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Posted: 6/15/2003 7:38:27 AM EDT
heres what I am thinking, Which would be better for a rifle to defend your home/property and maybe a rifle to get you outta town if things go bad. I am actually leaning towards the AK! here is my reasons AR's are real accurate and in my opinion the round is a better stopper but on my property I only have about 150 yards or so surrounding my house so I don't need the ar range. also if I need to shoot thru something the the 762x39 is going to punch thru better than the 223, right? then again the sights suck but are ok for close range like 100yds. and then there price...
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 7:49:15 AM EDT
Dammit man, haven't you learned yet..... GET BOTH! [:D]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 7:59:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunslinger808: Dammit man, haven't you learned yet..... GET BOTH! [:D]
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Yup...and a Mossberg 500, and a .45...and a boot knife...and some dynamite...and a compass...[:D]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:05:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Originally Posted By Gunslinger808: Dammit man, haven't you learned yet..... GET BOTH! [:D]
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Yup...and a Mossberg 500, and a .45...and a boot knife...and some dynamite...and a compass...[:D]
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...and a tape measure, and a stapler and a napkin. They always forget the napkin. Oh, wait. Sorry. Wrong thread. To answer the question seriously, though, which do you think you will be able to "procure" ammunition for in the event of civil unrest?
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:13:05 AM EDT
And a bowling ball. Why? I don't know.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:17:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Originally Posted By Gunslinger808: Dammit man, haven't you learned yet..... GET BOTH! [:D]
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Yup...and a Mossberg 500, and a .45...and a boot knife...and some dynamite...and a compass...[:D]
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got the first 3 no dynamite :(
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:20:57 AM EDT
Good friend of mine recommends both. Use the Ak til no more ammo, then transition to AR. Of course you could also deal with the people who show up who you want to stay but are unarmed, you now have an extra rifle for defense. SO as stated before get both, except get three of each. then you can spend the whole day at the range shooting lots of ammo and never get bored with one gun.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:23:02 AM EDT
so I could get 2 cheap AK's for a price of a AR? what would be a good reliable AR? a Bushmaster?
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:27:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz: ...To answer the question seriously, though, which do you think you will be able to "procure" ammunition for in the event of civil unrest?
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If you are "procuring" ammo, then wouldn't you most likely be able to "procure" a suitable weapon at the same time? Lets say you are down to your last mag of 5.56, but you come across that mean old farmer Huck who doesn't want to pool resources and do his part to re-establish civil society. Cap old Huck in the head, collect his Marlin 336 and the ten boxes of 170 grain .30-30 Winchester Power Points. Drain off his still. Comfort and "rescue" the farmers 16 year old "finer then frog fur" and "sweet as a fresh water clam" daughter. Then get busy reproducing the first generation of the post apocalypse world. [sniper] [booze] [sex] [:D] [BD]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:31:59 AM EDT
[b]I am actually leaning towards the AK![/b] you have chosen wisely, my son. 7.62x39 can be found in any wal-mart, all gun shops and many sporting goods stores. however, for those that absolutely have to have a "good ol' usa bullit in dey gun", 5.56 nato chambered kalashnikovs are manufactured by..uh...lessee...china, russia, bulgaria, romania, poland, east germany, india and god knows where else.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:34:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:40:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: my preference would still be a 762 nato rifle. More than enough puch for that range and will penetrate most cover including vehicles. Accuracy and punch in the same package. A FAL or cetme will be within a 100 bucks or so of an ak. mags and parts are just as pletiful and cheap. mike
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but 556 and 762x39 can be had very cheap not 308.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:43:38 AM EDT
