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Posted: 4/29/2001 8:24:46 PM EDT
...and she doesn't want to let the kids do any shooting at the range, even though the 4yo figured out how to get into the gun cabinet. Man, what's a guy to do to convince his one-and-only that knowledge is better than ignorance, that once a kid shows interest, it's time to let them see what it's all about....and that I'm trying to possibly save the kids life?!?!?!? ARRRGGGGHHHH!!!! Cntr
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 8:31:11 PM EDT
Educate your fiance first, if your going to become a ready made father, then you will have to make major adjustments. If you get her on your side, then the education of the kids will be no problem. They are at a perfect age to be taught properly all aspect of gun safety, use and eventual ownership.
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 9:11:08 PM EDT
i agree also that educating your fiance first is the best way. if their that cirious and that young let them help clean them no harm in that. a few extra hands are always welcome come cleaning time. It also helps get rid of the curiosity bug if she is refering to gun saftey ie, ( eddie eagle and look dont touch tell an adult) shes all wet. i suggest you get hold of some nra eddy eagle gun safty materials and show her exactly what you want to teach them
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 9:20:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2001 9:20:12 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
First off I am assuming a couple of things since your post was not filled with information. If they are her kids then you have nothing to say about it at all period. They are owned by her and thier father and all decisions are made by them. If you can not deal with this fact then your marriage has failed already. You are not their father and are just an interloper. I started my daughter at 3 yrs old. Now if I was not at home with her and her step dad did not like that then tough shit. I am the father I make the decisions. Just reverse your position and see how you would like it as the father if the step dad did things against your will.
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 9:24:05 PM EDT
I agree too. I would try to get her familar with shooting sports and how is can be safe and fun. Then she will be more willing to let her little babies go out and experience it. If the kids don't like to do it after they try it then at least they have made their own opinion.
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 9:51:46 PM EDT
Dave, Absolutey they're her kids. But, the biggest problem we have is the fact that we live together(wedding's in Oct), and all my stuff's here, including guns. When the kids are showing interest and finding their way into the cabinet, what other way is there to be safe other than to teach them? If there father had been involved in their upbringing in any other way than bringing home part of a paycheck, I wouldn't even consider doing anything without consulting with him first. As the situation sits, he isn't an issue. So, do I teach them, or spend the next fifteen years hiding my collection(impossible)? They live with me and their mom. They see the father on occasion, but their home is here. Anyway, what can I do to try to show her that children are never too young to learn how to be safe when it comes to firearms?
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 10:21:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2001 10:21:04 PM EDT by ARMALITE-FAN]
I have a 4&6 year old.There ot to young.We dont go to the range yet.They do however get to look and handle(closely supervised)any time they want to.If they begin to do something unsafe back to the gunroom they go.You would be amazed at how quik they pick up on something.They now know if they start to do something wrong its over.Me and my wife have discussed this and she did not agree with me at first.She said that they would grab a gun even if I wasnt around.After a year of showing and teaching we did a test.I took a rifle that I have no ammo for and removed the bolt.I left it in the corner of the family room.Did they notice it shure they did.they told mom that I left a gun out and I should put it away!I repeated this 3 or 4 times with the same results.Do I now leave loaded or unloaded guns laying around.Hell no,I live by the same word I'm teaching my kids.Responsability.There never too young to start teaching.Man I'm proud of my kids.
Link Posted: 4/29/2001 10:39:21 PM EDT
Cntrofmss - That's a Hard Road to go down - [:(] Been there. You and your lady need to hash it out- You two need to agree 100% about how the kids are brought up! Good Luck [:\]
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 12:13:15 AM EDT
Cntrofmss: If you need a good place to take the young ones to shoot try www.caswells.com or call at 480-497-5141.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 12:15:22 AM EDT
In the mean time, it might be worth it to find a better lock for the gun cabinet.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 3:00:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By David M: In the mean time, it might be worth it to find a better lock for the gun cabinet.
