[V][:(!][50]

Israel attacking Gaza targets with choppers..

I wish the US would step aside and let Israel handle this problem. Israel could take care of these people real quick and thoroughly if we'd stop interfering and allow Israelis to defend themselves. Would the US continuously have to tolerate what Israel does? I would hope not.

Bush needs to butt out. The Road Map is a Road Map to Auschwitz.  The Islamists don't want peace, they want dead Jews. The sooner Bush realizes that this isn't about geography, the better. Sadly more will die first.

And, the Israelies need to fight this like a real war, not some policing senario.

Jack19...right on. This cannot go on forever. At some point there will have to be a ceasing of terror bombings by the Palestinians. If not, one day the Israeli's will have to relocate all Palestinians back to Jordan.

Israeli counterstrike kills top Hamas leader

Job well done, for a second try [V]

Israel made attacked yesterday, Hamas reacted (probaly) today. This was an attack on a differnt hamas guy.



This is retaliation that Israel could/should have avoided.

I stand by my previous statement that Israel could not hold much of the middle east as they have neither the econemy nor the military to occupy anthing more than what they have already  goten into.

Source, quoting Bush: 'We have a problem with Sharon'
By Akiva Eldar, Haaretz Correspondent

Behind-the-scenes exchanges between President
George Bush and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon at
last week's Aqaba summit may hint at a certain
shift in the American stance, from the Israeli to
the Palestinian side, according to a participant
in the three-way meeting of the delegations.


The source quoted Bush as
telling his National Security
Adviser Condoleezza Rice that
"I see that we have a problem
with Sharon," while saying of
the Palestinians led by Prime
Minister Mahmoud Abbas, "We
can work with them."

At one point, an irked Bush

reportedly rebuked Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz,
telling him "Oh, but I think that you can [help
the Palestinians]. And I think that you will."


At the advance request of Israel at the summit,
Bush's aides had put security problems at the top
of the agenda for discussion. "The first thing
that Bush was required to talk about was
security," the participant said, adding, "It was
a request of the Israelis. So [Bush] asked Dahlan
to give a briefing."
[b]
According to the source, Dahlan gave an excellent
five-minute synopsis of the situation, and
concluded by saying to Bush: "There are some
things we can do and some things we cannot. We
will do our best. But we will need help."

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz burst in at the end
of Dahlan's presentation and said: "Well, they
won't be getting any help from us; they have
their own security service."

You could see that Bush was irritated, the
participant said, and Bush turned on Mofaz
angrily: "Their own security service? But you
have destroyed their security service."

Mofaz shook his head and said: "I do not think
that we can help them, Mr. President," - to which
Bush said: "Oh, but I think that you can. And I
think that you will."

Then Bush turned to Abbas - again according to a
script insisted on by the Israelis - and said:
"Mr. Prime Minister, perhaps you could give an
overview of the situation in the West Bank and
Gaza."

Abbas outlined the increasingly dire situation of
the territories, saying that the humanitarian
crisis was deepening, and that while recent
actions of the finance minister had eased the
problems, the insertion of new funding was
necessary.

Sharon then interrupted and said: "The insertion
of new funding must be dependent on your good
behavior." Bush was again visibly irritated:
"You should release their money as soon as
possible. This will help the situation."

Sharon shook his head: "We have to deal with
security first, and we will condition the release
of their monies on this alone." Bush peered at
Sharon: "But it is their money ..." Sharon
said: "Nevertheless, Mr. President ..." and Bush
interrupted him: "It is their money, give it to
them."[/b]

After that meeting, Bush turned to National
Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and said, "We
have a problem with Sharon I can see, but I like
that young man [Dahlan] and I think their prime
minister is incapable of lying. I hope that they
will be successful. We can work with them."

