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Posted: 6/13/2003 9:35:44 PM EDT
I'd look up the past links but I can't find them.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:22:02 PM EDT
I have T-Mobile and they suck. At least here in the SF bay area. I drop calls on at least 50% of my calls. That is if I can find coverage of course. Don't know about Verizon.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:28:54 PM EDT
I think that Verison is recognized as the best service for cell phones. I have Verizon and am pretty happy. I rarely get dropped calls and I have a sales territory from Monterey Bay to Santa Rosa and from San Francisco to Stockton. The only place I have problems is between Gilroy and Monterey. Other than that I can't remember getting a dropped call. The price is pretty good too. Unlimited nights/weekends and 1000 anytime minutes and internet access for about 50 bucks when all is said and done I also get text messaging but I never used it once. I have seen lower prices from cingular and sprint, but I have heard a lot of bad things about their service. The one thing bad about Verizon is that if you go over on your minutes, you get screwed. Something on the order of 50 cents a minute. Get the most expensive plan available if you talk alot and you will never go over. Thats what I did. Good luck.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:38:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:56:33 PM EDT
Verizon has the largest network... No clue where t-Mobile ranks.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:17:12 AM EDT
I have [b]TWO[/b] sisters who work for TMobile...NIce company to work for, shitty company for cell service. When we go to my parents in San Jose, they have to use my [b]Verizon[/b] phone to get service. T has shitty reception in a LOT of places, Seattle included. Anytime their phones dont work, I have 5 bars. I have been with [forget name], then Airtouch & now Verizon with a steady account for 12 years. I always have good service everywhere.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:35:50 AM EDT
Two months ago, I drove from SW Missouri, up past Chicago, back down and over through Indiana and Ohio, than south through PA, WV, and into Virginia. My Verizon service worked the whole time. I occasionally have to do a "reboot" after switching areas (turn the thing off, then on again), but that is a minor issue.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:38:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: My Verizon service worked the whole time. I occasionally have to do a "reboot" after switching areas (turn the thing off, then on again), but that is a minor issue.
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*18 [send] to update I believe... While you and this topic are here..Any cell phones in the ROK? Civilian or GI or both? GI's get civilian service?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 1:03:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CavVet:
Originally Posted By Adam_White: My Verizon service worked the whole time. I occasionally have to do a "reboot" after switching areas (turn the thing off, then on again), but that is a minor issue.
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*18 [send] to update I believe... While you and this topic are here..Any cell phones in the ROK? Civilian or GI or both? GI's get civilian service?
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Cell phones in the ROK are way ahead of where they are here, in terms of price / performance anyway - the smaller country helps. All numbers are nationwide, incoming minutes are free, text messaging is free. There are 3 or 4 major providers, with the 011, 017 are code numbers having the best coverage - they will work even in such remote areas as Warrior Base, Nightmare Range, and Cp. Page. Your 016, 018, and 019 phones aren't quite that good (The way it is set up, each service gets its own area code). Caller ID works for not only from other cell phone providers but also land lines. "Foreigners" generally cannot get subscription service (I suppose you could go through the trouble of getting established with a Korean credit rating if you so desired), but pre-paid phone cards are readily available and cheap. Most generally work for overseas calls, but you can shop around for specific cards that have the best deals for specific countries. USFK contracts cell phone service from SK Telecom (011 and 017). 2ID has its own contract, and all Bn Level XOs, CSMs, and above get them provided to them. Most of us lowly worker bees pay out of pocket.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:04:10 AM EDT
WOW!!! Sorry to hijack! GREAT Cell info! One last ?..How much do worker bees pay for service? Ok, 2....Is using a cell the best way to call the 'world'? And btw, Welcome back....!
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:11:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:12:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:42:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: Also, I'm not sure if I am allowed to reveal when as it may be proprietary information but Verizon Wireless is coming out with our own Push To Talk phone as well as a camera phone VERY, VERY soon.
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Now this will be cool.... I did not want to switch service for this... woohoo!