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Or a real safe instead of a cabinet.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 4:21:58 AM EDT
Start out with "cleaning" (no solvents) and let them help. Involve mom, especially. Take her to a club meeting and the range. Once she see's that it's not like TV, she'll be more open. Get an Eddie Eagle tape. The message is prety basic safety, doesn't involve handling or shooting, has no "guns are good" or "guns are bad" message of any sort. Available pretty cheap from the NRA. [url]http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/[/url] or [url]http://store.nrahq.org/nra/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=108[/url] or [url]http://store.nrahq.org/nra/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=224[/url] HTH, Norm
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 4:34:26 AM EDT
I've been at the range with a 6 year old shooting handguns. He did fine. Are they too young to teach about strangers? Fire? Other potential hazards?
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 5:43:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 6:38:08 AM EDT
I agree with David and the Beekeeper. They are her kids and will always be. They won't ever be truly "yours". Whenever you 2 disagree on them they will suddenly become "hers" even if you adopt them. Don't like that? Nows your chance to move on. Oh, and Dad will show up at the most inopportune moments too. Too bad you're living with her, if you want to leave it will be that much harder.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 6:38:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsRule: Cntrofmss - That's a Hard Road to go down - [:(] Been there. You and your lady need to hash it out- You two need to agree 100% about how the kids are brought up! Good Luck [:\]
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Amen.....Amen and.... AMEN! Been there.......got the T-shirt....heck I even wrote a book about it. In my case though my fiance knew what a gun loving freak I was and that any child of hers/ours would be a shooter by the time they were 6. Hash things out before you get any farther but make sure you do this with the wisdom of Solomon, and love for what you beleive and for your fiance and her kids. This is the only way grasshopper.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 6:43:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garmentless: I agree with David and the Beekeeper. They are her kids and will always be. They won't ever be truly "yours". Whenever you 2 disagree on them they will suddenly become "hers" even if you adopt them. .
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Must agree that there is truth and wisdom in this statement as well. Many times I accuse my wife of wanting me to be "Dad" until I upset junior then all of a sudden it is profoundly clear that he is not mine. Oh..........now I love him as best I can and I teach him the things he needs to know. Just don't forget that there are some boundaries that you will never breach. You either run or you stand your ground and take the good with the bad. Beleive me...............there will be both. Hang tough and keep on shooting!
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:23:28 AM EDT
My four year old got his first air rifle last Christmas. My wife was opposed to it at first, and her family still is. The fact of the matter remains: there are and always will be guns in my house, and just telling a child to never touch them simply will not work. The children will have friends, and maybe the friends' parents will have guns in the house. (this is a whole other story, more on that later) Keeping a child ignorant is one of the worst and most dangerous things you could do. Their unsatisfied curiosity will drive them into a potentially lethal situation. I agree that your first course of action is to put your fiance at ease with some range time, during which you can demonstrate your knowlege and safe handling policies.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:51:36 AM EDT
I'm talking from experience here, Cntrofmss ...... >>Absolutey they're her kids.<< And not yours. You LEGALLY have no say in their upbringing, unless you adopt- and that takes at least her consent. >>But, the biggest problem we have is the fact that we live together(wedding's in Oct), and all my stuff's here, including guns. << And she has shown that she is anti-gun. Otherwise, she would have had no problem with you, the guns and the kids all together. NOTE: This is the tip of the iceberg.... whatever disagreements you both might have before marriage- and in this case, this will prove to be a very deep philosophical one- _will_ get worse exponentially. May you not sit someplace houseless, moneyless- and gunless someday, because you decided to marry somebody who was wrong for you. You could lose everything you own, as a consequence of your wishful thinking. Marrying somebody in the hope that "well, I can change this person" is a recipe for disaster. Chances are, she is thinking the same thing about you- where will that lead?..... Some people don't like guns. Period. I stay away from such people, if I can help it. I sure won't give them legal control over my finances, property and freedom. >>When the kids are showing interest and finding their way into the cabinet, what other way is there to be safe other than to teach them?