First is a good handgun that you can carry and shoot well, SIG-Glock-HK-1911, it does not matter. If you dont have a gun with you it won,t matter. Then a rifle you will practice and compete with just like "I know you will" with your handgun. I rather my friend have a 30-30 they can shoot well than an AR-AK-FN-HK that they can't shoot well when the chips are down, for that matter throw a 30-30 in the closet for safekeeping, and use your AR to compete with in IPSC or tac-3-gun. AR's are head and shoulders above AK's in the way of a defensive rifles, but don't rule out a 308 like an FN, remember the only reason the military went with a 223 vs. a 308 is the solders load, not a worry in a defense scenario, and then the only reason they went to the M14 is because the FN was not made in the US at the time. From what I have seen, unless someone competes or at least practices with others to have some pressure they can't operate the gun worth a dam when the chips are down. Go to a Tac-3-gun match and an IDPA match and look around before you make your decision.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:48:31 AM EDT
but then again doesn't a simple rifle have a advantage. I mean you grab a ak pop off the large safety and start firing.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:07:49 AM EDT
1. What ammunition will be the most available in the United States, 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm? 2. What will be your area of engagement? There in lies your answer. Get something chambered for the most widely available ammunition and something that you will be able to reach the outer edges of your area of operations. Mike, do you think that in this situation you would restrict yourself to staying on only your property? No hunting, no patrols, no foraging? Personally I would want to give myself the option of being able to hit someone at 600 meters accurately if the need arose. But then the 7.62x39 has more penetration and stopping power. Each has it's benefits and it's detractors.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:11:12 AM EDT
Strange how many think of combat when discussing a SHTF scenerio. I guess it all comes down to what SHTF means to you. In my eyes, a SHTF scenerio is unlikely, but if it happens, it will be an infastructure destroying natural event, or econimic conditions resulting in a temporary loss of order (anarchy). One could easily cause the other, but as I said, both are unlikely. Supplies such as water, food, and fuel (heating/vehicle) are far more important than any utility possibly gained out of the AR vs AK argument. This being said, weaponry has it's place, as people without staples may begin to eye your inventory. Either way, keeping a low profile would be paramount. This is an interesting acedemic argument, but is fairly meaningless in the scope of a SHTF scenerio.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:31:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 10:50:47 AM EDT by sgtstinger]
My main SHTF rifle is actually a Springfield Armory Inc. M1A (.308 caliber) with an EO-Tech 552 on it, so I've been going through the process of selecting a "back-up" rifle. Something more of a carbine that'll fit in a trunk easily rather than a full-size rifle like the M1A. My goal is to have something accurate & effective out to 200 yards. After screwing around with a couple of AK's and an SKS trying to get the job done, I've come back to the AR. I'm currently about finished putting together one with a flat-top upper receiver & 16" barrel. The 7.62x39 catridge has plenty of power out to 150 - 200 yards, but...I found the rifles lacked acceptable accuracy. One of the AK's(a milled receiver Gordon Tech SLR-100) would group about 12" - 14" at 100 yards, the other AK(a SAR-1) would group about 8" - 10" at the same range. The SKS(a Chinese) would give me about 6" - 8" groups at 100 yards. I tried several types of ammo with each rifle, but the results were pretty much the same in each case. All were reliable as Hell, NEVER had a jam of any kind with any of them. And the price of AK mags & 7.62x39 ammo is damned hard to beat...BUT it all falls back to the fact that I like to hit what I'm shooting at. If you can find an AK that's accurate and you like it, then more power to you. If I were ever to try another AK-type weapon(not likely in this lifetime!), I'd probably get one of the VEPR K's in 7.62x39 from Robinson Armament. They can be found for around $500 or so and the fit & finish is MUCH better than that of a standard, run of the mill AK. Some guys over on ak-47.net are reporting 2" - 3" groups at 100 yards with theirs. The rifle is actually built on a RPK receiver which is supposedly sturdier than even a milled receiver. AK's & SKS's are also very easy to maintain, especially if you don't have a lot of experience with weapons. The M16/AR15 operating system is a bit more complicated, but nothing that you can't learn fairly quickly. I spent 6 1/2 years in the Army, so the M16/AR15 operating system is second nature to me. In the end, the choice is up to you. If it were me, however, I'd try to get to shoot a couple of each type of rifle before I made my decision.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:35:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mike45acp:
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: my preference would still be a 762 nato rifle. More than enough puch for that range and will penetrate most cover including vehicles. Accuracy and punch in the same package. A FAL or cetme will be within a 100 bucks or so of an ak. mags and parts are just as pletiful and cheap. mike
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but 556 and 762x39 can be had very cheap not 308.