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:00:12 AM EDT
I switched from Sprint PCS to Verizon and it was the best thing that I ever did. With Sprint I couldnt get a steady signal when in my house and forget about even trying to call from the basement. With Verizon I get a great signal from a lot more places then Sprint. BKVic
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:00:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 11:01:00 AM EDT by chetchat]
[b]T-Mobile...Get More[/b] [img]http://www.superiorpics.com/catherine_zeta_jones/images/catherine046.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:17:21 AM EDT
Consider cell phone loss or theft insurance...unless you have a low cost source for a replacement phone that the company will accept. Verizon came to my workplace with a great deal, 2 yrs ago. However, they did not offer insurance for lost phones...Naive to cell phone use, I didn't inquire. Months later, my phone was lost by DS...and Verizon wanted me to pay BiG Money to replace the phone. Said I should have purchased insurance. Go figure :( I'm a wiser consumer now Gwen in L.A.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 11:25:40 AM EDT
T-mobile is GSM - which loosely translates to digital only. If you leave the GSM digital area, your phone becomes a brick while the Verizon people can still roam on analog or other digital networks. That's a real pisser, because T-mobile's rates are great compared to the competition. I do just enough road-tripping to make GSM not worth it for me. If you pretty much never travel outside of the [url=http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/]GSM coverage area[/url], then it may be worth it for you. Aside from that, my current service is through verizon, and aside from the rates being slightly higher than the competition, I have no complaints about service. One other thing that I learned recently is that Verizon won't sell you a phone that doesn't have a retractable antenna. Check your phone before you buy, because some antennas may be prone to breakage. My wife's Motorola V120 is a prime example... she's on her 4th antenna.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:37:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CavVet: WOW!!! Sorry to hijack! GREAT Cell info!
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Oops! I let myself lose track of this thread. Asuming you were asking me about the ROK situation:
One last ?..How much do worker bees pay for service? Ok, 2....Is using a cell the best way to call the 'world'?
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Phones are set at the factory for specific service. Decent small phones are from $100 - 300 dollars (or the equivalent in won), I would estimate my monthly expenses in calls to be about 30-40 dollars. Since every call to a cell phone is local, it is great when at least one end has a land line - you need only make sure that person calls the cell, and not vice versa - remember, ALL incoming minutes are free. International long distance can be accomplished with the standard cards for the providers, but cheaper rats are available with other calling cards. It varies country to country as to the best card to use. I think I was paying maybe 10 cents a minute to call the US. The best part is, when you use the international long distance cards, it does not count against the minutes for your local account - it completely bypasses it! Contrast this with Verizon here, who tells me that if I use my KT calling card I purchased here to call Korea, I will eat up those minutes from my card (of course_ but also airtime against my Verizon account. As for the best to call the US, it depends. Week to week, some companies cards worked better than others (it is sometimes very hard to get through due to congestion). You could get really good deal from this one company if you had a local DSN line, but I had bad luck ever getting through.
And btw, Welcome back....!
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Thanks, it's nice to be back.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:47:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_camera_man: T-mobile is GSM - which loosely translates to digital only. If you leave the GSM digital area, your phone becomes a brick while the Verizon people can still roam on analog or other digital networks. That's a real pisser, because T-mobile's rates are great compared to the competition. I do just enough road-tripping to make GSM not worth it for me. If you pretty much never travel outside of the [url=http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/]GSM coverage area[/url], then it may be worth it for you. Aside from that, my current service is through verizon, and aside from the rates being slightly higher than the competition, I have no complaints about service. One other thing that I learned recently is that Verizon won't sell you a phone that doesn't have a retractable antenna. Check your phone before you buy, because some antennas may be prone to breakage. My wife's Motorola V120 is a prime example... she's on her 4th antenna.
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Actually the v120e has a fixed antenna. But, be aware that there is a trade off with fixed antennas. They do not have the same range as the retractable models. As to the original post, Verizon has T-Mobile beat hands down in Texas. Coverage with Verizon is much better and the rates are comparable.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:47:53 PM EDT
VERIZON!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:48:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:12:07 PM EDT
T-Mobile over much of the Houston area sucks. The signal is all over the place, and for some reason it won't work in many buildings like Best Buy, Target, etc. My GF's Sprint phone has no trouble with those same buildings. In a good area, like where I live on the N. side, the reception is incredible. It's the clearest phone I've ever heard. But that doesn't make up for the crappy service areas. When my contract is up, I'm going to Verizon.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:24:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aggie1: Actually the v120e has a fixed antenna. But, be aware that there is a trade off with fixed antennas. They do not have the same range as the retractable models. As to the original post, Verizon has T-Mobile beat hands down in Texas. Coverage with Verizon is much better and the rates are comparable.
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MY recommendation with regard to this would be to stay away from Motorola. I have had far more negative experiences than positive ones with motorolas, and my Motorola-owning chingoos back in the ROK all too often borrowed MY phone to make calls - despite us having the same provider. I was not surprised when I returned to the US and saw my old man's new phone with such a poorly designed antenna. On, all LG and Samsung antennas, the retractable part is ALL flimsy, the base is solid. The Motorolas seem DESIGNED to break. If the phone's designers displayed such idiocy on such a visible component, what other stupidities regarding the phone's design lay hidden? I have had good luck with both LG and Samsung and actually prefer LG. I bought a Samsung for use here since the LG didn't have a lanyard hole - what's up with that!?
