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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:35:37 PM EDT
Today was the first day of my new job. In my previous job I always carried a Kel-Tec P-32 in my pants pocket. I had wear a shirt and tie and the Kel-Tec was the only weapon I could easily conceal on a daily basis. Both jobs are in a low risk envrionment but I like to carry anyway. You never know when you might need it, and I don't really feel like myself when I don't have a firearm on my person.[;)] Anyway, while flipping through the Employee Manual for the new job, I notice that possesion of firearms at work is not allowed and could result in immediate termination. Needless to say, I was very disappointed. The owner hunts and doesn't really seem the type to be an anti. l don't know if this restriction is due to insurance reasons or liability concerns, but it does suck. Opionions? Suggestions? Experiences?
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:40:24 PM EDT
Sorry no suggestions, you will just have to weigh the risk being fired over the possibility of needing your weapon. My first job required that I carry every day, god I miss that.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:45:21 PM EDT
Concealed carry means concealed. If there were a situation where the pistol would need to be involved, losing my job would be somewhere lower on the list than the cleanliness of my shorts.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:47:35 PM EDT
How big an operation is it? The human resources policy at work here was lifted in whole from another subidiary. You might ask the owner about that clause. It might have been part of a legally defensible guidlines package they adopted. Sounds like a good coffee cup conversation topic. Here, guns at work is about the only offence that does not end in a possible termination. I have a Mosin Nagant M44 in pieces on the workbench, been there almost a week.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:16:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pogo: How big an operation is it? The human resources policy at work here was lifted in whole from another subidiary. You might ask the owner about that clause. It might have been part of a legally defensible guidlines package they adopted.
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The whole thing sounds like it was ripped right out of some corporate text book. It is a small operation. Around 20 employees.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:34:42 PM EDT
Definately talk to the owner about it. If he is the sort you think he is, he might OK it. If he says no, you have probably earned his respect. Either way, you win.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:44:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By darealickt: Definately talk to the owner about it. If he is the sort you think he is, he might OK it. If he says no, you have probably earned his respect. Either way, you win.
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More than likely he will say no. If you ask him, whether he says yes or no, you're sending up a red flag, and you will always be known as the "gun guy" with all the connotations that has in today's corporate environment. I wouldn't bring it up at all, ever, not to him, nor anyone at your job. Somebody might inadvertently spill the beans. If it's concealed, how is he going to know? And if the gun comes out, it will be in a situation where you need it REALLY badly. Is the job more important than your life? Jobs can always be found. Lives? No. One is all you get.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:50:11 PM EDT
Just because the owner is a hunter does not necessarily mean he is pro-gun. I have been told by hunters before that their hunting rifle/shotgun is fine but they see no need for concealed carry or ARs. Not all are that way, but some are.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:59:48 PM EDT
that's the truth, i was buying some .223 ammo at wally world the other night and the cashier guy kinda rolled his eyes and was like, "what is this for?" i said "my AR" he did this heavy sigh thing and said "i hunt with a shotgun" so i promptly asked for 5 more boxes [:D]
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 8:26:30 PM EDT
I work at a credit union, we have a no gun policy, not even in our vehicles. I have yet to follow those rules. I know it doens't matter because nobody knows they are there. Our "security/fraud/all other things evil" supervisor told us how SHE just got her CCW...most gun rules stuff I think all came out of the same HR policy book and is there for lawsuits...