Bush was also pleased with the determination with
which Abbas rebuffed pressure from his ministers,
Nabil Sha'ath and Yasser Abed Rabbo, to toughen
the language of the Abbas speech, which he had
agreed upon with the American delegation before
the summit. They said it would cause trouble in
the Palestinian Authority. They argued heatedly
with Abbas about his comments, at one point in
front of the president. But Abbas insisted that
his remarks follow the outlines set out by Bush.


Bush watched the interplay and was pleased that
Abbas agreed to the American president's
suggestions on the draft remarks: "If you will
just do this, I pledge to you we will get where
your colleagues want you to go. But we are going
to take one step at a time."

Bush is trying to reel both sides in from the positions they occupy to a place where they can both begin negotiations after having given a bit.

It's a noble cause, and one that will be hellishly difficult, especially since one side (the Palistinians) has an active faction that doesn't want peace at all, and the other side (Israel) is unwilling to get hit without striking back (a perfectly reasonable position, IMHO).

The biggest problem now is Hamas. They must be hunted down and exterminated like the vile vermin they are. Perhaps, if the NEW Palestinian leadership can get Israel to agree to some conscetions, then they will turn agains Hamas themselves. I can't imagine ALL of them want this lunacy to continue...

Either way, getting these two sides to settle down will be far worse than herding cats, but I think GWB is giving it a good try and showing some REAL leadership.

If it doesn't work this time, however, then I agree fully with those who want Israel to settle this once and for all...

Israel went after Tito, the head of the military for Hamas.

Then there was another smaller explosion by the Palis that killed 5 more.

Wish we could go in and clean up the palestinian problem.

I agree with most of what you said, except for this comment.

As difficult is it is for rational people to understand, the vast majority of muslims want only one thing;  the total annihilation of all Jews.

That's it.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

Pres. Bush cannot give the Pales enough land to satisfy them.  If he could give them [u]all[/u] of Israel, they would still not be content until they "pushed all Jews into the sea."  That is their stated purpose and always will be.

There is only one thing that will solve this problem.  You can read about it in the book of Revelation.

And I hate to spoil it for you, but the arabs lose.

Painless,

I know where you're coming from. I'm simply leaving out a single thread of hope that somewhere, SOMEWHERE, there are at least a few Muslims who DON'T think that way.

I know it's a forelorn hope, but there it is.

That being said, I'm far less picky about collateral damage when it comes to these people than I would be for, say..........., [b]ANYONE[/b] else.

My sig line says it all. My hope is captured in the word "radical", but only barely so...

I concur... the time to totally WIPE-OUT Hamas has long since come and gone. I have little empathy or sympathy for the Palestinians because of Hamas. If they were to clean their own house maybe I could "feel" for them. But as long as they (and most of the rest of the Muslim world) stay silent (or even celebrate the attacks) then I will continue to condemn the Palestinians and militant Islam. I wouldn't expect Isreal to try and contain them. I would expect them to wipe them out. If America had as many instances of Palestinian suicide bombers as Isreal does -- I am pretty sure we would obliterate them. In that case, I would be in favor of the "nuke 'em first and ask questions later" mode of foreign policy. When the little ants start biting, you don't try to figure out which ones are doing the biting, you just squash 'em.

Everyone seems to be pro-Israel here judging from the posts. I look at the situation from a different prospective. I don't know what the Muslims want. I assume they want the land back that Israel grabbed in 1967. The facts are that the USA backs Israel to the hilt with foriegn aide (our tax dollars), Israel is the single largest recipient of US foriegn aide as a matter of fact. Ever notice the military equipment that Israel uses? Yep! all US stuff. Ever notice the military equipment the Palestinians use? Yep! There ain't any. They use the only means available to them, gunpowder and human martars. Israel is in violation of virtually every United Nation arms treaty and nobody raises an eyebrow. Why? Because they are the United States biggest buddy. Hands off of Israel or you will have to deal with the US. The US talks tough about Israels actions to the press but, no action is ever taken. It's lip service for the press and the world. The bottom line is that the Palestinians don't stand a chance. You can't fight gunships with missles and 50 cal machine guns with bottles and rocks. It's not a level playing field, Israel and the US know this. If it was this dispute would have already been settled. Right is right and wrong is wrong, I can't see picking on somebody just because your bigger than they are (read bully). If you want to prove your military might pick on somebody the same size or in this case comparably equipped and then if you win you can pound your chest in earnest.