<< If you do so without her consent, you are committing a crime. >>If there father had been involved in their upbringing in any other way than bringing home part of a paycheck, << That's better than a lot of absentee fathers do, let me assure you. Still, it's none of your business, legally, and morally. >>I wouldn't even consider doing anything without consulting with him first. As the situation sits, he isn't an issue.<< Not yet. Remember, anything can and does happen in a marriage- why start it with one hand already tied behind your back? >>So, do I teach them, or spend the next fifteen years hiding my collection(impossible)? They live with me and their mom. They see the father on occasion, but their home is here. Their home is where their mother- or father- is. You have no rights in this situation, esp. in front of a judge. >>Anyway, what can I do to try to show her that children are never too young to learn how to be safe when it comes to firearms?<< Nothing. Pack up and move out. These are not your children. Try to convert another anti-gunner, but at the range, not the altar.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:03:23 AM EDT
They are HER kids, and if she's anti-gun, you're SCREWED. You have no rights here, which is unfortunate. My son rec'd his first marksmanship award with a .22 when he was 4. He learned to shoot before he could tie his shoes, and at age 6, shoots a 6mm Rem. with no problems. Good luck dude, it sound like a marriage made in purgatory....................
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:03:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:03:42 AM EDT
Devil's advocate, here.... What are you doing hanging with a moderate ANTI chick?? You're thinking with the wrong head. granted, you MAY be able to "educate" her, but maybe you won't. And if you can't, I strongly suggest you MOVE ON. And you ABSOLUTELY MUST settle this BEFORE you get married. Even the Bible says a contentious wife is like a constant dripping. In modern parlance, that means like a Chinese water torture. Take a cold shower, and start thinking with that lump on top of your sholders. Sheesh.....
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:20:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:32:11 AM EDT
Well, I can't say much with regards to what you should or shouldn't be able to do with your future wife's children. I can tell you however things work in my house. I have a daughter who will be four in August. She really enjoys helping me clean guns. I usually just give her a wet rag and let her clean one that Im finished with and then just go back over it when she is finished. Sometimes she begs me to get them out so we can clean them. She also loves to help me reload, but because of the potential for lead or chemical poisoning for a child that young I have worked out a way to let her "help" without handling anything that could be dangerous to her. I have a few finished rounds that I thoroughly cleaned along with some new brass and a few FMJ bullets that I keep in a little box that is her reloading box. She sits in the floor behind me (to shield her from any possibility of a crushed primer or other accident) and plays with her own reloading stuff. I even flared a few cases a little so that she could stick the bullets in. I also let her look at the guns whenever she wants, all she has to do is ask and I get them out for her. Anyways, a few weeks ago I was getting ready to go shoot for a while and I was gathering everything I was taking by the front door. She usually helps me do this also by carrying little bags and targets and stuff to the door for me. As I was putting all of my stuff in the car she was standing at the door asking me to tie her shoes because she had decided that she was going with me. I was a little apprehensive at first because she still is a little young but she is much more mature for her age than other kids her age, so I decided to let her go. We got to the place where I go shooting and I made here put on her little glasses and a pair of my earmuffs which fit rather well. Then I loaded up the 10/22 and made her stand behind me while I shot a couple of times to show her that it was loud but not harmful. She was really excited about getting to shoot and I helped her to set up a target to shoot at.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:33:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2001 8:35:53 AM EDT by Ponyboy]
