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Posted: 6/7/2003 8:47:44 AM EDT
That just proves the point that wild full auto fire is just not effective. If you watch the iraq war coverage you will notice that the U.S soilders just didn't fire from the hip(rambo style) and act like wild animals. Its a good thing those two jerks were not well trained and not very good shots. any well trained (swat or military)person will not be scared after the first automatic fire burst.The police there did a great job with what they had. The swat team did a good job after they got there also. Those two dopes could have killed all the cops there if they were smart. BUT THANK GOD THEY WERE BOTH REALLY DUMB. Question: why did the gun store owner not go over there and give them a bolt rifle. They could have shot the dudes from 200 plus yards away and end of story. Maybe the gun store was to far away. or maybe the 10 day waiting period. This year in california one of the congress women said "lets take the guns away from the police and make them peace officers" She didn't watch the tapes I guess.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:03:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By valblade: . This year in california one of the congress women said "lets take the guns away from the police and make them peace officers" She didn't watch the tapes I guess.
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That sounds like many Arfcommers. [rolleyes] CRC
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:05:52 AM EDT
Until I had time to talk to a buddy who rolled on that I thought B&B had supplied something stronger than ARs, like M1As but apparently not. Heavier bolt guns would hyave been my choice. But I bet most gun stores don't have bolt guns in 300 Mag or stouter sitting around with sighted in scoped on them. A 200 yd shot would have been almost impossible to obtain. These guys were moving fairly quickly through an urban area. You justr don't get many 200 yd possibilities except right down the middle of the street. You really need to see the location to get a good idea on how nasty it was. If these guys had stood still or styed in the same general place it would have been much more convenient to stop them.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:33:16 AM EDT
valblade, Very good observations / analysis. The only issue with taking any gun off the shelf and using it in that situation is zero and familiarization. Is the gun zeroed in? And does the shooter know how to use it? The best way (obviously) to survive a situation like that is to be prepared. You need training and all the equipment needed for survival to be readily available. Just my .02 worth. Mike
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 1:06:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MAP: valblade, Very good observations / analysis. The only issue with taking any gun off the shelf and using it in that situation is zero and familiarization. Is the gun zeroed in? And does the shooter know how to use it? The best way (obviously) to survive a situation like that is to be prepared. You need training and all the equipment needed for survival to be readily available. Just my .02 worth. Mike
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IMO, you're absolutely right. The only solution is training, preparation & having the proper equipment available when & where it's needed. When you have a mayor/council/police department which is rabidly anti-gun, they do not know or care what the officers in the field need. Their answer is always: "Call SWAT, that's what we spend all that money for." Well, when SWAT can't get there soon enough, the result is what happened in N. Hollywood: Officers trying to deal with a situation without proper equipment. Many/most agencies in the US had a rude awakening after the Columbine shooting, when they realized that SWAT can't get to active shooter incidents fast enough to prevent major loss of life. Since that time, a LOT of agencies (but by no means ALL) have implemented training so that patrol officers know how to deal with active shooter incidents until the heavy weapons guys arrive. But all the training will not help unless you have the tools to do the job. In a situation like N. Hollywood, handguns & shotguns are basically useless. You need rifles capable of penetrating body armor, & officers capable of using them properly. LAPD made a big publicity stunt out of obtaining, IIRC, 600 mil-surplus M-16A1s, & issuing them to supervisors only, which means of course, that the rifles will probably not be where they are really needed until too late. More & more agencies are issuing/allowing patrol rifles for their road officers for this reason. Our county is too small to field a tactical team, & the pols will not give us the money to buy rifles, so most of our guys have bought or are saving up to buy, their own ARs or Mini-14s. I am glad to help them with training & advice, & the departments do what they can to furnish ammo & training time. We are a minimum of 60-90 minutes from being able to have a tac team respond from a neighboring county (at best), so our major worry is a school shooting, armed robbery gone bad, disgruntled employee, etc. When/if we have a situation like Columbine/Paducah/Jonesboro/N. Hollywood, THEN maybe we'll get what we need to do our job.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:13:00 PM EDT
since the whole thing only lasted 44 minutes I guess the swat team did get there very quickly. I still think it would have been great if a gun store owner would have had his own personal hunting rifle down there and was able to waste those turkeys. Gun stores where I live keep a ar-15 loaded and ready behind the counter and have a few scoped rifles ready to go. But your right what would have happened if the bushmaster postban rifle didn't have its zero and a cop hit the wrong target. remember when they had the windage problem. 17 clicks right or left. that would have messed up the shot. In my colt manual it says the rifle is zeroed from the factory. That a joke. I have always had to adjust the front and back sight.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:20:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CRC: That sounds like many Arfcommers. [rolleyes] CRC
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[s]WTF does th...[/s] [i]sigh[/i]
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