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Posted: 6/14/2003 6:05:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 8:23:11 AM EDT by Miss_Magnum]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:12:01 AM EDT
Ok.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:18:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 2:09:28 PM EDT by cmjohnson]
I was wondering where you'd been... Thanks for the info and the explanation of the female perspective of this forum. When you're right, you're right! And you are right on every point you made. Yeah, some of us can be sexist pigs with a one sided view of things, but then again, some of us are actually pretty nice guys who aren't disrespectful and also aren't trying to get into your pants, too. (I doubt they'd fit me anyway! [:D] ) I was about to ask if you'd considered changing your handle, but I thought about it and concluded that I wouldn't do that myself, so why expect you to? I retract the question before it's asked. It's nice to know you're still here. You are a refreshing breath of fresh air in here, even if you didn't win the radio contest despite our help! Stick around... PLEASE. CJ Edited because I saw Tatjana's name in the initial posting and didn't see MM's name as the poster. I shouldn't post before noon on Saturday as I'm not awake at that time, apparently.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:19:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:25:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By iNuhBaDNayburhood: Thank You!!! ::Golf Clap:: A woman telling it how it is. A refreshing change on ARFCOM. I mainly noticed the sexist attitudes, and the condescendence with regards to gun related issues. I notice such things (even though I'm a guy) because people are very condescending to me for being so young (22), and that's a problem for many people... I don't claim to know everything, but I also don't claim to know nothing, because I know a great deal.
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hell, were all here to learn. you gotta be a young buck before you can be an old timer. goes with the territorry.. oh, and its been nice hearing from you again miss_magnum. wish you would always pring yore pearls of sanity to this mad house..
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:26:37 AM EDT
... Yup, it's a tough crowd here [b]Miss_Magnum[/b]. For example, see how long a typical "outtie" from this crowd would last at Ms.Online; those radical feminists will shred you to pieces! ... Anyway, don't let a few bad apples run you or other womenz off. We enjoy your participation. BTW, I'm truly am sorry about that PhotoShop job I did on you a couple years ago. Posting your pix here is just soooo tempting to us PhotoShop warriors. ... Good to hear from you
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:31:16 AM EDT
How about a new board on AR the "tea room"? Oh they allready have a board for the women to post away from all the knuckle draggers. No offense intended, but this is a board titled AR15.com Mostly all men, not all knuckle draggers, but when such a large group of men get together they joke around, say things they normally wouldn't around women. You can also kinda tell the topic of the post before you read it.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:33:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:33:57 AM EDT
Thank you, MM. Your longevity here is amazing. You have the best combination of guts and brains, making that possible. It all adds up to [b]class[/b]. Plus, I hear you're one hell of a wrestler! [;D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:38:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: I was wondering where you'd been... It's nice to know you're still here. You are a refreshing breath of fresh air in here, most especially with your well-researched and educational presentations on ammo ballistics. Those are always informative and good reading. Stick around... PLEASE. CJ
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Uh... bro, that was [b]Tatjana[/b], not [b]Miss Magnum[/b]... [;D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:40:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:42:53 AM EDT
WAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! Kiss My Ass!!!!!!! This is a MAN place!!!!!! Go away little girl!!!!!! JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was doing my best impression of a cross between Imbroglio, Mcuzi and a few others on a day where they go off on someone big time. Seriously I know of another lady who lives near me and she used to be a member here but she caught so much shit everytime she posted here from some of the assinine type that she almost never comes around anymore and she is an educated, friendly albiet a smartass when she wants to be but she is also military and has also worked armed security and I think she has a lot to contribute to the site from her perspective especially for alot of the other women here who prefer to hear from a woman instead of a man sometimes.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:58:11 AM EDT
Who care if you have different plumbing than most members here? What matters is that you are a member of the gun culture and are involved in its promotion. Your posting handle is a little obvious so you want people to know you are female. That will always make some guys want to get next to you. Stay or go, it's up to you, but as for me, the more ideas that float around this bord the better off we will all be. No matter who you are.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:03:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:08:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 7:10:51 AM EDT by Silence]
