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Posted: 6/13/2003 4:14:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:29:41 AM EDT
Why do I carry a .45? Because they don't make a .46
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:35:47 AM EDT
[b]...but wanted to know why I was carrying a cocked and locked 45.[/b] because john browning wanted it that way!!!
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:27:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:43:08 AM EDT
The best thing about havine a permit to carry concealed is that it allows you to carry your firearm just about any way that you want to in you own vech. The sad thing about getting caught with a concealed weapon is that a public servant makes for a very good wittness, and there is nooooo wayyyyyy out of it. I wish that we could all be like VT and all people have the right to concealed weapons unless you can not own them. I wonder what their crime rate are compared to LA? Rant off- Badredfish [devil]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:53:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:09:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By meltdown: I wonder why he called in the serial #. Just to see if it was on a stolen list ? ...
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Probably – that’s SOP in some agencies (though legally perhaps a bit “iffy”).
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:13:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:40:28 AM EDT
When I lived in a free state (PA although with Rendell I don't know how much longer) a Taurus loaded with a Black Talon and my CCW permit got me out of a late night 4 am 70mph in a 50mph zone. The officer was so concerned about the gun he let me go with a warning. He asked me why the loaded gun. I said because I live by section 8 housing.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:53:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: [b]...but wanted to know why I was carrying a cocked and locked 45.[/b] because john browning wanted it that way!!!
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... Bingo! [hail2]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:58:52 AM EDT
Here's a answer... "Well gee officer, if I was a cop they'd only trust me with a DAO. But since I actually SHOOT mine more than twice a year, I get to carry what I want."
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:01:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:44:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Motor_City_Tactical: Here's a answer... "Well gee officer, if I was a cop they'd only trust me with a DAO. But since I actually SHOOT mine more than twice a year, I get to carry what I want."
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Truth spoken
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:57:53 PM EDT
I'm no lawyer, but that's mighty close to an illegal search, IMHO.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:09:01 PM EDT
He didnt search his vehicle, and Meltdown offered that he was carrying. Nothing illegal happened there.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:12:38 PM EDT
Well occifer it doesnt do to much if I have to wait to cock and lock it while the bad guy is shooting at me. Excuse me mr. bad guy.....dont shoot yet...i still have to cock and lock this bad boy. just give'me a sec.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:17:43 PM EDT
Let us not forget what the 4th affords us.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:27:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: He didnt search his vehicle, and Meltdown offered that he was carrying. Nothing illegal happened there.
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Why run the SN on the weapon? Did he have any reason to believe that Melt was in possession of a stolen weapon? He was fishing.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:16:47 PM EDT
Article the sixth [Amendment IV] The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:32:33 PM EDT
Running a gun serial number is not an illegal search.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:55:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By meltdown: oops. $91 ticket last night. The highway patrolman asked me to get out of my car and have a seat in his. So I told him that I had a permit to carry a concealed pistol. He was pretty cool about it but wanted to know why I was carrying a cocked and locked 45. I wanted to say "cuz it goes bang" but said I was on my way back from the range. He had me put my hands on top of the car, he removed the piece, (with some difficulty - I love a tight fitting holster) checked the serial number, laid it on my seat and then we went back to his car. He called me and the serial number in. Everything came back cool, he knocked the speed down to 60 so it cost $91. Dunno why he was so suprised I had a pistol since there were used targets and empty brass strewn throughout my Jeep.
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Why were you carrying cocked and locked? "Ain't that how the gun is designed to be carried?"
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:41:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Running a gun serial number is not an illegal search.
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Lumpy - You dismiss this out of hand. Are you an attorney? Do you have specific knowledge in this matter? I contend that it's completely reasonable, even expected, for a person with a concealed-carry permit to have a weapon on their person. Furthermore, it's reasonable for the police officer to disarm that person from a safety standpoint. However, unless the officer had reasonable suspicion to believe that the weapon was contraband, which he [i]may[/i] have had (but I saw nothing in the original story to suspect that), I feel that running the SN was an unreasonable search.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:03:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Motor_City_Tactical: Here's a answer... "Well gee officer, if I was a cop they'd only trust me with a DAO. But since I actually SHOOT mine more than twice a year, I get to carry what I want."
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[size=6][red][b]That's gonna leave a mark, LOL[/b][/red][/size=6]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:13:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 8:15:25 AM EDT by BigJ491]
Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Running a gun serial number is not an illegal search.
