So, I would like to ask, and this is a sincere question. [i]But what made Jesus so radical?[/i]

I mean, of prophets and holy men there were no shortage back then. They were probably a dime a dozen. And here comes this homeless, itinerant carpenter with no education, and a handful of unkempt men and women. He lived only 33 years - died younger than me now. Yet, he became the foundation for the largest faith in the world today. What set him apart?

Sure, some would say because he was the son of God. I would like a more satisfying answer than that. People can say Mohammed was the son of God. Or whoever.

I don't think anyone (or at least, any Christian) will argue with you that Jesus was a radical in that sense.

But somewhere along the line you said something to the effect of turning over the world's value system, which places family first.  That's definitely not true.

He shifts the world's value system that you describe.  The world can only teach you about worldly things.  God and God alone can teach you the truth of sprititual things.  If the world says "family first, then others" and Jesus said "God first, then family, then others" all he's really saying is that spritual concerns trump worldly ones.  If you take the spiritual out of Jesus's teachings, you get the conservative viewpoint of the world:  family first, then others, etc.

Now, I would argue that the world's values teach that personal worldly prosperity and happiness comes first, then family, then others.  If that is the case, then I'd agree that Jesus's teachings shake things up a bit, since personal prosperity is not a priority at all compared to God's Will and the commands to love your family and your neighbors.

Ahhhh, you're getting closer.

The New Testament book of Revelation highlights the folly of attempting to use God for selfish purposes. Some people call Revelation "the anti-empire book."

In Revelation we find the apostle John in exile critiquing the empire, which is Rome. As the world's only 'superpower,' Rome has taken God from the pedestal and put the empire in His place.

As far as government is concerned, Jesus Christ taught to respect authority and "give unto Ceasar.." but at the same time, Jesus was all about establishing justice and God's law on earth. The main people Jesus confronted were the Pharisees, as they were doing the most evil and were the most destructive to the people.

The only questions you have have to answer are:

Who do you think today's [url=http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm]"Roman Empire"[/url] is?

Who do you think today's [url=http://www.whtt.org/pharisee.htm]"Pharisees"[/url] are?

WWJD?  [:D]

Okay. Let me give you a practical situation. Suppose you love your father and mother and want to make them happy. Natural, right? But suppose your father and mother swindled some money from someone, and you found out about it. Stealing is wrong. So, what do you do? Do you turn them in and return the money? Or you keep quiet and remain loyal to them?

That's why the reward for doing the right thing is so great, it isn't always the easy thing to do. Of course we can't always judge, because what if the family needed the $$$ to feed the kids, would that be justified? Or are they just stealing to get a big-screen TV.. etc..? But to answer your question and to reiterate what someone stated earlier, GOD comes first, then Family, society, etc... (Actually doing what GOD wants done is always the most beneficial to Family, society, etc.. whether it's clear at the time or not.)

I don't think the Roman govt then had any pretenses about being a "godly" government. God was never on its pedestal to be replaced by "empire".




I have to politely disagree with you here. Jesus didn't need to establish God's law here on earth. There were Moses, Abraham, and all of the Old Testament prophets who tried to do that.



How were the Pharisees destructive to the Israelites? They were the spiritual leaders, but did not kill anyone, I don't believe.

By killing, raping, stealing, and enslaving people they were going against God's law and therefore putting themselves above God, whether they explicity stated it or not.





"I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it!"(Matthew 5:17)





One example: What were they doing in the temple that caused Jesus to go off on them? Were they doing something benificial to the people?

Second example: You mention "Moses, Abraham, and all of the Old Testament prophets" who tried to establish God's law. Were they successful; did they fail? Was someone corrupting the message and putting undue hardship on the people?

[edited to fix quotes, but they're [i]still[/i] messed up! aargh..]

Well, that about does it for me. Thanks to all those who posted - I appreciate the comments. This being an internet discussion board, I just wanted to get a variety of ideas about the subject.

And to those who were hostile - no hard feelings.

Jesus Christ descended into Hell, with the keys, and freed the captives who accepted His Gospel....

I still think Jesus was in it for the chicks.

So how do you get anarchy out of that?  Seems more like those verses illustrate the amazing fact of God's love for us, and how we should devote ourselves to Him.  Anarchy?  Try Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV), for example:  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  [b]I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teachers others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.[/b]"

Why didn't you continue on to the next two verses?  Trolling?

Matthew 9:12,13 (NIV) says:

Ahh, you reveal yourself.  In the words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 7:6 (NIV)

I won't waste any more time with you, troll.  Reap what you sow.

You were pretty merciful like Jesus, weren't you? [:D]

I hope you feel good about yourself, now. You needed it, I'm sure.