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 8:37:11 PM EDT
Don't ask, don't tell. Rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. Those are the only cliches I feel like typing, but I think they're enough.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 8:48:09 PM EDT
Depends on the job and risk factors. Personally, I have more chance of losing a great job and damaging my reputation in my industry by getting caught with a pistol than finding myself in a situation where I actually need a gun. I'm more likely to have it fall out of my pants in the john while the VP is in the next stall than fending off a rouge postal worker. Dispite the news sensationalism, the likelyhood of a random office shooting spree being a danger is about as close to zero as you can get. But the likelyhood of me getting caught doing something I ought not every single day for the next 1000 days is pretty damn high. Now your commute to work is another story. Safe here, but maybe not where you are. But on a related FYI, my personal tests show that a 700 pg phonebook will reliably stop a 9mm FMJ.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:27:15 PM EDT
My company has a big sign on the gate that says NO FIRE ARMS. Stupid people can't even spell it.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:44:58 PM EDT
I say ask your boss. Who knows, he might say yes. If not, then go with the hear no evil, see no evil game plan.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:38:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Just because the owner is a hunter does not necessarily mean he is pro-gun. I have been told by hunters before that their hunting rifle/shotgun is fine but they see no need for concealed carry or ARs. Not all are that way, but some are.
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Yeah, but in rural KY, there are not many of those elitist, anti-gun hunters. I always keep at least 2 handguns and sometimes a rifle in my car. The laws in my state allow me to have them secured in my car almost anywhere.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:29:06 AM EDT
We have the same policy here... Of course the parking lot is full of vehicles with handguns in holsters under the seat, waiting for the owner to come out and strap on. I don't see how the policy will affect anything, as anyone who's REALLY going to shoot up his office won't do it with his concealed weapon... he'll just walk in the front door and do it. Of course, the downside to this policy is that no-one will be able to stop the shooter till he reloads... As they say, "the worst part of office shooting sprees is the awkward silence while you reload". [;)] Alex
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:11:40 AM EDT
Its all about liability. I am a business owner, so I know. If it discharges and injures or kills a coworker, he gets sued. Along with you, Kel-Tec, the ammo manufacturer, etc... Who has the most to lose from that lawsuit? Probably him and you. He has the liability insurance, so the lawyers see $$$ and zero in on him. This does not mean he is an anti. It just means he is covering his ass and the means to feed his family. You should respect that. It is his business and his property. Does VA require a CCW? If so, you might discuss with him about changing the policy to state that only CCW holders may carry. Another way of looking at it: If It is in the policy that they are not allowed, he should be covered. If you then carry on the job and he doesn't know about it, he should be covered in case of an accident. You just have to be very careful. As I'm sure you are anyway.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:16:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Depends on the job and risk factors. Personally, I have more chance of losing a great job and damaging my reputation in my industry by getting caught with a pistol than finding myself in a situation where I actually need a gun. I'm more likely to have it fall out of my pants in the john while the VP is in the next stall than fending off a rouge postal worker. Dispite the news sensationalism, the likelyhood of a random office shooting spree being a danger is about as close to zero as you can get. But the likelyhood of me getting caught doing something I ought not every single day for the next 1000 days is pretty damn high.
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Huh.... I'm known in my industry as one of the 'gun guys'...but there are a lot of gun guys in the AV field, for some reason.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:30:10 AM EDT
story time. my in-laws have 3 "adopted" grandchildren. they took over for their real grandparents, mr. and mrs. walter rossler. maybe you've heard of them? pretty famous now, seeing as how both of them, their secretary, and two other employees of theirs were gunned down in their office by an irate former employee who then turned the gun on himself. only thing that saved the kids mother is that she was holding the oldest, which was then an infant, when the employee came into the office where she was hiding. it was after that, that he turned around, went outside, and shot himself. their field? refinery inspections. not a high risk job would you think?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:21:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: Don't ask, don't tell.
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Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:36:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexRdnec: story time. my in-laws have 3 "adopted" grandchildren. they took over for their real grandparents, mr. and mrs. walter rossler. maybe you've heard of them? pretty famous now, seeing as how both of them, their secretary, and two other employees of theirs were gunned down in their office by an irate former employee who then turned the gun on himself. only thing that saved the kids mother is that she was holding the oldest, which was then an infant, when the employee came into the office where she was hiding. it was after that, that he turned around, went outside, and shot himself. their field? refinery inspections. not a high risk job would you think?