Absolutely correct. Hamas has vowed not to leave a single Jew alive- I say it's time for the Israelis' to take out Arafat and roll the tanks again.

Then you need to re-read my post.  They have told the world on many occasions what they want.  They want all Jews dead.  It couldn't be any clearer.



Nope. That land never belonged to the Palestinians.  It belonged to Jordan and Egypt.  But only because they had stolen it from the Jews centuries before.  The Jews just took it back.



Nope.  That's not the only means available.  They [u]could[/u] just live peaceably with the Jews.  That's an option.  They could quit murdering innocent women and children.  That would be an option.

But, no, they won't do that.  Why?  See my post above.



Gimme a break.  Who cares what the UN thinks.  Israel is a sovereign and free country, just like the United States.  If the UN told the US to give Texas back to Mexico, should we. I don't hardly think so.



Listen to yourself.  Not fair!??   By your logic, the Israelis could have killed all the Palestinians any time they wanted too.  Why didn't they?  Because, unlike the Pales, they are a civilized society and all they want is to live in peace with their neighbors.



So by your logic, we unfairly removed Saddam from his perch in Iraq?  We were "bigger" than him.  So we were bullies?

Sometimes, even small enemies can pull off something like 9-11.  When they do, it doesn't matter how big or small they are, they just need killing.

Israel has the right and responsibility to defend itself from Palestinian terrorists.  They need to do it faster.

It's clear we need to ship a bunch of mislabeled NO/NC switches to the Palestinian Radio Shacks.

I hate Nazis. Not surprisingly, they always show up on these threads.

Well said. Whoever doesn't get it at this point is either a) in denial, b) anti-Semitic, or c) stupid.

Or all three.

Thanks.

Sounds interesting. Ya'll support the Zionist's dream of an Eretz Israel, too?

Sounds interesting. Do YOU support all the usual people who use the word "Zionist" and want the Israelis pushed into the ocean?

The IDIOCY of some people never ceases to amaze me....

I think most of us just support Israel's right to exist.  That is what this conflict is all about.  This is apparently too much for a lot of American's to accept-a Jewish state, not to mention a friend in the mid-East that shares most of our values.  I am saddened.

A good number of Israelis want all the palistinians dead as well. Many just just don't say it out loud. Some Israelis don't have a problem saying it out loud and some even doing the killing. This time in history however the europeans don't have to lift a finger to kill thousands. They have instigated a crusade without spilling precious european blood. Wait until europe reduces us to throwing rocks at UN tanks. Its just all part of the plan. Or the alterante plan of the ultra extreme christians bringing the apocalypse. One should always remember that you can't tempt God.Or force him to play his hand by our rules.

WHat ticks me off the most is that if you believe that Israel has a right to exist, or that the turds blowing up busses full of innocent people are wrong, then you're immediately labled a Zionist, and are accused of wanting to herd all non-Jews into camps where they can be disposed of expeditiously and efficiently.

Rubbish!

I just don't understand how people make that leap of "logic"....

Dear Zaphod,

I'm thankful that you didn't resort to name calling, outright.

But, instead of accusations and innuendo, please calm down and answer my question:

[url=http://www.whtt.org/rpr/020921.htm]Eretz Israel[/url]? Do you support this aim?

Huh? [>:/]

Good grief! How many conspiracies can you thread together in one post? What rock have you been educated under to believe all that crap?