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:25:02 PM EDT
T-Mobile works fine for me. Since my TDMA/Analog phone from AT&T switched to analog everytime I've made a call, and sounded mushy and full of static, I decided to give T-Mobile a try, and damned if the voice quality of GSM isn't even better than landline. We're talking AM radio (AT&T) versus CD (T-Mobile) sound quality here. Anywhere the T-M phone doesn't get coverage, the AT&T phone would have switched to analog roaming anyway, which means I would have to dial the number I want to call, my own number, my PIN, and again the number I want to call. Too much of a hassle, especially if you're trying to use your phone book. The greatest advantage the GSM network has: you can use any damn phone you jolly well please. Just slip your SIM (subscriber identification module, a chip the size of your thumbnail) into it, and you're ready to go. Yes, coverage is spotty outside cities and highways, but that will improve. As for "And what if you have to call 9-1-1?", well, I'm listening to the police scanner and judging by that, if you're not quite at the intersection where they love to bust you for jumping the red lights, or at the stretch of highway that's limited to 35mph, the local cops wouldn't be able to find your ass anyway. But I digress.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 7:51:14 PM EDT
Hmmm...My GF and I both have T-Mobile, and the coverage is pretty damn good-I don't get a signal in only REALLY remote areas in the mountains and I've got a shitty Motorola "peanut" phone. The GF has a Samsung and it gets GREAT coverage. After paying quite a few $1000.00+ MONTHLY phone bills (we own our own business) we now have their 5000 anytime/anywhere minutes a month for $99 each. I can live with that. We roam the NM, AZ, UT and NV areas.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:06:46 PM EDT
Jadams951, If you use it alot just around Houston and the surrounding areas either will work fine. Look at T-mobiles coverage map and see if you need more. They are pretty straight forward about the coverage(it is what it is). If you need more area go with Verizon. I have Three services that I use everyday. Cingular, Verizon, and T-Mobile. Now before someone gets in my face about thinkin I'm trying to be cool for having three phones...its not really on purpose. Verizon-It's a Free "work " phone works great and has the biggest area available(no pitch just the real life stats) Cingular-my first phone service (like 13 or 14 years ago) gotta easy number that no matter how intoxicated a person is they can still call me for a ride!!! T-Mobile-Worked for the largest T-Mobile dealer in the Texas area and got a dealer line for as long as I want($20.00 for 3000 mins). Again both services are good around town the thing you want to look at is where you travel out of town.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:10:45 PM EDT
Ok... Comparison: Verizon: CDMA, mixed between 1900 and 900mhz bands. Phones are tri-mode (CDMA 1.9Ghz, CDMA 900mhz, Analog), with the exception of the Samsung 530 which is single-band (i.e. digital only) T-Mobile: GSM phones (with the much ballyhooed 'SIM card'). All T-mobile phones are single band/digital only. The biggest problem with T-mobile is the one thing that makes them distinct: they use GSM. The problem here is that currently no one else does. This is changing, as SBC (aka Cingular) and AT&T abandon TDMA for GSM. However, when you issue single-band phones on a technology that no one else uses, you get bad coverage. Also American-style GSM is 900mhz, and thus incompatible with 900mhz European version. Finally, the SIM card does NOT allow you to switch phones between carriers, as GSM phones have a feature called 'SIM lock' (similar to the CDMA 'Sublock') which allows the carrier to prevent other carrier's SIM cards from working in their phones (you don't think any cell phone company would actually sell phones that work unmodified on other provider's networks, do you?). All it does is make replacing your phone (or trading phones with another customer) easier... In short, go Verizon... Better phone technology (although less flashy phones), better coverage... And avoid the Samsung 530 color phone, as it is (ew) single band...
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:14:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White:
Originally Posted By CavVet:
Originally Posted By Adam_White: My Verizon service worked the whole time. I occasionally have to do a "reboot" after switching areas (turn the thing off, then on again), but that is a minor issue.
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*18 [send] to update I believe... While you and this topic are here..Any cell phones in the ROK? Civilian or GI or both? GI's get civilian service?