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Lumpy - You dismiss this out of hand. Are you an attorney? Do you have specific knowledge in this matter? I contend that it's completely reasonable, even expected, for a person with a concealed-carry permit to have a weapon on their person. Furthermore, it's reasonable for the police officer to disarm that person from a safety standpoint. However, unless the officer had reasonable suspicion to believe that the weapon was contraband, which he [i]may[/i] have had (but I saw nothing in the original story to suspect that), I feel that running the SN was an unreasonable search.
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So you probably think that also checking the license and registration in their computers is unreasonable too? I mean, he was only speading, it's not like the officer had reason to believe the car was stolen. The officer checked the SN, more than likely, to Cover His Own Ass. No officer wants to find out later that he fucked up a stop by not checking everything out and letting a criminal go. Every law enforcement official is well w/ in his right to verify any information you present to be true.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:16:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 8:18:13 AM EDT by NoVaGator]
Originally Posted By BigJ491:
Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Running a gun serial number is not an illegal search.
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Lumpy - You dismiss this out of hand. Are you an attorney? Do you have specific knowledge in this matter? I contend that it's completely reasonable, even expected, for a person with a concealed-carry permit to have a weapon on their person. Furthermore, it's reasonable for the police officer to disarm that person from a safety standpoint. However, unless the officer had reasonable suspicion to believe that the weapon was contraband, which he [i]may[/i] have had (but I saw nothing in the original story to suspect that), I feel that running the SN was an unreasonable search.
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So you probably think that also checking the license and registration in their computers is unreasonable too? I mean, he was only speading, it's not like the officer had reason to believe the car was stolen. The officer checked the SN, more than likely, to Cover His Own Ass. No officer wants to find out later that he fucked up a stop by not checking everything out and letting a criminal go. Every law enforcement official is well w/ in his right to verify any information you present to be true.
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Totally unrelated. Should the officer be able to check and see if he has any outstanding child support payments?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:36:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NoVaGator: I contend that it's completely reasonable, even expected, for a person with a concealed-carry permit to have a weapon on their person. Furthermore, it's reasonable for the police officer to disarm that person from a safety standpoint. However, unless the officer had reasonable suspicion to believe that the weapon was contraband, which he [i]may[/i] have had (but I saw nothing in the original story to suspect that), I feel that running the SN was an unreasonable search.
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I think novogator has a point. I can see running the car/license, that's for ID purposes. Unless you live in a state where ccw is tied to a registered weapon, the cop was fishing, and has NO reason to run the handgun serial ###'s..
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:03:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:36:15 PM EDT
Who were you 69ing in a 45 what? I prefer the 45 packard. It has the biggest back seat. Oh, wait a minute, I misunderstood the heading. Sorry. Oh yeah, carrying aweapon while speeding. I wonder if that counts as carrying a concealed weapon during the commission of a crime, or armed speeding?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:39:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By meltdown: I think running the serial #'s is kind of SOP around here. One night a couple of us were shooting at a gravel pit at night on private property where we thought we were out of city limits. We had the owner's permission to be on that property After about a hundred rounds about ten squad cars and fifteen officers showed up. Felony stop style, they put us on the ground, cuffed us, frisked us and searched the vehicle (no they didn't ask). The officer that frisked me and removed my .45 said "You have to tell us you are carrying a concealed weapon." I said, as I stood with my hands cuffed behind my back, "I still have a .380 in my inside coat pocket." I wasn't a smartass about it but I could tell he was pissed that he missed it. They ran the serial numbers on all the weapons we had, and an AR came back under my cousin's name. They asked me for his phone number and called him to ask if I had his permission to use his rifle. He said, "Of course". Then they said the area we were in was recently annexed by the city limits and not to shoot here again. You are free to go.
