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Posted: 6/12/2003 6:21:29 PM EDT
Specifically, concerning FMJ ammo of a given bullet design, will the one with the highest energy always penetrate the furthest? As an example, would a 9mm with 400 lb/ft penetrate further than a 185 grain .45 with 390 lb/ft., and would they both penetrate further than a 230 grain .45 with 375 lb/ft? Thanks!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:34:02 PM EDT
Firstly FMJ is a bad choice for stopping people and 9mm FMJ is amongst the worst it has a bad reputation for over penetration. FMJ should be used only for practice unless you have no other choice. 9mm FMJ will almost always penetrate further than .45acp FMJ. 9mm usually has a higher muzzle velocity than .45acp and a smaller cross section so it tends not to slow down as fast as .45. If you mission is to shoot through walls 9mm is a good choice if you want to stop people .45 is the winner without a doubt. Its bigger cross section allows .45 to expend more of its energy in the target. But again any FMJ is a very poor choice for stopping people.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:34:04 PM EDT
Please God, make it stop.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:37:26 PM EDT
Oh shit, let the war begin.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:38:46 PM EDT
Johnphin = [:K]
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:40:19 PM EDT
Hey isn't that the gun De Niro used in Heat?
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:40:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 2IDdoc: Please God, make it stop.
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Who has the picture that says, "Aww jeez, not this shit again!" That's what I was thinking.... [peep].45 is best.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:40:41 PM EDT
They both suck Just trying to get the flame-fest started.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:41:59 PM EDT
Oh Jeezuz. IBTL
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:42:17 PM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:44:05 PM EDT
No, No, NO! I'm not trolling. Seriously, I am not interested in stopping people. This has nothing to do with which one stops better. I want to know strictly about penetration, and specifically, if energy is directly related to penetration. This should be strictly scientific, not based on "stopping power" or some other statistics based theory. For practical purposes, assume that we have two identicle bullets, except for their mass. The bullet with less mass is going faster than the bullet with more mass. Energy is the same. Will they both penetrate the same, or is there another variable that I've missed?
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:49:42 PM EDT
Air In - Blood Out!!! .45 Wins.... 9's are training wheels for .45's! There! I started it!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:54:25 PM EDT
YOU HAVE TWO HANDS JUST CARRY A 9mm AND A .45!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:08:00 PM EDT
They're BOTH better than the .40. I HATE that f_ucking cartridge!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:11:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2003 7:15:14 PM EDT by Noname]
HPAPIT 50BMG if you want to be sure...! (PS---Here's some jello shots...) [url]http://www.ammolab.com/Test%20Results.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:13:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnphin: No, No, NO! I'm not trolling. Seriously, I am not interested in stopping people. This has nothing to do with which one stops better. I want to know strictly about penetration, and specifically, if energy is directly related to penetration. This should be strictly scientific, not based on "stopping power" or some other statistics based theory. For practical purposes, assume that we have two identicle bullets, except for their mass. The bullet with less mass is going faster than the bullet with more mass. Energy is the same. Will they both penetrate the same, or is there another variable that I've missed?
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Your example of two bullets that are identical except for their mass is not the same as 9mm vs .45. If you were to compare a 115gr FMJ 9mm to a 147gr FMJ 9mm, now you are talking identical except for mass (and length, obviously). Ditto for 185gr FMJ .45 ACP versus 230gr FMJ .45 ACP. In those cases, always bet on the heaviest bullet penetrating the deepest, assuming comparable chamber pressures. High sectional density (mass/area) combined with moderate velocity yields more penetration than low sectional density and high velocity. This also assumes neither bullet will yaw or fragment. It is more complicated than this but this serves as a good "rule of thumb".
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:26:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:30:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:52:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: .45 and a shovel.
