Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 6/13/2003 6:26:21 AM EDT
[url=http://kfwb.com/news_national.asp?displayOption=&contentGUID={DCF46A93-6D02-4158-AD13-F0FDCDEB12E3}&groupName=AP%20Top%20National%20Headlines&siteGUID={3B62BF55-4A93-48E6-A45D-6A495DC423AD}]Aviation Birthplace Debate Spurs Spat[/url] Lawmakers From N. Carolina, Ohio Spar Over Which State Is Aviation's True Birthplace WASHINGTON 6.12.03, 4:49p - North Carolina lawmakers say a congressional resolution naming Dayton, Ohio, as the birthplace of aviation is a claim that just doesn't fly. The states have sparred for decades about which is the true birthplace of aviation and now that this year's centennial celebrations for the Wright brothers first flight have started, lawmakers have also gotten into the spat. "The Wright brothers made their first flight at Kitty Hawk. The last time I checked, Kitty Hawk is still in North Carolina, not Ohio," said Rep. Robin Hayes, R-N.C. Hayes and Reps. Howard Coble and Cass Ballenger, both R-N.C., were the only lawmakers to vote against the resolution when it came up before the House. The resolution passed 378-3. "Dayton is a great spot ... but we just couldn't allow (Ohio lawmakers) to rewrite history," Hayes said Thursday. Ohio Rep. Dave Hobson, who represents nearby Springfield, Ohio, shot back: "No one disputes the fact that Kitty Hawk in North Carolina was the site of the first successful controlled, powered flight. ... However, Dayton, Ohio's claim to be the 'birthplace of aviation' is based upon much more than just the first flight." The flight took place Dec. 17, 1903, near Kitty Hawk, but the Wrights designed and built the aircraft at their bicycle shop in their hometown of Dayton and later tested and developed their planes at nearby Huffman Prairie. Stephen Wright, the great-grandnephew of the Wright brothers, said North Carolina was first in flight, but Ohio has every right to call itself the birthplace of aviation. "North Carolina lawmakers speak out of ignorance of history when they try to attribute what the Wright brothers accomplished solely to their state," said Wright, who lives in Dayton. "I hope they get over their insecurity complex." The Senate Judiciary Committee passed the resolution on a voice vote Thursday, but North Carolina Sen. John Edwards, a committee member who is one of nine Democrats vying for the 2004 presidential nomination, missed the vote. The resolution still must be approved by the full Senate. ___ On the Net: Inventing Flight: Dayton 2003 http://www.inventingflight.com/ The Associated Press
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:41:19 AM EDT
it's dead fucking simple. OHIO is where the wrights first tested flight with their gliders. OHIO is where the wrights designed and built their first powered machined. kitty hawk was chosen for its' prevailing winds to provide additional takeoff lift...which was necessary to overcome the weak motor, primitive propeller thrust and low lift wings of the catapult assisted launched airplane. after flying at kitty hawk and then developing more efficient aero engines and refining the design of the plane, the wrights full back in their own back yard...OHIO. they established a field for design and testing outside of columbus, ohio. today, that field is known as wright-patterson afb. DAYTON, OHIO was, and is, the birthplace of aviation and powered flight. as the articles states, "'birthplace of aviation' is based upon much more than just the first flight." years and years of research, teasting and designs and building were required in order to achieve that first flight.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:50:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 7:17:34 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Who gives a rip... In the age of massive government corruption and waste, not to mention a downward spiral toward socialisim, it distrubs me that any effort or time be wasted on such a stupid topic. This is a local JayCees type of thing... Besides, ballonists in France were flying in the 1700s. Perhaps they should modify their claims to improve accuracy. "Birthplace of 'heavier than air' flight" Doesn't sound so grandiose does it?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:53:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: it's dead fucking simple. OHIO is where the wrights first tested flight with their gliders. OHIO is where the wrights designed and built their first powered machined. kitty hawk was chosen for its' prevailing winds to provide additional takeoff lift...which was necessary to overcome the weak motor, primitive propeller thrust and low lift wings of the catapult assisted launched airplane. after flying at kitty hawk and then developing more efficient aero engines and refining the design of the plane, the wrights full back in their own back yard...OHIO. they established a field for design and testing outside of columbus, ohio. today, that field is known as wright-patterson afb. DAYTON, OHIO was, and is, the birthplace of aviation and powered flight. as the articles states, "'birthplace of aviation' is based upon much more than just the first flight." years and years of research, teasting and designs and building were required in order to achieve that first flight.
