What absolute horseshit.  I suggest you study some history.

Israel started a war?????????  What a joke.

I noticed that too.  The Jew haters never give the full facts and never acknowledge that there is no such thing as a 'palestinian'.  Arafart is an Egyptian and most of the so-called 'palestinians' are Jordanian and Egyptians that have been run out of there own countries because they are scum.

No one got upset when those countries were shitting all over those people, but when the Israelis try to survive their terrorism, the Jew haters really get upset over it.

Because when you care enuff to send the VERY best.....

[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=4987[/img]

Who had land taken away from them?  Certainly not the so-called palestinians, as there is no such thing.  These are scum that were run out of their own countries, so your point is bullshit.  What distorted history.  Of course, I guess that is to be expected from some quarters.

I can't believe that any Americans would side with those who danced with joy on September 11, 2001.  I guess hating Jews is more important.

Because TOW'S and Hellfire's beat the heck out of throwing rocks.

My only problem with the Israeli's firing rockets. is that they'er just not fireing enough of them.

The fighting will continue till one side annihilates the other.
I hope the Israelis win because if the muslims do then they will be coming after us soon after.
Also I can not stomach any group that considers innocents and children as legitimate targets. A disco or a pizza parlor has no military value. A car with a military leader does even if the are collateral damages.
When did the last jew target a building full of civilians in a nation that was trying to help settle their pet conflict?
Sometimes I feel so much rage against islam I can't help but wish someone would set a nuke off in mecca.

'Fraid not Sport. Egypt had blockaded the Straits of Tiran, an internationally recognized Act of War.  That's what prompted the Israeli attack into Sinai.

I love you "experts" who pontificate, and don't know what the hell you're talking about---NOT[;D]


(Edited to Add) Whoops, Az-Larry beat me to it.[:D] Oh well, idiots need to be told everything at least twice, or more.

Clearly a personel attack. Oh moderator?

And what we are talking about is [img]http://mq-mapgend.websys.aol.com/mqmapgend?MQMapGenRequest=FDR2dmwjDE%3byt29%26FDJnci4Jkqj%2cMMCJ%3aHOEvq%3b01s1yz%3alw15da%24%3a%26%40%24%3a%26y%245hf%24su6%24HJQD%11T%26FDBBD%7clu2g1f%24xqr2ng%40%24%3a%26%40%24%3a%26a2%3a[/img]

It is my  bet that the massed Egyptian army was of much more conern than access to the red sea.

I agree, but the fact that the Strait of Tiran was blocked before the attack takes away the preemption argument. Besides the massing of Egyptian troops, the famous Israeli spy Eli Cohen had penetrated so high in Syrian military circles that he had the combined Arab war plan and was able to transmit it to Israel before being captured(with the help of the KGB)by the Syrians. Really nobody except the most blatant revisionist believes that Israel "started" the 67 war.

fearlessrogue, you have every right to be as anti-Israel as you want. It's a free country and I support your right to express that view even though I disagree. I just think you should really learn the history of the conflict from an objective point of view. Both sides have tons of propoganda out there, but there are some very strong objective books on the conflict that would give either weight to your argument or possibly change your mind.  

[b][red]You found M4_Aiming_at_U's Hidden Treasure!!![/red][/b]

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p58ab74d7601e9dd47225829bbe0bc95c/fbd6435e.jpg[/img]

A Hellfire is a stand off weapon system. Why expose your helo crew to small arms and RPG fire?

Its not always easy(or safe) enough to get that close in those areas with a manned laser aiming unit.

The fourth generation Hellfire uses radar and is "fire and forget". This is what the Apache Longbow uses. I believe the Israelis use the Longbow?

Because most of the time they say "rockets" they are hellfire missiles, beside the fact that the FCS in the Apache allows extreme accuracy even when using rockets.

They do stand off. They shoot from 3-4km downrange and 3-4thousand feet altitude. Its kind of different from the normal attack mission flown by US Army Apaches.