Nope. I only do that when it's very well deserved! [:D]



I had never heard of "Eretz Israel" until your post, and based on the link you have provided (i.e. - "From the Nile to the Euphrates - It's Ours"), the answer to your question is NO, I do not support it. I'm not an expert in the history of the area, but I recall nothing in my schooling that could be interpreted as supporting such a claim. The Arabs have just as much right to live free and in peace in their lands as do the Israelis.

That doesn't mean I think the Israelis don't deserve to live in peace in the land they currently posses and have had to shed copious quantities of blood to defend.

I guess I'll be called a Nazi next by someone on the other side.... [rolleyes]

Someone else summed it up perfectly:

If the Palestinians stopped fighting tomorrow there would be peace.

If Israel stopped fighting tomorrow, they would cease to exist.

I could add a few more if needed. I don't buy most  conspiracy theories. I just look at history. europe has been brutal to both its muslim and jewish populations. Thats the only cospiracy.  Can you think of a better way to destroy the enemies you hate by having them kill each other. As the apocalypse statement its all over mainstream media that elements of the christian dont want the peace process to go foward and do not want  palistine to exist.

The Europeans aren't smart enough to pull off what you describe, and the "Christians" who believe that war is the answer are a bunch of nutcases. You had it right when you said it is foolish and scary to try and force the Hand of the Almighty....

The other conspiracy is my bad typing. The europeans have only one brain. And obvious;y france does not have it.

Top off the Merkevas and fill up with ammo. The IDF is gonna roll in with help via the NSA and fuck them PLO's in the head!
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12862[/img]

When the crusaders asked Pope Innocent III who they should kill  because they said" the jews, chritsians and muslims all look the same" Innocent III replied "Kill them all God will know his own" It  is obvious the taste of blood is of old import.

Could someone tell me why Israel did not setup a pupet state at some point after '67?

Or why the palestinan should not dislike america as america send an atrocious amount of money to their enemies?

Or if the mossad is such a bunch of badasses, why do they no put a single bullet (less than or equal to 12.7 mm) into their enemies?

Or what is wrond with the term zionist? Refering to a Israeli solider as jewish is not always correct, but they are always acting for the zionist cause...

I used to think otherwise, but I'm beginning to believe that there will never be peace over there.

I will make one observation, however: While the Israeli's do kill civilians (at times) when going after legitimate targets, the Palestinians purposely target civilians most of the time. Neither is pure as the driven snow, but the Israel's are indeed the lesser of two evils. Spare me the spin about "that's the only way the Palestinians can respond" to superior force. One can say the same thing about any terrorist group. Intentionally killing civilians is WRONG.  

I keep wondering who this [b]"Isreal"[/b] is that everyone keeps talking about.

Something the news media fails to mention, when reporting a bombing: [url]www.WHTT.org/articles/020504.htm[/url]

Exactly who/what qualifies as an innocent civilian?

I am wondering if you have ever spoken with actual Israelis or Palestinians?

No?

Then you might want to and re-read those ultra justifications of terrorism in those articles.

ARgue,
Where did you find that bullshit link? Jeez, just a little one-sided, don't ya think?


A civilian with a weapon (gun, knife, club, even a rock) in his/her hand is no longer an INNOCENT civilian. Common sense tells you not to throw rocks at dudes with automatic rifles! And yes, there are times when a populace en masse can be considered "hostile", witness a few cities in Iraq where they're shooting at us daily. Those assholes should be snuffed out. But to say that because of compulsory military service in Israel that practically everyone is a legitimate target is akin to saying that the World Trade Center was a military target because some people in there were either veterans or National Guard members.  

Is attacking a military target terrorism?

Personally I think the word Terrorism is way over used.

The Palestinians people who go out and blow themselves up in public are enemy combatants

Agreed.

I have  talked to actual palestinians. At one time in my life I knew a jewish girl who joined the IDF whos best drinking buddy was a palestinian.Striking a military target is legitimate. We may not like it but thats the rules. I played by those rules when I served.

hamzahsw99,

You served in the IDF?

Oh no I did not mean to sound as if I did. I served in the USMC