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Actually, .308 mil-surp ammo can be found cheaper than .223 ammo these days. For example, both Portugese .308 & South African .308 is going for about $150 per 1000 rounds. Most .223 is going for about $200 per 1000 rounds.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:49:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: my preference would still be a 762 nato rifle. More than enough puch for that range and will penetrate most cover including vehicles. Accuracy and punch in the same package. A FAL or cetme will be within a 100 bucks or so of an ak. mags and parts are just as pletiful and cheap. mike
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Not to mention that the CETME has such a lack of recoil, I was really and truly shocked when I fired my friends'.......
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:56:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 9:57:45 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Academically, the CETME in its Century form would be a terrible choice. So would any braked rifle. Two of the loudest rifle I've ever heard were the Century CETME (the old Century G3 had the same brake and was equally as loud), and the Bushmaster Shorty AK. If you ever had to fire one without ear protection, especially indoors, you'll likely burst your eardrums.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:09:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:28:34 AM EDT
Just get the godamned ak!
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:42:24 AM EDT
My SHTF "rifle" is a Rem 870 unless I have to pick off zombies from long range.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 10:49:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: ...and then I'd rather buy American [:D]
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Yep, I gotta admit that Patriotic politics are also playing a part in my decision-making process.
Originally Posted By Tactical0: Just get the godamned ak!
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Been there, done that...TWICE! Got burned BOTH times. Not likely to happen again. Just trying to pass along my experience and help steer another lost soul away from the Dark Side...[nono]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 11:37:48 AM EDT
I would use the same thing I would use for the zombie/clown/velociraptors/tree rats/space alien problems, what I already have: A 30-06 Weatherby An AR15 bushy/colt A Mossy 500 12 gauge A G22 I might consider an SKS addition to the cache. All ammo for these are available, some of it relatively cheap. Easy to maintain too. Bilster
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 11:54:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 11:58:37 AM EDT by Ross]
A rifle A shotgun A handgun A .22LR rifle Just get one of each that you like and is of decent quality. If you can use it, it won't matter much what it is in the bigger scheme of things. Someone who knows how to use an M1903 Springfield, a Winchester M12, a M1911A1 and a Marlin 39 is a pretty dangerous guy even with near 100yr old guns. It's HOW you use what you have, not WHAT you have. If you get some training, you'll figure out what is best for you. If you aren't going to get trained or train anyway, then what you buy is immaterial. Many people start training and figure out some of their choices in gear, guns, etc, (usually made based on the info in gun rags or the internet) wound up being wrong. Just like racing, a drvier needs to know how to drive correctly before pouring all sorts of money into a race car. Get yourself some training, the choice will then fall into place. Ross
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 12:20:11 PM EDT
My SHTF secondary is Glock and Benelli while my primary is always an AR15. They never jam anymore after I started using CLP instead of cheapass oil and I have total confidence in them. Used them on 18"+ of snow, raining, rapid fire with several mags and still works good. Cleaning is easy and quick if you are performing a "combat-level" cleaning on them. Some spare parts and cleaning stuff should be always accompanied for prolonged SHTF though.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 12:37:49 PM EDT
Either- but consider this: The AR15 is more accurate if you need to make a critical shot. It's been proven over the last 20 years to be a better manstopper. An AR15 with 200 rds is a much lighter carry. plus you can take it apart to remain inconspicous. every bit as reliable Better availability of parts. If your SHTF scenario infolves OPFOR using body armor, accuracy will be very important. AR15 wins!