They also use their rebuilt Cobras, largly a Israeli development even if the airframes were originally built here in the US. Those occasionally use Hellfire-the IDF introduced the compact nose sight that USMC AH-1Z's use. But lately have been using the TV or IIR guided NT-Dandy missile, another member of the family that includes the Gill and Spike ground ATGWs. It has a fiber optic data link that allows the gunner to intervene anywhere along the line. Or they can deliberately break the cable and it becomes a fire and forget missile like Javelin.

And the Arab "palestinians" need to get back to Jordan and Syria where they [b]came from[/b] to occupy the vacuum left in Palestine when the Turks pulled out after WWI.  When the area was supposed to go to the Jews according to the Balfour declaration, which was ratified by the League of Nations.  Which was upheld and ratified by the UN in 1947.

The streamed into the land to purposely fill it up so there would be no room for the Jews.  The arabs are the squatters, not the Jews.
It's too bad most people are so illeterate and ignorant about history.  The Palestine was never an arab land after the Turks came into the area over a thousand years ago.  The Arabs only conquered the land in the 7th century, and lost it in the 9th.  It had been the home of European and Byzantine (eastern Roman Empire) people since the Temple was lost in 70 AD.  The Crusades were fought to repel the Arab invasion, contrary to popular (ignorant) belief.

Sheesh

I am always open to reading a new book, what do you suggest?

To me a war begins when people start dieing. (OT have you guys ever seen the movie "The Mouse That Roared") The war was inevitable, and Israel made the right decision when they preempted.

I am not anti-israel nor an I pro-arab (far from it), but I take issue witht he massive amount of money that our country is giving to peoples that do not share out values. I find it terrible that America just cuts Israel a check every year does not keep track of where it goes. Giving support to Egypt or selling arms to the Saudis is just as idiotic.

Lets face it, if Israel shared American values they would have assimilated (one way or another...) the people of the "occupied territories"  or they would have imposed a government and intervened whenever things went wrong (think cuba for most of the first half of the last century).

Could we not just blame the entire matter on the UN and LofN? It would make everything a lot simpler...

Ironic, isn't it?   [LOLabove]

They offered to!!  Many thousands of Arabs become Israeli citizens and have full rights equal to any ethnic Jew.  ALL of the "refugees" were offered the same deal; citizen, leave, or stay and behave.  Some chose each option, plus the ones who tried to leave but were returned by Jordan, Syria, and Egypt (forcibly!) and the ones who lied, said they would behave, and began this terrorist behaviour.

My comment was not in reference to the land that Israel succeeded in taking/holding on to/watever in '48. Though there where some abuses in that war most of what happened was not all that terrible. The land outside of the '67 border (or hell Israel proper) but now controlled by Israel (or nominally the PA)  is what my comment was in reference to.

And the name of the country was Trans-Jordan...

Oh dear, I guess you'll have to pick up your marbles and run home now, eh?

You come on this site with Nazi propanganda from the ZOG site, don't expect to be welcomed with open arms by a group of people who believe that decent folks have a right to protect themselves from murdering outlaw terrorists.

What in the fuck are you talking about? I tripple dog dare you to show a citation.

The reason I posted that was because one of prior post had been editied by a mod when I responed to a personel attack.

Either put up or shut up. Failure to provide a citation will show yourself to be not the sharpest tool in shed.


Interseting post. A couple points:
1. Was not Hamas basicly inactive from the time of the Oslo accords to the time of Ariel Sharrons visit to the Temple Mount?

2.Would it not be prefferable to have killed a lot of paliestinians way back when and then had peace, if it were possible?

Sorry; it's hard to tell which definition of "occupied territories" a particular person may have been using.
I struggled with how to call where they needed to go, but settled that they couldn't go to TransJordan, so...

[b]AMEN!!![/b]

Q: "Why Does Israel Keep Using Rockets?"

A: Because There Are Still Palesinians Left To Shoot Them At...

I agree with the premise that if the B.S. in Israel is ever going to end, it's going to be because Israel, as a Nation, gets fed up with the terrorism and begins leveling whole Palestinian cities and towns. Level one town and ask if they're through. Not done yet? O.K., we'll level this city. STILL not finished? Alright, here goes that town. Had enough?