The 10/22 is the smallest gun I own but it was still much to large for her. I sat down on the ground indian style and had her sit in my lap. She had to put the stock under her arm and her offhand barely went in front of the receiver. I helped her hold the gun and kind of "aimed from the hip" at the target about 25' away. Then she pulled the trigger with two fingers and I walked the shots onto the middle of the target. After each mag she wanted to go inspect the "little holes" she was making in the target and backing. After three magazines of this she spotted pieces of a cinder block I had been shooting at the time before and said she wanted to shoot one of the "rocks". I set up a big piece about 50' away so that a riccochet was less likely and let her start firing. After about 8rds I finally walked one directly in the center cinder. The next one missed and the last round made it crumble. She wanted to go look at it and see how she "broke the rock". After that she was hungry and wanted to leave so we packed everything up. I didn't get much shooting done (about half a 10rd mag), but it was probably the most fun Ive ever had shooting. Just seeing her face as she unloaded the mag as fast as she could pull the trigger, which wasn't very fast, made it all worth it. She couldnt wait to tell everyone that she got to shoot my dady's gun. This has been my experience to date with children and guns. Not every child will be the same, but when they are ready to go then they are ready to go and only a parent will be able to decide when that time is. Hope this helps someone out there with questions. Oh, and the next day she told me she wanted a guns just like mine, except she wanted pink. Michael
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 1:45:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2001 1:46:23 PM EDT by Finnbear]
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: The 10/22 is the smallest gun I own but it was still much to large for her. Oh, and the next day she told me she wanted a guns just like mine, except she wanted pink. Michael
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I saw just the gun for her at a gun show recently. There is a .22 single shot bolt action just for kids called a "Chipmunk". It has a downsized stock for little shooters and can be had with a PINK laminated wood stock. They can be bought for under $150 if you look around. I just ordered one with a laminated camo stock that I'm giving my 7yr old for his 8th birthday. Think of it as an investment in your RKBA future. Finnbear out
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 1:58:45 PM EDT
My dad bought me my fist .22. 10/22 with a laminated stock and a 6X scope when I was 9 years old. If you educate the kids now they will be more responsible later. It's like the case where kids under strict parenting go wild when they grow up and the kids who were exposed to things at younger ages know what the outcomes are to stupidity.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 2:08:01 PM EDT
Finnbear, thanks for the tip. Truthfully I hadn't thought about getting her a rifle yet, but as much as she liked it I guess I had better start. Ill look into a chipmunk. Thanks again. Michael
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 2:12:17 PM EDT
Wow, you may wish to get out. Everyone is suggesting that, of course. But of course I understand that you may not want to get out. While fiance, you can't do a whole lot, but later you might be able to. I would start with the simple stuff first. Ask the future Mrs. Cntrofmss what she would deem acceptable. Is it to wait until the youngest is 6? Or perhaps it is something else? Setting down a schedule for rites of passage may not be all that bad. In the Jr. NRA class that my son attends, we have a 6 year old girl shooting a BB gun. Perhaps your fiance would allow that? Perhaps she would allow them to go to the range and not shoot a few times, and then you can ask for a chance to shoot one "reactive" type target with a .22 like a Ruger 10/22 or similar that you might have. Make sure that she goes along, and agrees. Also note that if you go to any official range, this will ease the minds of the ladies like your fiance. Especially if there are rangemasters on the line. My son is catching up to me and my shooting skills. I'm gonna have to go to a true class soon enough, just to keep ahead of this guy. He's been shooting for about 2 years (8 now), and he's doing wonderful. Wife wasn't exactly pleased the first time I let him shoot ("Well hon, we were at the range, and the owner suggested I let the little guy shoot, and well, he liked it"). Now, 2 years later, she likes the fact that we can drag him out to the range, and we don't have to hide the stuff from him. He's safer than she is, and that is saying a lot!
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 3:22:41 PM EDT
I have'nt read all the replys but I have detected some idiotic thoughts. 1."they are not your kids so you have no say" They live in your house and under your protection and you set the rules. 2. It is you and your SO responsibility to protect your kids by educating them in the "WAYS OF THE GUN". If your SO can not see the wisdom in learning the ways of the gun and teaching children gun saftey then DUMP THE IDIOT!
