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Posted: 6/5/2003 6:22:59 AM EDT
All I need to get my bike running again are some O-Rings and a little wrenching. Trouble is, none of the autoparts or hardware stores have O-Rings that are the right size. I heard that Loctite has a "Make your own O-Ring" kit. Has anyone ever used any of these? I don't even have the original O-Rings from my bike, so I'm getting pretty frustrated. The O-Rings aren't mentioned in the parts microfiche, so I'm not even sure what size I want. Should I take the part to my machinist buddy and have him measure it and figure out the O-Ring sizes from there or what? What can you tell me about O-Rings, esp. Locktite's kit? -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:57:56 PM EDT
btt for the night crew. Anyone? Anyone?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:08:23 PM EDT
we had one of those kits (or simillar types) in the shop where I worked... never needed it though... Harbor Freight, if you have one near you (or mail order) sells a kit of an assortment of O-rings. having an Idea of what size you need may help.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:08:49 PM EDT
Some good places to find O-rings would be a bearings and seal distributor. I needed a seal once that had about a 4" diameter, At my local bearings distributor they had a gauge that they measured my old o-ring with. You could probably get away with a sealer so long as it fits the application. If its for your carb you would need a seal that resisted gas. You'd need to be careful not to over-do it and put too much on....just enough for a good seal.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:23:31 PM EDT
Wait and get the right O ring. A good friend of mine had a 34ft Chris Craft twin engine IB cabin cruiser. A [b]VERY[/b] nice boat. He decided that he didn't want to spend the $6.00 for the 2 O ring seals going to the final drives since he could make his own for less than $1.00. His homemade rings didn't hold. He woke up one morning, looked out the window to where his boat should of been parked, and the only thing showing above the water was the antennas. Cost him over 2K to get her re-floated, and 14 years later, he still has the hull sitting in his shop yard waiting to be rebuilt. echo6
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:32:12 PM EDT
If the male part of the assembly can be hand carried I would take it to NAPA Auto Parts or Ace Hardware. They both have a good selection of O-rings. You basically need the to know the inside and outside diameter of the female and male parts to get the correct size, if both parts can be hand carried it should be no problem to match up the correct size otherwise, you might use a caliper to get these measurements.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:32:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 6:34:55 PM EDT by hanau]
take a o-ring that is to big and cut it in two,cut off enough that when the 2 ends meet they are the right size and super glue them together, disclaimer not responsible if you tear/blow something up if you use this suggestion!! also try a place that manily sell rubber iteams,look under rubber products in the yellow pages
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:40:30 PM EDT
We used the o-ring kit at work,..once. It did'nt hold up. Get the proper o-rings and save yourself time and money in the long run.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:52:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 9:48:33 PM EDT by Skibane]
Most hose and hydraulic supply houses have a large selection of O-rings. If you can't find 'em locally, [url=http://www.mcmaster.com]McMaster-Carr Supply Co.[/url] has bazillons of 'em, in a wide variety of materials. Fast service, and reasonable shipping, too.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:25:40 PM EDT
Make sure you measure the 'O' ring groove for depth and width. The rings come in several thicknesses not just diameter. If you have problems, aircraft use three common thicknesses and come in incremental sizes ordered by MS numbers off a size chart. Mcmaster carr is a good source too. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:32:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:43:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane: Most hose and hydraulic supply houses have a large selection of O-rings. If you can't find 'em locally, [url=http://www.mcmaster]McMaster-Carr Supply Co.[/url] has bazillons of 'em, in a wide variety of materials. Fast service, and reasonable shipping, too.
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THIS IS GOOD ADVICE. Skibane beat me to it. I purchase millions of dollars of production supplies each year. My engineering department uses Mcnasty Carp alot. If you strike out there, try "Fastenal" "my Dad" (rip) ..."Son, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right" good advice
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:55:48 PM EDT
You absolutely CANNOT fake an o-ring in any way shape or form. Nor can you re-seal a defective one or glue it together. An o-ring is NOT like a gasket. It works on a different principle. Using the pressure behind it to make the seal. Get the proper replacement parts from the dealer and save yourself some headaches. I was a bike mechanic for 18 years if it matters.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 8:08:10 PM EDT
Maybe the o ring chart at this site will help you. [url]http://www.oringswest.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:00:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: You absolutely CANNOT fake an o-ring in any way shape or form. Nor can you re-seal a defective one or glue it together. An o-ring is NOT like a gasket. It works on a different principle. Using the pressure behind it to make the seal. Get the proper replacement parts from the dealer and save yourself some headaches. I was a bike mechanic for 18 years if it matters.