View Quote
Yeah...what he said! Campybob speaks no truer words than those above. I've been to WP AFB, I have been to the annex there as well. The whole history of the Wright brothers is there, along with many of thier tools and equipment. Lot of neat shit if you are into aviation.(my father is an aircraft mechanic and runs his own business. I grew up around aviation, learned to fly, and all that.) Kitty Hawk was the site of the first flight...not the birth place of flight.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:54:27 AM EDT
Yeah, this kind of petty horseshit is exactly what our elected officials need to be working on. Anyone with even the slightest interest in aviation knows the Wright brothers' story. I can't fathom how this issue came to be argued in the House. Ridiculous.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:04:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: it's dead fucking simple. OHIO is where the wrights first tested flight with their gliders. OHIO is where the wrights designed and built their first powered machined. kitty hawk was chosen for its' prevailing winds to provide additional takeoff lift...which was necessary to overcome the weak motor, primitive propeller thrust and low lift wings of the catapult assisted launched airplane. after flying at kitty hawk and then developing more efficient aero engines and refining the design of the plane, the wrights full back in their own back yard...OHIO. they established a field for design and testing outside of columbus, ohio. today, that field is known as wright-patterson afb. DAYTON, OHIO was, and is, the birthplace of aviation and powered flight. as the articles states, "'birthplace of aviation' is based upon much more than just the first flight." years and years of research, teasting and designs and building were required in order to achieve that first flight.
View Quote
Time to stir up a hornets nest. The props that were used have an efficiency factor as high as most modern commercial props. Orville got it right the first time. on the order of 85-90% efficient The Camber-line airfoils used were quite good for the application. Combined with high AR wings, they were able to acheive low wing loading (to not overload the structure) and reasonably good lift. From the reports of the day, the Wright Flyer was an absolute dream to fly. For its size, the design is extremely agile. Back on topic, its funny we dont have this arguement @ school. We all know the birthplace is Ohio. (BE is a 3rd year Aerospace Engineering Student at the Georgia Institute of Technology)
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:12:33 AM EDT
Oh hell, let Ohio have it. They need something besides 'Drew Carey' and 'WKRP' to be known for.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:30:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 7:50:34 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
in an area vs speed/weight calculation...with that motor and those props it would be nigh on impossible to overload those wings. and open camber wing exerts much more drag and generates less lift that the closed cell wings that came along shortly thereafter. and while the wright's calculations were extraordinarily accurate, their wing-warping control system was quickly outdated by the curtis designs. here is a treastise on the devopment of the wright propellers from 1903-1912. the thrust figures demonstrate very low numbers...not entirely the props' fault, assuredly. none he less, the early props were primitive by comparison to those in use not 10 years later. [url]http://www.wrightexperience.com/indepth/pdfs/props.pdf[/url] of note is the wright's mathmatical pursuit of flight. relying on, then disproving, lillienthal's tables and failing (at first) in their own attempts at the quantification of the numbers involved in the science of aerodynamics had to have been exciting. i am not even the slightest bit shocked that bicycle mechanics would become the first to masyer powered flight.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:18:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: Oh hell, let Ohio have it. They need something besides 'Drew Carey' and 'WKRP' to be known for.
View Quote
[rolleyes] How about "Mother of Presidents"?? Take some time away from the TV bro.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:29:05 AM EDT
Yes, I guess all the "fucking" happend in Dayton, Ohio. but the "birth" took place at Kitty Hawk, NC. Just another case of pathetic yankees trying to rewrite history to make themselves look better. AGAIN. Yes, you can have the title "Birthplace of Aviation". But only if you take the blame for Jerry Springer too! AND give him a museum as well. I mean we'll eventually have to give Jesse one.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:35:00 AM EDT
ohio is the birthplace of avation the plane was design and built in ohio,so that means it was born there' n.c. is the first in flight. i live in n.c but my birthplace is in ohio!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:36:04 AM EDT
I like it when politicians spend time arguing over this kind of stuff, at least they're not trying to figure out how to screw us next. I just went to Nag's Head/Kitty Hawk last week, this being the Centennial and all. Cool place.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:53:43 AM EDT
[b]Just another case of pathetic yankees trying to rewrite history to make themselves look better.[/b] yup...those "pathetic yankees" had to come down there and teach y'all how to fly...after we taught you what the united states was all about. ohioans went to the southern coast for the constant gusts of hot air that abound in that region. remember john glenn...neil armstrong? ohio boys. the only re-writing of history occurs on n.c. license plates. sounds like a case of flight-envy, to me.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:20:00 AM EDT
Calling North Carolina "The birth place of Aviation" makes about as much sense as calling Japan the birth place of nuclear weapons.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:26:22 AM EDT
[b]Calling North Carolina "The birth place of Aviation" makes about as much sense as calling Japan the birth place of nuclear weapons.[/b] bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!! you owe me a monitor, damnit!!!!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:30:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 9:35:05 AM EDT by Max_Mike]
DAYTON, OHIO was, and is, the birthplace of aviation and powered flight.