Ive always wondered how some of the people keep from shorting out their keyboards with all the drooling they seem to do over a female poster. Oh yeah the near immediate requests/demands for pics (with nude pics taken a sizable percentage of the demands) to 'prove' that the person is actually a female. Why should they 'prove' anythign? I never saw why it mattered if a person was a female or not. Dont expect a personal relationship with anyone online, especially someone that may or may not be the opposite sex. See the same things all the time in online games too. I will now relate a story: Back a couple of years ago when I was playing EQ, I was in a 'guild' (a group of people in a player run organization for those clueless folks out there), it was a pretty sizable guild, Think we had 30-40 people in it. Well one of the guys (call him Sam) in the guild got his brother (ben) to join the guild, now the thing is his brother played a female character, named 'Ontineb' (benito backwards), (he said it was because he would rather be stuck looking at a female ass when he played than a male one, due to the Point of views in the game). Well anyway it was widely known when he joined the guild that he wasnt really a female, everyone was cool with it, well time went by and more people joined the guild no biggy, but not everyone was told that this person was actually a male. Now I will say we had a couple of husband/wife teams in the guild. But anyway one say several months later we were dicussing when to do stuff in the game over 'guild chat' (where everybody in the guild can hear and talk to each other), and Sam said that 'Oni' (we always used 'character' names to prevent confusion for the people with multiple characters) had a date and couldnt make it. Well one of the newer guild members (lets call him fred) spoke up and said something along the lines of 'Damn, I was hoping she was single'. We all laughed, I spoke up and said 'err, she?'. This guy said 'Yeah'. Then about 3 people from the guild said 'Oni is a guy' at the same time. Turns out that Fred had had unclean thoughts about 'Oni'. (One thing I have seen in online games is that more and more actual females are playing them, and some play 'male' characters simply to avoid the bullshit that they get treated to). Sad part is Ben never said he was female, never acted or pretended to be female, or anything. Moral of the story is that unless you have personally seen/met the person, dont 'flog the dolphin' or (insert your own favorite euphemism here) to your image of the person. And above all if you do it and it is a goofup, dont ever admit it in public. Fred never lived it down.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:11:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:15:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kevf7: How about a new board on AR the "tea room"? Oh they allready have a board for the women to post away from all the knuckle draggers. No offense intended, but this is a board titled AR15.com. Mostly all men...(snip)
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Seems you have missed Miss Magnum's excellent points completely. The board is called AR15.com. NOT the He-Man-Woman-Haters-Club. Get it? It doesn't take a man to enjoy guns and AR15s. The board is a GUN BOARD. Not the ever so sacred goddamned Boy's Clubhouse. I bet I know a few women that can outshoot you, boy.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:21:32 AM EDT
About the sexism, part of this board is people complaining about things in real life. A good rant is a great way to relieve stress, whether it be against bosses, family members or the opposite sex. These rants are typically unfair and exaggerate the negative traits of the other people. So not all the sexist comments are actually meant.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:25:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:47:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 7:47:37 AM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
My girlfriend is a member here(AKA: "Haftaby" in case any of you care to IM her and welcome her to the board) but has 0 posts. She likes to read and wants to post but is a little shy due to some of the remarks made towards other female posters here.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:48:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:49:16 AM EDT
Welcome to Haftaby! Please post, we got your 6, Sis. [wave]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:50:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:02:08 AM EDT
My wife has had lots of comments on lots of post here over the last few years but hasn't had the time to sit down and reply but has told me to relay a message now and then especially on some of the ETH topics. I will try to get her to break free from her rigorous schedule and post some.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:17:22 AM EDT
Hanna, I'm far from a woman hater. I enjoy posts here from men and women. This is a Gun Board for men and women, even children. All I'm saying is (and we should'nt) that men in a group (as well as women) when they aren't paying attention to if a lady or child is near say and do things we would not normally do. But one should not expect total political correctness in this environment. My post was not intended to personally offend. I appollogize if it was taken that way. I know that many women are good shooters and many men not so good. I would like to see more men, women, and children in the shooting sports, RTKBA, and support of other freedoms we are loosing. But if ya cant take the heat get out the kitchen.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:21:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:24:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: The men at shoots who doubt your credibility as a shooter merely because you have an innie instead of an outtie.