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Cell phones in the ROK are way ahead of where they are here, in terms of price / performance anyway - the smaller country helps. All numbers are nationwide, incoming minutes are free, text messaging is free. There are 3 or 4 major providers, with the 011, 017 are code numbers having the best coverage - they will work even in such remote areas as Warrior Base, Nightmare Range, and Cp. Page. Your 016, 018, and 019 phones aren't quite that good (The way it is set up, each service gets its own area code). Caller ID works for not only from other cell phone providers but also land lines. "Foreigners" generally cannot get subscription service (I suppose you could go through the trouble of getting established with a Korean credit rating if you so desired), but pre-paid phone cards are readily available and cheap. Most generally work for overseas calls, but you can shop around for specific cards that have the best deals for specific countries. USFK contracts cell phone service from SK Telecom (011 and 017). 2ID has its own contract, and all Bn Level XOs, CSMs, and above get them provided to them. Most of us lowly worker bees pay out of pocket.
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And Korea, quite coincidentally, is the one foriegn country that did not go GSM-a-gaga... They use CDMA (why do you think the top CDMA phone companies (Samsung, et al) are Korean???)...
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 8:25:50 PM EDT by Dave_A]
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: Also, I'm not sure if I am allowed to reveal when as it may be proprietary information but Verizon Wireless is coming out with our own Push To Talk phone as well as a camera phone VERY, VERY soon.
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Hmm... Verizon... Camera Phone... Nice, but when are you gonna get the nationwide high-speed-data coverage to support it (you know, kind of like your other major CDMA competitor, the one with the MIB obsession)? Verizon has good coverage, but they're too picky WRT credit (not a problem for me, but I don't use cell phones, I just sell them. My customers, on the other hand...), and the data coverage isn't on par with you-know-who as of yet (which is important when e-mailing pictures between phones (once a camera phone is available), and such)... And then there's that single-band Samsung... At least it's not an LG single-band (Sprint customers with LG 1010s and 'Touchpoint 1100s' (Aka LG SM-510) know what I'm talking about), but past experience has shown that quality takes a dive in single band phones... As for minutes, why do you think T can offer so many?? Because they don't have the coverage that the other carriers maintain... So they try to compete by offering a gazillion minutes...
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 9:15:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A: Finally, the SIM card does NOT allow you to switch phones between carriers, as GSM phones have a feature called 'SIM lock' (similar to the CDMA 'Sublock') which allows the carrier to prevent other carrier's SIM cards from working in their phones (you don't think any cell phone company would actually sell phones that work unmodified on other provider's networks, do you?). All it does is make replacing your phone (or trading phones with another customer) easier...
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T-Mobile unlocks any and every phone locked to them, if you ask them to. Just send an e-mail to SIMUnlock@T-Mobile.com and ask. There are also many sources to purchase unlocked phones and phones that have never been locked. Both brand-new and used.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 9:34:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By Dave_A: Finally, the SIM card does NOT allow you to switch phones between carriers, as GSM phones have a feature called 'SIM lock' (similar to the CDMA 'Sublock') which allows the carrier to prevent other carrier's SIM cards from working in their phones (you don't think any cell phone company would actually sell phones that work unmodified on other provider's networks, do you?). All it does is make replacing your phone (or trading phones with another customer) easier...
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T-Mobile unlocks any and every phone locked to them, if you ask them to. Just send an e-mail to SIMUnlock@T-Mobile.com and ask. There are also many sources to purchase unlocked phones and phones that have never been locked. Both brand-new and used.
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Try pulling that with a Cingular or AT&T GSM phone (the only other national carriers in the US that use GSM, as of now), though... You'll get laughed right out the door... So if T unlocks their phones but no one else does, you still can't use other people's phones on T's network... Also, in many areas T is the only GSM carrier, so SIM locks make no diff there, as the unlocked phones can't be used with the other carriers CDMA and (ugh) TDMA networks... (Yes, you can get unlocked phones from Ebay and many other spots. But this is true for CDMA and TDMA too... And yes, any CDMA phone will work on any carrier's network IF it is not sublocked (they all are, unless you get them from Ebay or some other non-phone-company source), and you know the appropriate SID, etc)....
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 9:52:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A: So if T unlocks their phones but no one else does, you still can't use other people's phones on T's network...
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Check this out: [url]http://search.ebay.de/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&query=tri&cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.de%2Fws%2F&ht=1&from=R10&catref=C3&currdisp=2&itemtimedisp=1&st=2&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&shortcut=4&category0=14675&BasicSearch=[/url]
(Yes, you can get unlocked phones from Ebay
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Ah, I guess you already knew that... ;)
And yes, any CDMA phone will work on any carrier's network IF it is not sublocked (they all are, unless you get them from Ebay or some other non-phone-company source), and you know the appropriate SID, etc)....