View Quote
BULLSH*T OK using this particular brand of illogic if a baby is conceived in Denver and then born in Nashville 9 months later the birthplace on the birth certificate should be Denver. North Carolina without a doubt! Ohio could be the cradle or wedding bed but NC is the birthplace.
Calling North Carolina "The birth place of Aviation" makes about as much sense as calling Japan the birth place of nuclear weapons.
View Quote
Another historical nitwit, the atomic bomb was first tested in the US. But this historical rewrite is understandable… If you had ever been to Ohio you know why they are so insecure.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:35:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: Another historical nitwit the atomic bomb was first tested in the US.
View Quote
Every part of the Wright Flyer was "tested" in Dayton before they took it to North Carolina.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:43:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 9:51:07 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
[b]If you had ever been to Ohio you know why they are so insecure.[/b] yeah...knowing that only kentucky stands between us and tenn. is enough to make ANYONE insecure!!! so...is this year's tenn. license plate going to bear the likeness of jack daniels or elvis? just kidding! everyone knows ohio is...the gateway to indiana!!!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:47:36 AM EDT
Y'all can have the title "Birthplace of avation". Maybe it will compensate for being stuck in such a dump. I hope I don't incure the wrath of the Ohio folks, but personally I hate your state. I don't exactly like Indiana, but at least we have CCW. When my wife and I are driving across state on I-70 I try and tell her to hold it until we get to West Virginia, I don't even want to piss in your state. No offense fellas...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:55:37 AM EDT
indiana?? a state known for...popcorn!!!! lol! no bulletfest for you!! heheh! if you think ohio is anti-gun (well, our communist republican governor is! grrr!), come to bulletfest and be proved WRONG!!!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:38:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 7:01:20 AM EDT by Max_Mike]
Every part of the Wright Flyer was "tested" in Dayton before they took it to North Carolina.
View Quote
Sorry but at best that makes Ohio the birthplace of testing airplane parts.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:46:32 AM EDT
See, we should be the ones bitching back and forth about this. This is all fun and games to me. I honestly could care less about the matter. The fact the we have the NC, OH, and US houses taking time to do the exact same thing we are doing on this board is friggin ludicris. This is immaterial in the grand scheme of things. And never bring up the Civil War to a North Carolinian cuz we will school your ass. We are the only state that has a right to call it the War of Northern Agression. We were invaded without provocation prior to a vote of secession. We radified the Emancipation Proclamation while still a part of the Confederacy, and have lost more of our sons per capita then any other state in EVERY conflict including and since. So don't tell me you taught us didly. If ya'll knew a damn thing about what a Union was you wouldn't have conscripted blacks and imigrants at bayonet point, and you wouldn't have left an army of occupation in the South longer than you did in Japan or Germany after WWII. You sir may kiss my grits. That war was faught for the economic domination of the agricultural producing capabilities of the South by the North. If not, why was reconstruction so damn long? And why was nothing reconstructed, but converted to further the economic strangle hold the North had over the South? Where was the Great Depression felt the hardest in the North or the South? Whoops, hijack over. Touchy subject. Ohio wins birthplace. It flew here first though damnit.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:52:37 AM EDT
A little shop (still standing) just west of downtown Dayton is where they built all their stuff. A little field (near Huffman Damn, off Rt.4 near WPAFB golf course) is where they did all the first flights. Some place full of [s]hot air[/s] a little wind is where they went for long flight times. IF a fetus is a person, NC is a Kindergardener.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:16:52 AM EDT
NC was an airfield. That's all. Credit the French? Come on, we're talking about "controlled" flight; not riding in a bag of hot air.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:27:40 AM EDT
What if the Wrights are proven to be not the first powered flight? This is all moot. Where? Lukenbach Texas. By whom? There's even a local legend: Jacob Brodbeck is documented to have flown a heavier-than-air craft, powered by clock-like springs rather than an internal combustion engine, decades before the Wright Brothers. http://www.canoe.ca/TravelUSA/lukenbach_0001.html
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:45:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 11:49:35 AM EDT by redray]
[img]http://www.usmint.gov/images/mint_programs/50sq_program/states/OH_winner.gif[/img][img]http://www.usmint.gov/images/mint_programs/50sq_program/states/NC_winner.gif[/img] [b]TIME FOR A COIN TOSS!!![/B]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:48:40 AM EDT