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sounds like grad A asshole JBT behavior to me how different would it have gone if one or two had driven up, walked up and talked to you? [rolleyes] [img]home.wi.rr.com/antigov/dunkin1.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:57:26 PM EDT
Exactly what was the officer searching?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:02:55 PM EDT
Search doesn't just me search in the physical sense. In Meltdowns example, I can see why running the SNs was appropriate - the weapons were the whole reason the cops were there. Not the case when you get pulled over for speeding. Courts have found that pulling someone over for speeding is probable cause for exactly nothing.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:09:25 PM EDT
[/quote] Totally unrelated. Should the officer be able to check and see if he has any outstanding child support payments? [/quote] The officer does not have to. Outstanding child support info is tied to the drivers license in many states. In Texas you get arrested for it. As for running the SN on the weapon, that is good procedure. If he had been standing with a television set in his arms the officer would have run that SN as well. Just as he ran the car for stolen. That's how you find stolen stuff. BTW: it's not a search.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:10:13 PM EDT
I have to side with the officer here; the search is seeing what is there; that was dealt with when he announced the weapon. It's merely SOP to run any tag, license, or serial when contacting cars or guns. No biggie; it's the *looking for* guns that is the search.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:21:30 PM EDT
It's definetly a search, that's not the issue. The question is if it was a reasonable search.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:22:40 PM EDT
Sir, it is none of your concern of why I carry a certain type of pistol. Here is my drivers licens and permit. Now issue me the speeding citation and I will be on my way.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:32:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 6:35:16 PM EDT by Crimefighter]
Let me say this before I speak on the topic.I guess our laws in Louisiana are a wee bit different than in other states.And as a cop,I see myself as one of the "good guys", not a JBT.I try to go out of my way to be civil to people, be within the boundaries of the law, and not expect different treatment simply because of my job.So, to disregard all of the stop and get to the issue of the gun: I can see the officer calling the number in for no other reason than to check to see if it's stolen.The same way he may have ran your tags or checked to see if you were wanted locally.I don't do these things out of spite or any particular meanness(sp?), but rather than to do the things these checks are meant to do.It is absolutely UNBELIEVABLE the people who are wanted, or have stolen property.I wasn't there at the stop,so I dunno.I do routine checks like these to put my conscience at ease so when I let you drive off,I know that I haven't let someone go who has a stolen gun or stolen car,or a guy who is wanted for some felonious crime. As a policeman, if I stop someone for whatever the reason, and don't check to see if the gun he has is stolen and it is,it belongs to you ,and has some sentimental value to it(just being a gun and being mine makes it sentimental enough for me.I love my guns)wouldn't you be even more angry that we didn't recover your property when we had the chance rather than 5 years down the road after the number has been removed,been used in a robbery,stays in evidence for a number of years,and then is destroyed?I know about the feelings of some of the people in the ARF.com community towards the police and hope that you can see that I am not a JBT,nor will I come for your guns when ordered to(guess I'll do something else for a living or exercise discretion for that particular law and do nothing),but some of the civilians should look from the other side of the fence to understand what the good blue suits do.Alot of the problem is we don't know you and you don't know us,so how are we to know that you are Joe Blow coming from the range,or Jeffery Dahmer looking for his noon meal. It doesn't sound like this guy had this in mind,but if I ask 'why' about a certain caliber or model,I'm more intrigued on the reason they chose that caliber or model to have a good ole gun discussion rather than why the carry it in the manner they do.As far as 'cocked and locked' I agree with CAMPYBOB, if Browning didn't want it that way,he wouldn't have designed it that way. Sorry if I hi-jacked anything. Crimefighter
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:19:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 8:22:49 PM EDT by brasspile]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:28:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NoVaGator: It's definetly a search, that's not the issue. The question is if it was a reasonable search.
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Maybe you didn't catch what I said before:
Every law enforcement official is well w/ in his right to verify any information you present to be true.
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I whole heardetly agree w/ Ohio on this one.
I have to side with the officer here; the search is seeing what is there; that was dealt with when he announced the weapon. It's merely SOP to run any tag, license, or serial when contacting cars or guns. No biggie; it's the *looking for* guns that is the search.
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He's not going through bank statements or anything like that, He's merely verifying that the gun being carried belongs to the carrier.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:56:34 PM EDT
I love the way cops act like they are doing you a big favor by knocking your speed down a little. Like a big benevolent dicktator. It eases their conscience. "Thank you Mr. Occifer, das mighty white of you" "Ii'ss a be real careful here on out" All speed limits should be at least 10 mph faster. It's taxation people. Pure and simple.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:01:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:07:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:29:49 AM EDT
"You have to tell us you are carrying a concealed weapon."
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If this isnt true for your state, why would you even bring it up? Are you normally frisked for a traffic stop? If he asked me to put my hands on the roof, or specificly asked me, I'd tell him, otherwise I'd keep quiet. I have sat in a couple of police cars with my pistol on and never said a word and never had any trouble. They dont ask here (so far) unless you give them a reason. If they dont ask, I dont offer.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:41:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:47:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:52:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 8:50:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By meltdown:
Originally Posted By AK103K:
"You have to tell us you are carrying a concealed weapon."
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If this isnt true for your state, why would you even bring it up? If they dont ask, I dont offer.
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Although a LEO has told me I have to volunteer the info, from reading the state laws, I don't think I have to declare it. But cops don't like surprises so if I have to get out of my car, I'll tell them I am armed.
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It all varies by state, you are correct about SD law stating that you don't have to inform a LEO when you are carrying. Use your descretion next time now that you know they are going to run the serial number.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:47:00 PM EDT
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