You get the picture...

Want a similar scenario?

The U.S. drops an Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima.

"Hey, Hirohito, had enough? Unconditionally surrender? No? Alrighty then..."

Another Atomic Bomb lands on Nagasaki.

"Well, Hirohito, ready to surrender unconditionally now? You ARE?!? Good...we knew you'd see it our way..."

Now, I am NOT saying that Israel should use nukes on the Palestinians, so don't even go there.

What I am saying is that Israel needs to "take the gloves off". ALL THE WAY OFF...with no apologies to anyone...

Just a thought to people that would... Fallout.

A possible answer?
Dresden.

Nice. For the record why did egypt not get Gaza back in '79??? Half the problem would havr gone away.

fearlessrogue, here are two books that will give you both a broad historical look at the area. 1st, "A HISTORY OF PALESTINE 634-1099" By Moshe Gil. This period is from the beginning of the Moslem conquest until the Crusades. The word Palestine in the title is the name given Judea by the Romans an kept by the Byzantines at that time. It was a name resurrected by the Arabs as "Filistine", actually Jund Filistine or the area of government by the conquering Arab tribes. Arabs were always a minority in the area. The indigenous population was both Christian and Jewish. The other book, more pertinent to the present conflict is "FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL" By Joan Peters. She was a pro-Palestinian who set out to write a book showing that they had their land stolen. Contrary to that end, she discovered that the Palestinian Arab population was created by the British and Arabs to offset the Jewish return to their ancestral homeland. She through her research completely turned around. The first book is more of a text book, pretty tough reading. Peters' book is much more readable.

The easy answer is that Gaza never rightfully belonged to Egypt; it went to Israel in both the Balfour and 1947 UN declarations.

The pragmatic answer is that it is too easy to use as a staging area for Egypt in the next war. If Egypt had it, it could stage tanks and troops there for a really short run into inhabited Israel.  With Israel holding it, the tanks have to cross the Sinai, and are kinda obviously attacking at that point.

Oh, you didn't think that Gaza was ever Palestinian, did you?  No, the Gaza strip was captured from *Egypt*, the Golan from Syria, and I believe the West Bank was Jordanian.  

WELL SAID.

i equate it to the movie "The Rock" with Sean Connery on a smaller scale.

Remember when Ed Harris was demanding the chips back and Cage was contemplating as he was holding the chips?

When Sean Connery took them and destroyed them, there were no barganing "chips" (sorry)

Too late, what's done is done.

If Israel does what it has to in a large scale, YEAH people will be pissed and "Condemn" their actions but what's done is done, cant take it back.

Also remember when the Israelis destroyed the Iraqi nuke plant?

EVERYONE condemned their actions, almost 20 years later, many are saying: "guess they were right"

Don't tempt me to open my mouth, I was banned from full-auto for expressing my veiws, and they were not stupid I hate... or kill all... either.

[:K]

Do you ever feel that some topics are just oo long to read them all. So I will post this anyways.


....and Suicide Bombers always go after Military targets and never kill children.

FROM fearlessrogue.............I am not anti-israel nor an I pro-arab (far from it), but I take issue witht he massive amount of money that our country is giving to peoples that do not share out values. I find it terrible that America just cuts Israel a check every year does not keep track of where it goes. Giving support to Egypt or selling arms to the Saudis is just as idiotic.

Lets face it, if Israel shared American values they would have assimilated (one way or another...) the people of the "occupied territories"  or they would have imposed a government and intervened whenever things went wrong (think cuba for most of the first half of the last century).[/quote] END QUOTE.........

WHAT??????? FIRSTLY, ISRAEL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHO ACCEPTS U.S. MONEY AND DOESNT BURN ITS FLAG.