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I have never had a problem when I go to shoots. I belong to a shooting club. We shoot on Monday nights. I am the only woman that is in the club. They are very helpful and even when TBK1 can not go (due to work) the guys are still decent to me. I have gone to several shoots with the ARFCOM bunch and they have all been very kind and some let you try and shoot their guns. The reason I don't post much is that we have a hard time for me to get logged in. I was surprised it took this time. As for the men talking about their problems, I don't see anything wrong with that. Us women have other women to talk to that are very close friends. These guys are each others friends so they are just venting like we do. As for men making comments about women, what is wrong with that? As long as they are not crude and nasty about it, there is nothing wrong with it. We women, or I mean I, will look and make a comment on another man. Just looking, no touching. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:28:08 AM EDT
My dad taught me to respect women. I am old school.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:32:13 AM EDT
MM, Yes, this is kind of a boys clubhouse in here with a big "No Girlz Alowd" sign on the door. On one hand its great to have the brothers to talk to. On the other.... --LS
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:35:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By longshot_va: MM, Yes, this is kind of a boys clubhouse in here with a big "No Girlz Alowd" sign on the door.
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And just where do you get this ridiculous notion? You must be looking for NoGirlzAlowd.com. It's gay board, I think, but you won't have to deal with speaking to non-males there.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:45:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: And just where do you get this ridiculous notion?
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Uuuh, from what MM said in the initial post of this thread. (?) The way women are treated here. (i.e. poorly and with little respect) (?) Where have you been? --LS
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:53:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:12:52 AM EDT
Because this is a man dominated board, with members ages, experiences and education varying a large degree, one expects there to be a considerable amount of the good ole boys club mentality, which can result in seemingly off-color humor and many remarks that otherwise would be inappropriate. Put into the context of the board, and understanding this is a discussion board with some resultant anonymity, members sometimes free to say things they otherwise would not. This does not vary to any great degree from what one would find on a primarily female dominated discussion board. In fact females tend to be far more catty to one another and certainly carry grudges and behave disrespectfully to one another in a far greater fashion that anything I have witnessed on here. Equality is a two way street. You cannot expect equality if as a gender you demonstrate behavior inconsistent with your expectations. While definitely not a feminist, I do believe in equality. A feminist being someone who is PRO WOMAN. I am pro individual. I have never used the poor me female card so many women do, but I have lived almost entirely surrounded by men. Raised solely by an elderly father (he was 65 when I was born) I was exposed to views that were definitely not "modern" and definitively male. I also had 5 much older brothers. My post-secondary education was spent in a predominately male environment. I have earned the respect of the men in my life that are important personally and professionally. I have tolerated disrespect from others based solely on my gender, understanding their perception of woman is based on their experiences -- many unfortunate. I have never felt a need to engage in a battle of the sexes. I won that battle several years ago when I received my MD and flourish in a traditionally male-dominated profession. I have no axe to grind with either sex. Everyone has their own motivations for their actions, but it's pretty clear when a man has issues with women, or a woman has issues with men and those issues are usually the result of insecurities born out of an utter lack of success. Unless one takes personally the comments on a board such as this, there is no reason to feel offended. If at any point the offenses outweigh the benefits, then the best recourse would be to hit the little X in the right hand corner of your screen and close down AR15.com. We all control and choose our online experiences to a great degree. There is little room to place blame on others for "bad" experiences on here. I won't leave this board because of seemingly rude or off-color remarks. I might leave if I no longer enjoy or benefit from the forum. So far, it's been overwhelmingly educational and enjoyable. However, I have spent my life in male dominated areas and perhaps am less susceptible. TT [coffee]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:22:38 AM EDT
Swimming with Sharks! MM, Thanks for the sanity check. As usual, everything you said makes sense and probly needs to be reemphasized here periodically to remind us that we are all human beings and should treat each other as such, even in an on-line environment. The problem with an on-line environment is that not being face to face, and with the distinct possibility of NEVER meeting 90% of the people you interact with here, it is sometimes easy to slip into bad habits and forget that those we talk to and interact with here are indeed flesh, blood, bone and feelings at the other end. With that in mind, everyone is, so to speak, swimming with sharks here, as there is a crowd who do tend to look before they leap. In my 43 years, one thing I have learned is to not jump to conclusions, and to try and realize there are two sides to any story. As such, I try to dispense advice and word my comments here with that in mind.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:27:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:38:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: I'm feeling argumentative
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I guess you found something. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:42:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:52:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 10:13:38 AM EDT by DigDug]
Honest question? Why do people feel the need to paint a broad brush across every person on this board? The vast majority of members on this board don't come running when a female posts, so to generalize that the entire AR15 community has a problem is a stretch. If you have a problem with a member, why can't you IM them and tell them to knock it off? If they keep it up and it turns into harrassment, take it to a mod. I specifically avoid posting to the "look at me" threads in GD. I'm not saying that females always post "look at me" thread, but I have seen quite a few recently. Some are specifically looking for attention, and I recently read one that was BS, with false accusations being made by the thread initiator. People like to have fun with different topics, but lying to get someone in trouble it a bad thing. I don't know why I posting this, as it doesn't make any profound conclusions. I guess there is blame to go around on both sides though....