Interesting link Keith. I got a kick out of the drunk armadillo...lol. Here's a little background on "who flew first". Various Claims to First Flight 1884 -- Alexander Feodorovich Mozhaiski, Russian Empire: Mozhaiski may have had some success getting his large machine into a glide from a downhill ramp, but pre-Soviet evidence suggests it quickly tipped over on one wing. Judging from the design of the plane and its similarity to others being experimented with in England at the time, it's unlikely he was ever able to take off from a flat surface. Under Stalin's reign, Mozhaiski was put forward as the inventor of the airplane. 1890, October 9 -- Clement Ader, France: There is little doubt that Ader was the first person to get a manned, powered craft off level ground. He was also the most successful inventor to have worked with a steam engine. In private testing at an estate in Paris, his Eole rose from a level field and landed some 50 meters away. Most English-speaking historians do not consider this a flight because (1) the plane returned to the ground as soon as it had lost momentum, technically a "hop," (2) the plane had no effective provision to keep itself in the air (it's steering was too slow to adjust), and (3) this performance was never repeated, either with Eole or with the larger Avion III that Ader built and tested under contract with the French military. 1903, November -- Karl Jatho, Germany: From August through November of 1903, Jatho made progressively longer hops in a pusher triplane, then biplane, at Vahrenwalder Heide outside of Hanover. His longest, however, was only 60 meters at 3-4 meters altitude. Jatho eventually gave up, noting "in spite of many efforts, cannot make longer or higher flights. Motor weak." [Gibbs-Smith, C. H. The Aeroplane: An Historical Survey, pp. 319-320] With a later machine, Jatho would make successful flights around 1909. 1903, December 17 -- Orville & Wilbur Wright, United States: At Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, the Wrights made four flights ranging from 12 to 59 seconds in a powerful headwind. That same wind picked up the idle machine and wrecked it after the fourth flight. Even pro-Wright historians acknowledge this original Flyer, a pusher biplane (two wings, rear propellers) with its elevator in front, was a lucky combination. On their next revision, in fact, they adjusted their airfoils in the wrong direction and failed to do much of anything. However, they benefitted from an international lull in experimentation, probably caused by the very public failures of two government-funded inventors -- Ader in France, and Samuel Pierpont Langley in the U.S. By the summer of 1905, the Wrights were testing the world's first practical flying machine. Using a catapult to accelerate their takeoffs, they flew almost 25 miles at a stretch by the end of the year. Because the Wrights didn't fit their machine with wheels and because they later used an assisted takeoff, adherents of the following inventors say they don't deserve to be called the first men to fly. 1906, August -- Trajan Vuia, Romania: Vuia built the first full-sized tractor monoplane (one wing, propeller in front) of modern proportions. The machine was immediately influential. Unfortunately, Vuia's plane used a very weak carbonic acid engine, and he only managed a 24-meter hop. Some sources say even that short distance required a downhill taxi to muster the necessary speed. Vuia abandoned his experiments the next spring. Romanians recognize Vuia as the first man to fly. 1906, September 12 -- Jacob Christian Ellehammer, Denmark: This motorcycle manufacturer managed to procure a private island on which to test his new plane designs. Unfortunately, the island of Lindholm was too small for a straight runway, so Ellehammer had to test his tractor biplane on a circular track while tethered to a pole at the center. With his acceleration therefore enhanced, and without the need to steer, Ellehammer took off for 42 meters. He wouldn't make a sustained, untethered flight until early in 1908, but some Danes credit Ellehammer with first flight. 1906, November 12 -- Alberto Santos-Dumont, Brazil: Santos-Dumont was already a world-famous pilot of dirigibles when he flew his 14-bis more than 220 meters. His celebrity made the news of his flight easy to swallow, and the international press declared him the first man to fly. Even the New York Herald, which had already published stories about the Wrights, declared Santos-Dumont's the "first important demonstration" of flight. The pusher biplane canard (elevator & rudder in front) never made more than a short hop after that, but Santos-Dumont developed a successful tractor monoplane three years later. Most of Latin America still recognizes Santos-Dumont as the inventor of the airplane.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:21:43 PM EDT
One of these years, I personally would like to visit the flight museum at Wright-Patterson AFB, Akron, OH. My sister-in-law was there for some kind of seminar, and she recommends that I visit it.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:22:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 1:16:27 PM EDT by Keith_J]