AMERICA AND ISRAEL DO SHARE THE SAME VALUES, IN A DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM FOR ITS CITIZENS. ON THE LAST NOTE I MEAN THE CITIZENS THAT RECOGNISE ISRAELS RIGHT TO EXIST. WHAT YOU PROPOSE IS PROPSTEROUS FOR YOU ARE NOT LIVING IN THE REALITY OF THE MIDDLE EAST. ISRAEL HAS ALWAYS TRIES TO GIVE UP THAT LAND BUT THERE WAS NO PEACFULL GOVERNMENT TO TAKE IT. HOW CAN ANY COUNTRY ESPECIALLY ONE THE SIZE OF ISRAEL TOLERATE A STATE THAT IS RIGHT NEXT TO IT THAT IS BENT ON ITS TOTAL DISTRUCTION.

AS FOR AID. I KNOW ALOT OF YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO HEAR THIS FROM ME BUT I ACTUALLY FEEL THAT ISRAEL SHOULD STOP RECIEVING THAT SO CALLED AID. LET ME EXPLAIN. FIRSTLY DONT MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ISRAEL RECIVES ALL THE AID. IT ONLY GETS ONE OUT OF EVERY SIX DOLLARS THAT THE US SPENDS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND IF YOU ASK ME WITH ISRAEL IT SURE GETS ITS MONEYS WORTH IN TERMS OF THE ENORMOUS CONTRIBUTION THAT THE U.S. HAS RECIVED IN TERMS OF TECNOLOGY (ISRAELI TECHNOLOGY IS PERMEATED THROUGHOUT THE U.S. MILITARY) INTELLIGENCE AND VALUABLE BATTLEFIELD EXPERIENCE THAT ISRAEL HAS TAUGHT THE U.S. ANOTHER MAJOR POINT IS THE MONEY THAT ISRAEL DOES RECIVE, ABOUT 60 TO 70 PERCENT OF THAT MUST BE SPENT IN THE U.S SO THE U.S REALLY GETS ITS MONEY BACK. THIS ALL COMES AT A DETRIMENT TO ISRAEL'S OWN FIRST CLASS ARMS INDUSTRY. WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE IS THAT YES I DO APPRECIATE THE HELP THAT ISRAEL GETS FROM THE U.S. BUT IF IT IS GOING TO COME WITH THE ADDED FACT THAT ISRAEL HAS TO LISTEN TO WHAT THE U.S. SAYS CONERNING ITS OWN DEFENSE, THEN FRANKLY ITS UNACCAPTABLE, FOR THE U.S DOESNT ALWAYS HAVE ISRAEL'S INTERESTS AT MIND FOR IT HAS TO APPEASE THE ARABS FOR ITS OIL, THIS IS WHY WE SEE THE CLEAR DOUBLE STANDARD IN THE WAY THE U.S FIGHTS TERRISIM AND THE WAY IT TELLS ISRAEL TO NOT FIGHT!

The reason they use missiles is simple:

They want to make SURE that everyone in the target vehicle or office is honest-to-goodness-not-coming-back DEAD. The only way to do that, given the circumstances, is to blow the !#%!%ers up...

Also, there is the attempt to create an image that 'it's not safe to hang around terrorists, you might get blown up' effect...

P.S. We do the same thing, but with bigger (1-2k lb) bombs & cruise missiles... Witness the strikes on Saddam's hideouts...

Especially the first attack in this string... If we KNEW Osama was driving down the street somewhere, don't you think we'd send an air strike after him??? 'Cause to Israel, the leader of Hamas is their Bin Laden (or one of them, anyhow)...

The S.P.E.C.T.R.E. solution (named after Blowfeld's crew from 007, as 'we destroy one city per day untill you give us what we want' was one of their favorite threats) might actually work... After all, we know they respond to massive force (See 'Black September')...

Another option is to replicate what we did to the Indians... Force-march the Palis out of Israel proper... The main problem with this is there's nowhere for them to go... Maybe load them on a ship, and park them on some island somewhere...

Back to Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.
USA should make their "brothers" accept the refugees and pay for their settlement with oil revenue.

You sir are a f-ing moron. You missed the entire point of my post. Probably because you worked yourself up into such a frenzy that you couldn't see straight.