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Ain't no one gonna miss ya. Have my daughter home by midnight.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:23:30 PM EDT
Depends on how good your aim is. Shot for shot .45 is better. .45 recoil scares some people. They put more rounds on target with the 9mm. 9 mm gives you more follow up shots. Split the difference and get a .40 cal- or- Carry BOTH and you will be just fine!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:33:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2003 9:33:49 PM EDT by ML1911]
[beathorse]
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:48:29 PM EDT
sherrick13, chuckhammer, thanks for reading my post long enough to have an intellegent answer to my question.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 10:02:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnphin: I want to know strictly about penetration...
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It's time we've had a talk, son... [:D] -UHLEK-
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 10:26:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -UHLEK-:
Originally Posted By Johnphin: I want to know strictly about penetration...
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It's time we've had a talk, son... [:D] -UHLEK-
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[LOL] I missed that completely... [:D]
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 10:37:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:33:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shadowblade: Chuckhammer - I was thinking the exact opposite. IF energy and diameter of the bullet were the same, and the only differences were mass and velocity, I think penetration would be the same. However, since the 9mm has a smaller diameter, and has the same energy in this instance, it should penetrate further than the larger bullet. Johnphin - Keep in mind that velocity has a much greater effect on energy than mass does (e=m x v^2). as an example: m=10 v=10 e=1000 m=20 v=10 e=2000 m=10 v=20 e=4000
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Your point about energy (the ability to do work) is valid if the two bullets have identical drag coefficients. The problem with lighter bullets is they are shorter (for the same diameter) and therefor have higher drag. A test would tell us if the increase in drag from the lighter/shorter/faster bullet would be enough to overcome its energy advantage over the heavier/longer/slower bullet (i.ei., 185gr .45 vs. 230gr .45). You're correct that energy is more greatly effected by velocity than mass, however you stated the equation incorrectly. You forgot the 1/2: KE = 1/2 M x V^2 m=10 v=10 e=500 When calculating muzzle energy you have to be careful with units. Velocity will be in ft/s and mass will be in grains (1/7000 lb). Since you are working in the US system of units, you must convert lb force (weight) to slugs (mass). The resulting equation looks like this: ft-lb = 1/2 x gr x (1 lb / 7000 gr) x (1 slug / 32.2 lb) x (ft/s)^2 Ex: 369 ft-lb = 1/2 x 230 gr x (1 lb/7000 gr) x (1 slug/32.2 lb) x (850 ft/s)^2
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:46:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:49:04 PM EDT
I don't know about flesh (assuming thats the medium you are reffering to) but in wet telephone books stuffed in a mailbox it is a 115 grain 9mm. Two weeks ago I tested penetration of bullets in my Taurus (9mm) PT 92 and millenium 45. 230 grain hp went through only about 1/2 phone book while 185 grain silvertip hp went almost through one book. 147 grain hp 9mm went through 2 and pressed into third while 115 grain hp went into 3 books. Hardly scientific but I dion't know the ballistic gelatin recipe and I wanted to put my mailbox to good use after some ass hit it with a bat.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:11:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFNG: YOU HAVE TWO HANDS JUST CARRY A 9mm AND A .45!!!!!!!!!!
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Now for the test, which hand penetrates further, has more muzzle climb, and of course, the more accurate one?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:33:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dc899: I don't know about flesh (assuming thats the medium you are reffering to) but in wet telephone books stuffed in a mailbox it is a 115 grain 9mm. Two weeks ago I tested penetration of bullets in my Taurus (9mm) PT 92 and millenium 45. 230 grain hp went through only about 1/2 phone book while 185 grain silvertip hp went almost through one book. 147 grain hp 9mm went through 2 and pressed into third while 115 grain hp went into 3 books. Hardly scientific but I dion't know the ballistic gelatin recipe and I wanted to put my mailbox to good use after some ass hit it with a bat.