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 3:27:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARMALITE FAN: I have a 4&6 year old.There ot to young.We dont go to the range yet.They do however get to look and handle(closely supervised)any time they want to.If they begin to do something unsafe back to the gunroom they go.You would be amazed at how quik they pick up on something.They now know if they start to do something wrong its over.Me and my wife have discussed this and she did not agree with me at first.She said that they would grab a gun even if I wasnt around.After a year of showing and teaching we did a test.I took a rifle that I have no ammo for and removed the bolt.I left it in the corner of the family room.Did they notice it shure they did.they told mom that I left a gun out and I should put it away!I repeated this 3 or 4 times with the same results.Do I now leave loaded or unloaded guns laying around.Hell no,I live by the same word I'm teaching my kids.Responsability.There never too young to start teaching.Man I'm proud of my kids.
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Exactly [beer] Email me for a phone #. She can Ask my 3&5 year old Girls Directly. They will tell her Bluntly.!!!!! They do not Have any curiosity. Sneaking into the GUNSAFE (not cabinet) does not even enter their thought process. They have been raised differently than most I guess. What's the difference between teaching you kid not to run with a sharp object like a pencil. Or not drinking things under the sink. The Key here is teach them. Show them the Safety rules first. But if they are not your kids... And she doesn't want you to teach them about Being safe then you are fighting a losing battle. Ask her, What about if they go somewhere and someone finds a gun. do You want you kid to be the one who : a, picks up the gun and accidentally shoots it. b, goes and gets an adult and tells every one else to stay away from it. c, is on the receiving end of some other stupid kids bullet. My kids will hopefully fall into the B category. I hope hers will be able to as well. Seriously, Delmarksman.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 3:50:48 PM EDT
This is not about guns. When a man chooses a mate he want's her to stay the same and never change. When a woman chooses a man she sees a block of clay that she can mold into something more presentable from her viewpoint. (Kiss your guns goodbye or live in HELL).
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 6:44:10 PM EDT
Devil's advocate, here.... What are you doing hanging with a moderate ANTI chick?? You're thinking with the wrong head. granted, you MAY be able to "educate" her, but maybe you won't. And if you can't, I strongly suggest you MOVE ON. And you ABSOLUTELY MUST settle this BEFORE you get married. Even the Bible says a contentious wife is like a constant dripping. In modern parlance, that means like a Chinese water torture. Take a cold shower, and start thinking with that lump on top of your sholders. Sheesh.....
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Well, Garandman, I think we found something to agree on here. Not a bad advocate. Want a job? The Devil [;)]
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:43:18 PM EDT
not so, my sons three, as soon as he would listen to me at the range and keep his eyes and ears on my wife did'nt have a problem. her words "if were going to have guns in the house he'd better know how to use them." she meant to be safe.
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 7:56:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2001 8:06:31 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
Well unless his parental rights have been legally removed by the court then the father is very much in the picture. Fast forward a coupla years. Kid in school draws a picture of me and step dad with gun shooting bunnies. Kid gets kicked out of school and your then wife won't support you and you gotta fold like a wet noodle that you are in front of principal. Marying poeple from other culters is asking for disaster. Find a girl who comes from a gun culture. The one you have now will expect you to check your testicals at the door every time you come home. Next time don't move in and play house when children are involved and likely to bond with yet another man. Thier dad got taken away, now thier step dad is so unsure of himself and his relationship that he is seeking advice from strangers on the internet. So now these kids are going to loose another dad. It's not gonna work unless you have spinal replacement surgery and substitute marshmellow for bone. Now onto the woman. She is repeating past history. She picked a bum but she loved him and made two babies with him just knowing that she could change him for her vision of what is better. Now she picks you, while I doubt you are a bum she already is setting plans to changing you into what here vision is. Men are not very good at adapting. She will never understand the appeal of shooting and owning firearms any more than you will ever understand how anyone could live without them. Go find someone compatable
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 8:04:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2001 8:05:46 PM EDT by Finnbear]
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Finnbear, thanks for the tip. Truthfully I hadn't thought about getting her a rifle yet, but as much as she liked it I guess I had better start. Ill look into a chipmunk. Thanks again. Michael