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:13:08 AM EDT
Because Glocks really ARENT tupperware?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:18:43 AM EDT
With all due respect to the ladies on this board, please try to understand that males in general, white males in particular have been singled out for a lot of harsh criticism since the 60’s, BASED ON BEHAVIOURS THAT WERE COMMON MAINLY BEFORE MOST OF US WERE BORN. Most of us were raised to be better than that, I do believe that men in general behave better than in the past, yet we are constantly besieged, badgered and treated in society, and in the courts of law, as if we are indeed the guilty parties of any wrong done to xxxx (pick your favorite label of oppressed party.). I myself was raised by what amounts to a single female during the 50’s and 60’s. I do understand unfair conditions. I also know that I make a pretty good attempt at being a good person, and along with that fact I do know that being a white male in today’s society has not been to my benefit. I do believe that it is time for TRUE equality, no more bonus points for being anything but a white male, no more raises, promotions, job openings being made open for any reason but ability, no more watching your life get flushed down the toilet because your “better” half cheats and “you are the man, so you pay.” I will apologize for myself if my views offend, I will not apologize for having them. They were hard earned, and I do feel that I’ve gained them based on fact. However, I no longer remain silent when wronged just because it is the PC thing to do. This board is also one of the few places that society safely allows us to vent in. After all what else can you expect from these right wing-gun loving cavemen? And MM, on a more pointed subject, I do also believe that most of us haven’t given up, and are still respectful to the ladies despite our bad experiences with them. I’m pretty sure that Lady Rain would give me high marks for being a good partner and companion, despite my obvious disdain of what passes for acceptable beliefs in life’s realities. I’m reasonably sure that you do catch the fact that the majority of us are bewildered but trying, based on some of the answers that you send back. Be patient with us, try to understand where some of this comes from, and most of all try to understand that for many of us, this is a release valve where we can spend our fury at some of what is wrong in our lives. The more of you ladies that stick around, and are willing to at least consider our viewpoints, the better for all of us. Society has gotten a bit out of wack, and the pendulum has to swing back a bit, and letting us air our views is one way to understand the subject from our perspective.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:41:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: Now, tell me, would you men be interested in sticking around if you were subjected to all of that bullshit?
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Sadly for women, thats the way the world is. You cant just hide from the world. You must find a way to deal with it. Men and women have different places in society and each must lean to accept their roles. Alot of women are not satisfied with the role they play and thats what upsets the balance. This is not meant in a chauvinistic way its......just the way it is.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:49:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: TT, You're missing the point, I believe.
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No, I read what you wrote and understood it.
Hannah and I, both long time members here who have no intention of leaving, have noticed it and tried to bring it to people's attention.
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You are naive in thinking you can alter anyone's behavior.
[i]If the intent of this board is to promote RKBA issues and be a positive example of the gun community as a whole, then what are we doing alienating almost half of the population???[/i]
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I have not felt alienated in the least. The barbs and attempted insults hurled at me by people who I do not know on a internet discussion board have no bearing on my life. I have received a tremendous amount of education and resultant knowledge from the people who generously shared their experiences and knowledge with me. I would not call that alienation.
And answer me this.... is it possible to be hurt by one woman or ten or twenty and not be bitter and derogatory about the entire gender?
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Your experiences with men have been vastly different from mine, if that is what you perceive. I have not experienced that in the least. Put into context what you read and who the comments are addressed to. I have experienced several harsh comments on this board usually by the same people. I can either elect to ignore them or respond and perpetuate them. I generally tend to ignore them.
Is it possible to celebrate the strengths in men without it being necessary to put down women?
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I admire some of the support the men provide one another on here. People make comments based on their opinions which are formulated out of education and experience. To expect everyone to think or express similar opinions is unrealistic. I don't read many threads that are women-bashing as a gender threads. They do exist, but they are generally start as anecdotal experiences which are meaningless.
Is it possible for a female newbie to join this board and not be heckled and interrogated and then be blamed for not having a thick skin if she gets upset?