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 3:15:30 PM EDT
I am not a crackshot by any means, but, with iron sights, I can put rounds on the target out to 300 meters with my Bushmaster XM15, SAR-1 Romanian AK47, and my vintage Russian SKS. I can put more rounds on the target with the Bushmaster in a shorter period of time, but when it gets right down to it, all three weapons get the job done. I have put hundreds of rounds through each of them and have only had a few magazine-related jams. 5.56mm and 7.62 ammo is plentiful where ever you go. One makes bigger holes than the other but both are lethal. Surplus mags for both are cheap at gun shows. I like them both but if I had to pick between the two, I believe I would go with the AR. Panzer Out
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 3:44:22 PM EDT
I would like to say AK47, but I must go AR15. Although AK's are more reliable, and ammo is cheaper, AR's have two main advantages. #1: theyre more acurate. #2: SHIT HITS THE FAN, the guys your shooting at will most likely be carrying M16 mag's and ammo. And in any case, the SHTF enemy will have a automatic weapon(be it an M16, or if its one of em blue helmet freaks, it'll be something like a G36), so this will only be temporary.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:56:48 PM EDT
I have an AK in .223 mags could be hard to find if shtf.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 7:05:51 PM EDT
If you are still alive after the first couple of magazines, you will be able to choose from quite an assortment of weapons. It will take me days to decide on which rifle to choose.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 7:09:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 7:11:13 PM EDT by Hokie]
22lr (Rem 597) 223 (M4gery and SPR) 308 (FAL) 300 (Scoped Bolt Action) 9mm (Glock & Sub2000) 45auto (1911 pistol) You'll be fine, provided you can carry all at once. If you can only have one... I'd get an ARAKFAL, then go find a stash of water, rations, and a brothel.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 11:38:19 PM EDT
If I'm stuck in an urban area, AR carbine/M1 carbine. Out in the sticks, M1A/M1 Garand. Indoors 1911A1/Mossberg 12ga.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 11:59:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SS109: If you are still alive after the first couple of magazines, you will be able to choose from quite an assortment of weapons. It will take me days to decide on which rifle to choose.
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Im thinking the same thing if its a .gov initated SHTF.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 11:42:32 AM EDT
It will probably be my aR because it's lighter. I'll have to make do with standard A2 sites though, it's plain Jane no optics.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:10:08 PM EDT
What, no AR10 fans? [8D] I would go with 12ga. Either Mossberg 590 or Winchester 1300 for shotgun. Ammo everywhere. 1991/1911- for parts. Well equipped Lightweight Bushy. Accuracy, weight. AR10, why not.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 8:06:40 PM EDT
None of you guys have it... you want to be able to resupply using your enemy's ammo, mags, etc. In the case here of govt gone crazy, that means, currently, a .223/5.56 firearm, that takes NATO (that is USGI) mags... an AR15 guys.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 8:13:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 8:14:06 PM EDT by flash-hider]
Originally Posted By DPeacher: If you are "procuring" ammo, then wouldn't you most likely be able to "procure" a suitable weapon at the same time? Lets say you are down to your last mag of 5.56, but you come across that mean old farmer Huck who doesn't want to pool resources and do his part to re-establish civil society. Cap old Huck in the head, collect his Marlin 336 and the ten boxes of 170 grain .30-30 Winchester Power Points. Drain off his still. Comfort and "rescue" the farmers 16 year old "finer then frog fur" and "sweet as a fresh water clam" daughter. Then get busy reproducing the first generation of the post apocalypse world.
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[ROFL]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:12:38 AM EDT
I have had the displeasure of being in a few SHTF situations. You can't buy anything if there is no electricity, even if find a store that want's to be open. Cash registers don't work, ATM's don't work, credit card scanners don't work, etc. Cash only, and then, maybe not. Do you know the word "barter"? And the first thing the "authorities" will do is stop gun and ammo sales, esp ammo. They know that the average gun owner has only half a box of ammo left over from last hunting season. Don't run around flashing your weapons, police or military will either shoot you on sight or stop you and confiscate. Now they have night vision. Either limit yourself to daylight (and try to look civilian), or buy night vision. STOCK AA's, 2 or three bulk packs. Also plenty of fresh D's for your Maglight, and extra bulbs. Do you know how to calculate the proper resistor for charging AA nicads from a 12v car battery? I do. So, look in your armory, what you have right now is sufficient if things stopped today, huh? Do you have enough ammo? mags? food? water? Have you ever cooked your dinner right in the can, huddled around a small fire, watching your back? I have, more than a few times. In today's world, .223/5.56 is what you'd better be stocking.
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