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Here is a link to their website. It does not show the pink model but I have seen them at gun shows. [url]http://www.chipmunkrifle.com/[/url] Finnbear out
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 9:50:05 PM EDT
First of all, thank you all for your frank and honest opinions. I have noticed that there are an awful lot of folks under the impression that my wife-to-be is an anti. She most definitely is not, but her ex-hubby is. She is scared that by taking them to the range, he will run to court to claim that she is exposing them to a "hazardous situation," and she may lose custody. While I doubt that could ever happen, their divorce was in California, their father lives in CA, and over there, as we all know, anything can happen when it's gun related. As for the gunsafe vs. gun cabinet debate, I'm all for the gunsafe. It's just a matter of time and money until we can upgrade. In the meantime, we'll use what we got, and do our best until we can save enough to get what we want. I have to admit, this whole "instant family" thing kinda came on quick. It was part of the package, and it really is for the best. I've known this woman damn near my entire life, and there are very, very few issues that we disagree on. It just happens that her kids and guns is one of them. The relationship is strong, and won't fall apart under this kind of disagreement. It's just very helpful to hear from other people that have been in similar situations and how they resolved their problems. I'm not so egotistical that I won't try to find knowledge wherever I can, even when I might appear foolish or "spineless." You people and your life experiences are part of the great fountain of knowledge that I like to drink from every now and then, and I'm grateful that there exists a forum that will facilitate that. Thank you! Cntr
Link Posted: 4/30/2001 10:26:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garmentless: I agree with David and the Beekeeper. They are her kids and will always be. They won't ever be truly "yours".
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If you win their hearts their minds will follow! The person living with the child has the most influence on the child.. The parent living apart has very little influence on the child.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 7:48:54 PM EDT
I have noticed that there are an awful lot of folks under the impression that my wife-to-be is an anti. She most definitely is not, but her ex-hubby is. She is scared that by taking them to the range, he will run to court to claim that she is exposing them to a "hazardous situation," and she may lose custody. While I doubt that could ever happen, their divorce was in California, their father lives in CA, and over there, as we all know, anything can happen when it's gun related.
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Hey, Cntofmss, glad to hear that the bride to be doesn't have an issue with your guns, or otherwise it would never work unless you wimped out big time. Since the kids are living with her in AZ, I presume that she has legal custody. To take the kids from CA to AZ legally, she would have had to have gotten the approval of a PRK court. Jurisdiction would have therefore transferred to AZ. I don't think an AZ court would have a problem with you teaching the kids to shoot. So, who cares what her asshole anti ex in PRK thinks? Now, I'm not an expert in "family law", so maybe I could be wrong, but it's logical...Any esquiremofos out there who are experts in family law have anything authoritative to contribute here?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:03:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 4:31:11 PM EDT
Well, it seems a chat with her mom might've helped. Her mother is very pro-gun and advised her of the exact same things I had told her time and time again. She told me this with a bewildered look on her face, as if she hadn't ever really thought about when to teach her kids gun safety. You guys are helping too. She and I don't disagree much on the gun issue, unless it involves her kids. That's what I meant by "kids and guns"...maybe "kids WITH guns" might've been more appropriate. Next chance we get to go to the range, we'll bring the kids and see how it goes there. Thanks a lot guys! Any other reccomendations? Believe me, every new perspective helps!
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:28:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2001 5:27:33 PM EDT by oldeschool]
Any other reccomendations? Believe me, every new perspective helps!
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Well, you probably already thought of this, but ease them into it. .22LR's only. No 12 gages, M1's, FAL's, full auto AR's, etc. Water filled plastic milk containers, cans, or bottles if your range allows. Make it fun. Good luck.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:56:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:59:31 PM EDT
i am glad she started to see it yore way, like everyone else says (about how to teach them) start simple a 22 is how i started, and i think it was the wisest way, but i also grew out of it FAST. now i am here talking to you guys, and own an ar15 with all the bells and whistles. i love yous guys.........and this place rocks.
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