radar so to speak. THey toss the government enough "bones" to keep it happy, and continue on their merry way. Remember, the sqeaky Wheel gets the grease and the nail that stands up gets hammered down, meanwhile a screw that tightened down flush goes un-noticed while still holding the world together.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:05:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: It's never as simple as simple people think.
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Yeah, let's hear it for "reasonable restrictions." Nice ad hominem, by the way. I almost missed it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:14:15 AM EDT
Right back at you. "it takes a village"??? That's insulting. Answer the question about an Islamic father's right to not educate his daughters. If you agree he has this right, shame on you. If you think he does not/should not have such a right, welcome to my position.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:21:52 AM EDT
The way parents raise their children is entirely up to them. My...how did this country get along before compulsory education laws?
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 11:37:14 AM EDT
Not educating your children is abuse. They are individuals with rights, NOT property. What about medical care? No problem with withholding it, huh? After all...
"The way parents raise their children is entirely up to them"
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Is it OK to have sex with your kids? Hey, what right does the government have to tell me how to raise my kids? Their mine, and no one has the right to tell me what I can and can't do with them. If I want to raise one of them down in the cellar, and make him eat out of a dog bowl, that's my right, too. After all...
"The way parents raise their children is ENTIRELY up to them"
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