I'm suprised no one has said this.  It all comes down to faith.  There isn't a person on earth that can't give me hard scientific facts to prove that god exists.  It's all faith.  Christians have faith in Jesus dying for their sins and Muslims have faith that god gave Muhammad some extra stuff (I don't know much about Islam, but I think thats a lot of it).  Also this religion topic is regional.  If you grow up in an Islamic country, town, and family, than your moral foundation will most likely be that of Islamic fundimentals.  That being said I think it's pretty pointless to argue.  Also, there is just no way to answer a questions like these:  Why does god allow pain and suffering on earth?  Why would god create us in the first place?  Why would god send his so-called son to earth to die a horrible death? Couldn't he just wave his hand or something and we all be saved and stuff?

But there are also questions on the other end of the spectrum you have to waunder about.  How was the universe created?  Sure it could have started as a "Big Bang", but who put the starting atom and the energy for that atom to split or do whatever it did?  I think about that and questions like it and it gives all the proof I need to know that god exists.  But that doesn't answer the question of religion does it?

Religion is based on faith. Period.

Holy crap (no pun intended)... a Jesus thread is gonna get locked!

kabaldude....maybe naked_gunman had a bad day and his temper got the best of him.  Here is a little hint: even the most faithful and obedient Christians lose thier temper sometimes.  Nobody is perfect...."all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".  Thank God for Grace!  Christianity is a journey, a learning curve, that never ends and can never be perfectly fulfilled in the flesh on account of our human weakness and failings.  It doesn't excuse the rude factor, I am simply pointing out that you have no business throwing the "gee, some Christian you are" flag up.  It doesn't apply exclusively, the "human being" flag has to fly right alongside.  So throw down your "you is a crummy Christian" gun, and bring your "didn't yo mamma teach you any manners?" gun to bear instead.

clean_cut, as far as your point about Jesus hanging out with strippers and IRS agents.  Yes, he certainly did.  These were the people who he needed to reach!  

As far as Jesus being an anarchist?  No.  Because he is God the Son, and as the Bible teaches "a house divided against itself cannot stand".  Since Jesus was God, and "the Word was God", and the Word also teaches us that government, law, and order are ordained by God, along with taxes ("render unto Caeser what is Caeser's"), then certainly Jesus could not have been an anarchist.  But he certainly was a radical conservative.  I mean, he taught that you should obey the law of the land, but that everyone should be free to observe religion and faith God's way rather than the teachings of men.  And as we all know, the Lord speaks to us all, not just through the Word, and in that time from Christ himself, but also in our hearts, especially in matters such as right and wrong, what our life's work is to be, and how best to follow and serve Him.  This requires an immense amount of personal freedom in society.  Jesus essentially was practicing what would later be enumerated in the founding of America.....obedience to the law of the land, while exercising a level of personal freedom in areas such as travel and worship that probably truly frightened a lot of people.

All the above can be backed up by Scripture, although I do not have exact quotes with me at this time.  If you need them perhaps another brother can help out.  Hope that answers your question.  

Clean_cut,

I am really suprised no one else gave you this one...


   Hbr 13:17   Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.  

and this


   Rom 13:1   Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.  
   
   Rom 13:2   Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.  
   
   Rom 13:3   For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:  
   
   Rom 13:4   For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.  
   
   Rom 13:5   Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.  
   
   Rom 13:6   For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.  
   
   Rom 13:7   Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.  


pat

And is the only clean one of the bunch and advicates lving the good life?
Sounds like my life.

Good job cleancut!  You took the high road, even showing forgiveness to those who called you asshole and other names for merely posting scripture verbatim!!!

Those religious types who post stuff like "You are an asshole, don't fuck with my God, I'm a Christian!"  well, they scare me!

Good show!


Balming

Sorry to have stepped out for a while clean_cut, but I had to sleep. [:D]

You asked a couple of important questions while I was sawing logs.



Well, first of all, what makes you think Jesus was "uneducated"?  He could obviously read and write and knew the scriptures.  Most young Jewish boys were educated during these times, at least to that extent.

But "What set him apart?".  What set Him apart was that He was and is God.  Now you said, "Sure, some would say because he was the son of God. I would like a more satisfying answer than that. People can say Mohammed was the son of God. Or whoever."  That is the answer.  Others can [u]say[/u] they are God, but Jesus [u]was[/u] God.  And is God. (BTW, no one says that Mohammed was the son of god, not even muslims.)  That is why Jesus was and is unlike anyone else in history.  because He is God.

You also stated that Jesus didn't have much to say about the Roman government.  That is correct, He didn't.  The reason is that He knew that the government in power isn't nearly as important as our personal relationship with God. And you will notice that the Roman government is gone nowadays, but Christianity is still here.