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thanks for the wake-up call...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:46:51 AM EDT
Our company (similarly sized) has the same policy. I'm fairly certain that it came from our corporate counsel, probably as a liability reduction task. Nearly everyone in the company knows that I have guns. And I'm not the only one, there are a few who are just as bad, or "worse", than me. I don't usually carry to work because I'm about 10 minutes from my house and I usually go point A to point B. There are times when I will carry, usually because I have something I need to do at lunch/after work that will take me out of my Point A/B routine. Each time I carry, I weigh the risk. The key thing is: I'm not going to cause problems if noone knows. Somedays, I'll bring my GunVault with me, put the gun in the Vault and the Vault in a locked drawer. That way I can move around the company without concern. Unless you are on a first name basis with your boss, I'd recommend against approaching him. And, he may not even be the one to give you a waiver on the policy. It may be a blanket enforcement for insurance that has to be in effect for all employees. Weigh the risk, carry discretely if you must. Leave it at home if you need to. Ultimately the choice is yours and you have to ask yourself, in the final calculation, what is more important: carrying or losing your job if discovered. For me, it's a daily "weigh in" on the mental scales.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:49:21 AM EDT
can always get another job,,cant get another life..we have the same policy at my work,,but there are occasions, i DO have to goto hi-risk parts of town..ill be damned if i get outa my van with out sumthing on me..there are ppl in this world that have NOTHING to lose, so they dont care,,where as i have everything to lose and ill put up a fight best i can..OH BTW, life is hi-risk, dont be scared to enjoy it,,but watch your back.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 11:57:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 12:01:40 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:07:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 12:08:30 PM EDT by TexRdnec]
Major Workplace Shootings Feb. 5, 2001 (AP) (AP) Below is a list of the worst workplace shootings over the past 10 years that preceded Monday's shooting at a Navistar engine plant in Melrose Park, Ill.: Dec. 26, 2000: Seven people are shot to death at a Wakefield, Mass., Internet consulting company, Edgewater Technology Inc. Software tester Michael McDermott is charged with murder in the rampage. Authorities said the shooting may have stemmed from an Internal Revenue Service order to seize part of his wages to repay back taxes. Nov. 2, 1999: Employee Byran Uyesugi opens fire at a Xerox Corp. office in Honolulu, killing seven before fleeing in a company van. He surrendered after a five-hour standoff with police and was later convicted and sentenced to life without parole. Aug. 5, 1999: Former employee Alan Eugene Miller shoots two people to death at a construction supply company where he worked in Pelham, Ala., and then kills third at business where he formerly worked. Miller was later convicted and sentenced to death. July 29, 1999: Nine people killed and 13 wounded at two Atlanta brokerage offices. Gunman Mark Barton, a former day trader who had reportedly lost more than $400,000 on his investments, later commits suicide. March 6, 1998: Former accountant for the Connecticut Lottery Corp., Matthew Beck, 35, fatally shoots four lottery senior executives and then kills himself. Dec. 18, 1997: Arturo Reyes Torres, 43, kills four former co-workers at maintenance yard in Orange, Calif., and is shot to death by police. Sept. 15, 1997: Fired assembly line worker Arthur H. Wise, 43, allegedly opens fire at Aiken, S.C., parts plant, killing four and wounding three others. His trial is scheduled to begin in January. [b]April 3, 1995: James Simpson, 28, walks into office of his former employer, Walter Rossler Co., a refinery inspection company, in Corpus Christi, Texas, and shoots five workers before shooting himself to death. [/b] Nov. 14, 1991: Fired postal worker Thomas McIlvane kills four supervisors and wounds five workers at the Royal Oak, Mich., post office, then kills himself. June 18, 1990: James Edward "Pop'' Pough kills nine and wounds four others at Jacksonville, Fla., office of General Motors Acceptance Corp., a car financing company, before killing himself. [b]and walter was a gun nut as well, big time. was not carrying that day, nor was anyone else. his gun was in his desk and he never made it that far[/b]
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