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You're right, this isn't close to scientific, no flame intended. A PT-92 9mm has a 5" bbl and a Millenium .45 has ~3.5" bbl. This throws the velocities way off for comparison. In addition, the 9mm 115 hp is on the lighter side of 9s where the .45 230 hp is the heaviest .45.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:02:21 PM EDT
The .458 Socom. Use the cartridge designed to take out engine blocks. That's the ticket.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 9:44:47 PM EDT
The .45acp allows you the Gee I must have wrong built in factor! Bob [:D]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 1:45:55 AM EDT
Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:02:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnphin: ...or is there another variable that I've missed?
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Cross sectional area and shape. A needle will penetrate farther than a manhole cover.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:10:13 AM EDT
my personal preference is the .45ACP however, I do have a 9mm and .32ACP at the ready. (depends on location) any firearm in any caliber when you need one, is better than no firearm at all. Just be sure to effectively employ it.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:37:55 AM EDT
These tables obviously contain a lot of emperical data but interesting none the less. Note the difference in recoil between the .40 vs the 9mm and .45acp.... [url]http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm[/url] [url]http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:47:08 AM EDT
No one ever had to argue that the .45ACP was a good as 9mm [;)]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 9:19:59 AM EDT
Take both... 9mm +P fast and deadly .45 ACP slow and deadly
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 9:30:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: it all depends on whether the shooter is weaeing marpat. I hear that adds 1000fps to any bullet fired. A 9mm is a .45 set on stun. mike
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Since when did guns come with a "Bitch-Slap" setting?
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 9:32:30 AM EDT
The sound of a dead and rotting horse being senselessly beaten....
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 10:48:57 AM EDT
for military use, I would choose the .45 acp cartridge, because they are only allowed to use "FMJ" ammo, the bigger 230 gr fmj slug has better stopping power than a 9mm 115 gr fmj. .45 acp 230 gr fmj has a good reputation used in combat.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:14:15 PM EDT
.45 all the way...9mm is a pussy round...[:D]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:30:22 PM EDT
the standard GI .45 acp 230 gr full metal jacket round weighs twice as much as the standard GI 9mm 115 gr fmj in current use! Getting hit by a .45 has more trauma and shock effect for a military fmj pistol rd. the shock or trauma caused by a standard .45 auto is a better man stopper than the 9mm rd. It's like getting hit by a slug. Thats why it often has a one shot stopping capability with good shot placement, the 9mm often requires multiple hits to stop a man.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:59:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Thunderbolt: the standard GI .45 acp 230 gr full metal jacket round weighs twice as much as the standard GI 9mm 115 gr fmj in current use! Getting hit by a .45 has more trauma and shock effect for a military fmj pistol rd.
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FYI: NATO standard (and US standard) 9mm is a 124gr FMJ projectile.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:31:00 PM EDT
.40
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 3:41:03 PM EDT by chuckhammer]
Originally Posted By drut: .40
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Welcome to the best message board on the 'net. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:42:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:54:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: One of these days we just have to think of something new to fight over.
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How 'bout AK vs AR, Republican vs Libertarian, Christian vs Atheist, Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice, Ford vs Chevy, Displacement vs Forced Induction, Revolver vs Semi-Auto, Colt vs Other ARs, 1911 vs Other Pistols, Rap vs Other Music, Kalifornia vs Other States, Porn vs Drama (?!) Never mind, you said "new". [;)]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 4:08:11 PM EDT
Lets see....taste great...or...less filling
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 6:01:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnphin: Specifically, concerning FMJ ammo of a given bullet design, will the one with the highest energy always penetrate the furthest? As an example, would a 9mm with 400 lb/ft penetrate further than a 185 grain .45 with 390 lb/ft., and would they both penetrate further than a 230 grain .45 with 375 lb/ft? Thanks!
View Quote
Energy doesn't have much to do with penetration. The cross sectional density and momentum of a bullet are primarly indicators of penetration.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 5:10:49 PM EDT
Okay here is the senero you have to take one shot to the let arm to receive insurance payments,you get your choice 9mm or .45acp! Enough said! Bob [:D]
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