Also Attman asked:



The Bible makes it clear that old testament believers offered animal sacrifices as only a symbol of things to come,  There was a great book written which I think is entitled, "The Tabernacle in the Wilderness; A Portrait of Christ".  It discusses how all of the animal sacrifices were done in anticipation to the coming of the Messiah.  Paul later pointed this out by saying, "The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin.  Only the blood of the perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ."

So, old testament believers were saved the same as you and me.  They had faith and God counted it as righteousness.   Jesus's blood washed away their sin just like yours and mine.

please don't feed the[:K]

I don't think he's a troll, pale_pony.  We're just having a pleasant discussion.

By deffinition, it would seem that at least the Pharasees(sp?) were also a form of government over the Jewish people. The best example that I can think of would be our modern day local government and federal government.

I'm a Christian.

I'm also not yet perfect. So I can understand making daily mistakes and not understanding everything, or being able to explain everything to everybody.

This is PART of the reason why Jesus left us the Holy Spirit....

Acts 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
NIV

Acts 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to [red]the AR15.com discussion board.[/red]

Red edit is my words, but I think it's fitting. Flame me if you don't.

I think we as Christian need to be more mindful of HOW we share our faith with people who are asking questions of us. It's not for us to defend Jesus, His ministry or His lifestyle it is however for us to LOVE everybody ESPECIALLY our enemies and those that would come against us harshly, with the same love that Christ has shown us. It is most important to show love to the ones around us who are reaching out and asking questions. If these types of questions offend you, try remembering that no matter what you think you are or where you think you are in Christ, there was a time when you were lost and dead to Christ. He was merciful to you, share that mercy.

Luke 6:27-36
27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' do that.   34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' lend to `sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
NIV


2 Tim 4:1-5
4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-[red]with great patience and careful instruction.[/red] 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 [red]But you, keep your head in all situations,[/red] endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
NIV

Rom 14:12
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
NIV

I don't think I need to mention the verses about being judged by God for EVERY idle word that passes our lips......do I?

Matt 12:35-37
35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
NIV

Keeping the above scripture verses in mind, do you who claim to be Christians really think all the anger and namecalling is necessary.

I'm disturbed by this thread.

John 13:34-35
34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
NIV

bvmjethead said:



You're right on target on this one, old buddy.

I think that an electronic medium causes some folks to be a little ruder and more callous than they would be face to face.  Unfortunately, that includes some Christians.

I've always enjoyed this forum as I feel it sharpens the wit to debate and consider other's points of view.  And, like you, I consider this site an area where Christians can witness about their faith.  I try to never be rude to others when talking about any subject on this board.  But especially not when discussing matters of faith.

Don,

Especially with your sig line..........[:D]

Capt. Call could teach some of these folks some manners. [:D]

interesting takes.  all of it.  no stones to throw at anyone from me.  overall, to understand why jesus was here, who he actually is and who he was with at various times is a long term study to be sure!  my point is, you have to read the bible, ask god to help you understand it, ask someone who is a christian you trust for help in understanding it and grab onto who Christ is.  all the other issues begin to clear up.  its a heart issue and way of viewing the world, universe, life.  read the first of genesis, the story of the passover in exodus and then read the gospel of john.  what others say and do won't matter when its just you and Him. i wouldn't call him an anarchist but he was an illuminator - not in the enlightenment sense but as one who exposes our hearts and shows the truth in Himself.  that always causes change and change is one thing totalitarians and self serving types (be they in the gov't, business, or church) cannot stand.  the godly men who helped free us and form our nation were "rebels" in their own right but were submitted to God and under authority and accountability to Him and to each other.  i'm sure to get flamed for some of this but go ahead.  i enjoy the discussion!  

IBTL

On taxes:
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's..."

Doesn't sound very anti-government to me.

Alright, I apologize.  I read the next few posts and you seem to actually want a real discussion.  You seemed to be willfully misinterpreting the bible by selectively quoting.  Read any other religion thread on this site and you will see that most people doing that are obvious trolls who have no interest in serious discussion.  If you aren't a troll, that's great.

zonan says:



And thereby shows what it means to be a Christian.

Apologizing is rarely easy or enjoyable, but faith in Christ compels it.  In this case, I am glad I was wrong and that clean_cut seems to be seeking Truth.  The more in the kingdom, the merrier it will be, so I am always glad to learn that someone is a believer.

turn them in.  God's law comes first.  God's law says "do not steal."

but don't just turn them in willy-nilly.  talk to them first.  let them know what they are doing is an affront to God, to themselves, to the family, and to the victims.  let them know why you are going to turn them in, and offer for them to deal with it quietly first.  ask them to return the money, admit to the victims that they did, and to ask for forgiveness both from the people they stole from and from God.

that is how you would honor your father and mother in this situation, while still upholding God's demands.