You are correct that there never was a country named Palestine.  It was a land that was a part of the Ottoman Empire and then was taken by the British. The British after WWII divided much of their empire up into independant countries. Palistine was not one of those countries. You are also correct in saying the Palestinians are unwanted. They are, however, an ethinic group.  They are an undersireable ethinic group according to their Arab neighbors. Just ask the late King of Jordon who killed more Palis than the Isrealis ever had.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuaries, many Jews moved to the area known as Palistine. They worked the land. The land became more and more productive and fertile. After WWII with tragedies like the Holocost and an incident with a ship loaded with Jews (I can't think of the name of the ship offhand), it was decided to create a homeland for the Jewish people. Much like the Palistinians the Jews were unwanted in Europe. Kind of ironic when you think about it.  Anyway Jewish people already owned a sizeable portion of the area known as Palistine. So the Brits, who still controlled the land, (I can't remember off hand if the operated in concert with the U.N.) divided Palistine up between the Jews and the Palis.  If I remember this correctly, and I may be off on certain details because I'm going purely by memory, the division did not create a Palistinian state. I don't think they had a chance to consider it because the day after Isreal was created they were invaded by Egypt, Syria, and Jordon.  The fledgling country fought off their attackers and managed to grab more land.  Then in 1967 they preemptively attacked the same three countries and grabbed more land. Then after being attacked in 1973 by Egypt and Syria, Isreal took more land(they actually took land west of the Suez Canal and trapped an Egyptian army there). The only country to get land back has been Egypt and that is because they recognized the state of Isreal.  

That is a decent general history. My main points are: 1.There is/was an ethnic group of arabs called the Palistinians and the modern nation of Isreal took land that originally belonged to them starting during the Isreali War of 1948 and continuing through the 1967 and 1973 wars.  The land before then was either: a. purchased by Jews, or b. given to them by the British who was the current owner/controller of the land.
2. There is/was a geographical area known as Palistine. Palistine, however, was never its own nation.

Now back to my original post. If you didn't work yourself up into another frenzy and still have the attention span to make it down this far, Larry G.  The point of my original post was made to point out the hypocrisy of the people who argue for Isreal to give the land back and that the Isrealis deserve what they get because they occupy Palistinian lands.  If those people want to be consistant in their arguments then they must also call for Native Americans to rise up against their white oppressors and take their lands back. Pretty absurd. It's called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. It becomes obvious with a little thought, which is unfair because you may be incapable of it, that I'm not siding with the Palis. Moron!

Now on to your reaction. Never call me a Jew-hater, because I am not. And NEVER lump me in with the Anti-American crowd. Apologize for both and I'll apologize for the f-ing moron comment, maybe, it does seem like you went a long way to earn it.

Actually, between 1918 and May, 1948, when the term "Palestinian" was used, it generally referred to the JEWS who lived there, not the Arabs.  Be that as it may, the labels are not nearly as important as the results

The simple fact is that Israel exists, the Arabs hate that fact, and a good many of them in surrounding countries, are willing to provide money and material support to the terrorists who are causing the problems

They ARE NOT freedom fighters. Freedom for an Arab state on the West Bank and Gaza is already assured, if the terrorists would just stop murdering Israelis. Yes, there are still questions of boundries to be settled and time limits for changes to be worked out, but the terrorists don't want a Palestinian state in those territories. They want the whole damned ball of wax; with the Jews driven out or dead.

So long as the Arab man on the dtreet supports these aims, and the vast majority of them (even the ones who take no active role in the killing) do, there will be no peace, nor any settlement of the issue.

Arafat was offered over 90% of what the Arabs say they want at Camp David. He turned it down flat, and the bulk of the Arabs on the West Bank and Gaza supported his rejection. Doesn't that tell you something about what the bastards really want?

Excellent points all.

Alright, I misread your post and am in total agreement, except that I don't think the so-called 'palestinians' had any land taken away from them in the first place, so it's moot point.

I would normally apologize, but since you, not me, got worked up into a frenzy and started calling names, I will not apologize and you can stick your attitude where the sun don't shine.

I love being a Zionist dupe.

Next a thread on our Corporate Entities?

Did anyone bother reading this? Why the hell people shout is beyond me.

They have jack for oil...