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I've never had a CDMA phone, so I can't really comment on those. My main motivation to go back to GSM (having used it in Europe for years) was seeing all those nice phones like the Treo coming out and AT&T never adopting any of them for their TDMA network.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 11:43:53 PM EDT
I got to admit though I really want that t-mobile camera phones. I'm sure I really wouldn't use it all that much but damn it's fun to play with. Maybe I should just wait for verizon to come out with there cam phones like ms magnum was mentioning. I wish she would give an ETA that the little birdies have been saying about this. I hate waiting.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 3:06:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:00:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: We waited to introduce camera phones because we wanted to do it right, as opposed to other carriers that rushed to get it on the air to compete with T Mobile. I think consumers will find a lot of really user-friendly features with our service coming very, very soon....
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Darn it how soon? I want a new phone now but I would like to wait for verizon cause the much better coverage area and also everyone I know that has it says great things about it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:32:05 AM EDT
Verizon Wireless has been talking about PTT service and Camera phones for a while. There is no date close that this will be released. If you look at Verizon's available phones they are weak. Nothing new same ol same ol...BTW the 530 is a DUAL BAND,SINGLE MODE phone. Whats funny is that I am a market manager for a company that starts with "V". I have been in the industry for like 14 years and no longer buy into the corporate poo-poo. Jadams...If you like the camera phone go ahead and get the T-Mobile...I am getting the Nokia 3650 model with the video in the next few days... If I see you at one of the Houston meetings you can check it out...Like I said before I have both and they have their good points and bad.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:15:22 PM EDT
I talked to a manager of a verizon store today and he told me to wait two weeks and that's when the two way radio is coming out. I didn't get to ask anything else because work interrupted. Now I just need to know when the darn cam phones are coming out.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:30:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: We waited to introduce camera phones because we wanted to do it right, as opposed to other carriers that rushed to get it on the air to compete with T Mobile. I think consumers will find a lot of really user-friendly features with our service coming very, very soon....
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Darn it how soon? I want a new phone now but I would like to wait for verizon cause the much better coverage area and also everyone I know that has it says great things about it.
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If you want a camera phone, but better coverage than T-mobile (though not quite Verizon's), go with SprintPCS. If coverage is your imperative, go with Verizon. None better, as of yet. If you couldn't give a rats ass about coverage (since they have very little), but want gobs and gobs of minutes, T-mobile has that...
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:02:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: We waited to introduce camera phones because we wanted to do it right, as opposed to other carriers that rushed to get it on the air to compete with T Mobile. I think consumers will find a lot of really user-friendly features with our service coming very, very soon....
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Darn it how soon? I want a new phone now but I would like to wait for verizon cause the much better coverage area and also everyone I know that has it says great things about it.
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If you want a camera phone, but better coverage than T-mobile (though not quite Verizon's), go with SprintPCS. If coverage is your imperative, go with Verizon. None better, as of yet. If you couldn't give a rats ass about coverage (since they have very little), but want gobs and gobs of minutes, T-mobile has that...
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I've had sprint before...they suck nuts.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:05:33 AM EDT
I had Sprint and switched to T-Mobile. I am very impressed with their service and customer support.. C4
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:12:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:18:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 7:19:45 AM EDT by jadams951]
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum:
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Verizon Wireless has been talking about PTT service and Camera phones for a while. There is no date close that this will be released. Whats funny is that I am a market manager for a company that starts with "V". I have been in the industry for like 14 years and no longer buy into the corporate poo-poo.
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Well, I'm very sorry if everyone's been keeping you out of the loop. I'm a switch tech for a company that starts with a "V" and I've been personally testing the PTT feature for it's imminent release for the last month.
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This is all said in fun but I guess someone should have bought into the corporate poo-poo this time!!!! Hmmmmm...I wonder if the verizon two way will be able to talk with the nextel two way?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:53:45 AM EDT
And just wait until you guys see the N-Gage.....
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:00:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hound: And just wait until you guys see the N-Gage.....
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Has already been posted here. [img]http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/11/05/gfx/nokia_n_gage_01.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:55:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 11:56:17 AM EDT by Tonys68l36]
Again, I say there is no date "close" for it's release. Is next quarter or 4th quarter close to you guys?? Next year first quarter?? What is soon??? Should someone wait for months to get a phone that may be released?? Yeah PTT is testing...it's testing on(almost) everyones system...But when is it coming out??? Is it in the field?? What handset manufaturer is being tested??? AT&T Wireless, Sprint PCS and Verizon Wireless have ALL announced they will be offering or at testing PTT services by the end of this year. Not like PTT is new anymore. I just get bent that The big "V" is content to play follow the leader.
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