Bah! All latecomers to aviation. Jacob Brodbeck flew his aircraft in 1868 near Lukenbach, Texas. Drawings for his craft were stolen and therefore, his rightful claim was denied. But since we are getting down to picking gnat poop out of pepper, forget NC an OH, its TEXAS!!! [url]http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/BB/fbr63.html[/url] There are conflicting accounts of what happened next. One says that Brodbeck made his first flight in a field about three miles east of Luckenbach on September 20, 1865. His airship, which featured an enclosed space for the "aeronaut," a water propeller in case of accidental landings on water, a compass, and a barometer, and for which Brodbeck had predicted speeds between 30 and 100 miles per hour, was said to have risen twelve feet in the air and traveled about 100 feet before the springs unwound completely and the machine crashed to the ground. Another account, however, says that the initial flight took place in San Pedro Park, San Antonio, where a bust of Brodbeck was later placed. Yet another account reports that the flight took place in 1868, not 1865. All the accounts agree, however, that Brodbeck's airship was destroyed by its abrupt landing, although the inventor escaped serious injury. After this setback, his investors refused to put up the money for a second attempt, so he embarked on a fund-raising tour of the United States. His papers were stolen in Michigan, however, and he failed to persuade his audiences to invest in his scheme. Brodbeck returned to Texas and lived on a ranch near Luckenbach until his death, on January 8, 1910, six years after the Wright brothers' first flight at Kitty Hawk. No drawings or blueprints of Brodbeck's craft have survived, and his aviation achievements remain shrouded in doubt. He was buried on his farm near Luckenbach. How many of you AR's out there went through the Air Force? Basic training at Lackland. Officer? Then you went to Randolph.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:02:16 PM EDT
All y'all are wrong. Wilber Wright was born in Indiana. We all know Wilbur was the brains of the two. So Wilbur was the father of avation. He was born in Indiana, therefor, Indiana is the true "birthplace" of avation (and they've done nothing worth while since)...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:16:16 PM EDT
Ohio has all ready been able to steal the Rock-N-Roll Hall of Fame. Cleveland what a laugh. And the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which belongs in Texas. Now they want to be the birthplace of flight, what is next… they are going to claim the first man on the moon really landed in Chilliothe. Ohio should just admit to its real place in the world… the septic tank for Pittsburgh.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:18:54 PM EDT
"A little shop (still standing) just west of downtown Dayton is where they built all their stuff."
View Quote
Actually the Wright Cycle Shop was sold 40 or 50 years ago and is in Michigan at The Greenfield Village. IIRC...the real hero of the Wright Bros. story was their mechanic who built an engine that was light but, still powerful enough to get the plane off the ground.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 2:00:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: they established a field for design and testing outside of columbus, ohio. today, that field is known as wright-patterson afb.
View Quote
Isn't W-P AFB near Dayton?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 2:05:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scottman:
Originally Posted By Silence: Oh hell, let Ohio have it. They need something besides 'Drew Carey' and 'WKRP' to be known for.
View Quote
[rolleyes] How about "Mother of Presidents"?? Take some time away from the TV bro.
View Quote
Like anyone outside of OH knows or cares about your presidents.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:23:39 AM EDT
First time I saw one of those North Carolina plates I just about puked.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:03:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 7:13:28 AM EDT by Max_Mike]
How about "Mother of Presidents"??
View Quote
Now they are stealing from Virginia. Virginia is nicknamed the "Mother of Presidents" Four of the first five presidents were born in Virginia. With grand total of eight Presidents.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:15:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
How about "Mother of Presidents"??
View Quote
Now they are stealing from Virginia. Virginia is nicknamed the "Mother of Presidents" Four of the first five presidents were born in Virginia. With grand total of eight Presidents.
View Quote
Actually, you're right. We're pulling a North Carolina on this one. 7 were born and raised in Ohio and an 8th was born in Virginia but was raised and made his home in Ohio.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 1:09:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: it's dead fucking simple. OHIO is where the wrights first tested flight with their gliders. OHIO is where the wrights designed and built their first powered machined. kitty hawk was chosen for its' prevailing winds to provide additional takeoff lift...which was necessary to overcome the weak motor, primitive propeller thrust and low lift wings of the catapult assisted launched airplane. after flying at kitty hawk and then developing more efficient aero engines and refining the design of the plane, the wrights full back in their own back yard...OHIO. they established a field for design and testing outside of columbus, ohio. today, that field is known as wright-patterson afb. DAYTON, OHIO was, and is, the birthplace of aviation and powered flight. as the articles states, "'birthplace of aviation' is based upon much more than just the first flight." years and years of research, teasting and designs and building were required in order to achieve that first flight.
View Quote
Right on! Ohio still sucks, though. [;)] Otherwise, why were Wilber and Orville trying to fly the fuck out of there so fast?
Top Top