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Why would comments made on a discussion board upset anyone? Put them into context. Comments made by internet posters have no bearing or ability to affect me or change my life.
This is NOT a men's only forum.
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I stated male dominated.
They do have those though. This is a much larger issue and it's one that we should be united in promoting.
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It starts individually. I clearly stated I believe in equality. Equality is a two way street. You cannot expect equality if as a gender you demonstrate behavior inconsistent with your expectations.
I think the whole rationale that that "boys will be boys" and that everyone needs to toughen up and allow this bullshit is SELFISH on the part of those who insist on being allowed to behave this way...
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Within the confines of the board rules, no one "allows" another to behave one way or the other. We all elect to behave the way we do. "Bullshit" is relative as is "bad" behavior.
...when compared to the greater benefits of simply being CIVIL human beings and fostering a positive image of the gun community as a whole.
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I applaud the board staff and moderators for maintaining the image of the gun community that they do on this board. I do believe that while it is overwhelming positive, it is also representative of a cross-section of society which as in every interest area contains a percentage people who are narrow minded. Conflict exists in every avenue of life. Personal conflict, professional conflict, societal conflict etc.. How we elect to cope with the conflicts we face determines to a great degree how successful we will be and how satisfying will be find our encounters with others. I would never dream of believing I can change anyone's behavior. I do believe I can influence on occasion someone's thought processes if I present a well-informed, non-emotional view point. As I stated earlier, I have tolerated disrespect from others based solely on my gender, understanding their perception of woman is based on their experiences -- many unfortunate. I have never felt a need to engage in a battle of the sexes. I won that battle several years ago when I received my MD and flourish in a traditionally male-dominated profession. I have no axe to grind with either sex. I am overtly confident and assured, that trait alone intimidates many -- males and females. Does that bother me? No. Why? Because again that is a choice they make. A choice they live with. Something that has no bearing or influence on my life. This post will perhaps be viewed as confrontational. That is indeed not my intent. I am in no way condoning some of the posts on here. I am simply doing exactly what you are asking/expecting everyone to do MissMagnum and that is be respectful of other's expression of opinions. I do not need to agree with them and I can choose to voice my disagreement or not. TT [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:17:42 AM EDT
Sadly enough, even in this enlightened era most women continue to run away in fright/disgust when a man exposes himself to them. I think this is more a problem with our society as a whole, specifically a lack of tolerance and appreciation of diversity, rather than this board in particular. cynic
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:29:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cynic: Sadly enough, even in this enlightened era most women continue to run away in fright/disgust when a man exposes himself to them. I think this is more a problem with our society as a whole, specifically a lack of tolerance and appreciation of diversity, rather than this board in particular. cynic
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Well don't expose yourself then!
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:38:13 AM EDT
Miss_Magnum I have always thought of you as one of the guys. I thought you understood the differences between men and women and accepted them. I accept them and don't ask other to change to suit me.
... is the sexist attitude that is [red]allowed [/red]to run rampant on this board. Even "esteemed" moderators and staff members on this board have made obscenely hateful statements about women.
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This is a 99.9 % male populated board. Why should the govern body of the board capitulate to the wishes of .01 %. Of course women are going to find things that happens here offensive. I find things offensive on a lot of FEMALE TYPE websites. No matter what you would like to belive most women would rather watch Oprah that go to the range. They would rather check out a Soap opera web site that AR15.com. I don't expect the women who come over the house to play cards with the wife not to bitch about the husbands just because I sit in on a hand or two. I know we are different and I like it. I have no problem showing respect to anyone. I have NEVER disrespected anyone because of gender. BUT I AM SICK AND TIRED OF ANY PERSON POINTING OUT HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE. Because someone is being offended, be it women or Muslims or any other minorities. Camaraderie is at its best when everyone can be themselves and let their guard down. Not when someone is told to behave because you may offend someone. That is what camaraderie is all about. Bye, I got to go make dinner for the wife.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:47:59 AM EDT
See, Sniper_Wolfe, even u-baddog says I don't have to behave myself because I may offend someone! Ah, the blessed freedom to be a narcissisist AND a pervert. Think of the possibilities... cynic
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:06:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:19:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:23:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:24:31 PM EDT
the only problem with women on this damned forum is....... [b]WE NEED MORE OF THEM.[/B]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 1:06:26 PM EDT
So where the hell is my pie?? Sgtar15
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