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I worked in a bike shop for five years, since you have more experience than me maybe you can testify to my experience with Japanese bikes and O-Rings. 1) Japanese motorcycle manufacturers make a point of producing O-Rings that are odd ball sizes and thicknesses, that you can only get from the manufacturer. 2) Went through this before with an '83 Honda CB1100F. Tried EVERYWHERE, McMaster-Carr Supply Co., Fastenal, bought numerous O-Ring kits, all to no avail. HAD TO GO TO HONDA TO GET THE CORRECT O-Ring. What was worse was that they were $6.00 a piece. The boss tried several almost sizes on the carbs, and they all leaked. GET THE CORRECT O-RING From the manufacturer, and save your self the headach. Just like captainpooboy says. It will be well worth the money spent.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 6:39:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 6:41:30 PM EDT by captainpooby]
Starsil9 you are correct. Jap bikes cant usually be fitted with an o-ring from one of those "kits". Many of the o-rings are proprietary sizes. Sometimes you have to buy every o-ring in the carb to get one you want.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:05:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: Starsil9 you are correct. Jap bikes cant usually be fitted with an o-ring from one of those "kits". Many of the o-rings are proprietary sizes. Sometimes you have to buy every o-ring in the carb to get one you want.
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Thanks for the assistance in verifying the O-Ring situation with Jap bikes!! Much appreciated!!! N_Viejo there is your answer!!!! GO TO THE MANUFACTURER!!!
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:15:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hanau: take a o-ring that is to big and cut it in two,cut off enough that when the 2 ends meet they are the right size and super glue them together, disclaimer not responsible if you tear/blow something up if you use this suggestion!! also try a place that manily sell rubber iteams,look under rubber products in the yellow pages
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This guy knows his shit. Superglue is the BEST way to resize an O-ring if you cannot find the right diameter. Just make sure that you get as close as possible to the sectional diameter.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:19:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 7:21:00 PM EDT by captainpooby]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By hanau: take a o-ring that is to big and cut it in two,cut off enough that when the 2 ends meet they are the right size and super glue them together, disclaimer not responsible if you tear/blow something up if you use this suggestion!! also try a place that manily sell rubber iteams,look under rubber products in the yellow pages -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong, wrong, wrong. An o-ring CANNOT be made in this fasion. I will bet an AR on it.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:29:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 7:31:41 PM EDT by hanau]
thats how i make them at work for the vacum chambers for the evaporation unit at work, ( we get the gasket from the unit's manf. cut to fit)plus he ask Shadetree Mechanics do they ever do everything right?[:D]
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:33:49 PM EDT
You show me an o-ring made from a cut o-ring function in any motorcycle for 30 days (like any reasonable warranty) and I will give you an AR15.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:37:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 7:37:58 PM EDT by captainpooby]
No mechanic of any reasonable reputation would do that much less advise anyone to do it. Where do you work? Just want to know so I dont get anything done there.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:45:44 PM EDT
My dear friend.... don't let yourself be led astray by all the previous posts. Obviously there is an O-ring made for the commercial machined part/parts you have. O-rings are standardized like most modern mechanical components. It sounds like this is a static application involving fuel so a simple Nitrile or Buna N O-ring material should be fine. You need to measure the outer diameter (assuming this is a pressure application) of the groove as well as the depth. Then download the Parker Seals catalog (pdf file) and do a lil reading and you will be quite pleased to find they cross reference O-ring Groove configurations (etc.) to appropriate O-rings listing standard P/Ns... see the link below. --RR [url]http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/00-5700.pdf[/url]
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 8:41:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: No mechanic of any reasonable reputation would do that much less advise anyone to do it. Where do you work? Just want to know so I dont get anything done there.
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The Morton Thiokol standard was to make o-rings using cyanacrylate (superglue) to glue the ends together. Granted, one of them got fucked-up, but the other ones worked just fine. As far as functioning in a motorcycle, we used to make them for the carbs that way. Superglue is one of, if not THE best things for bonding butyls to each other. Dude, you would be amazed at some of the MacGuyver shit we (smart guys) can pull-off!
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 8:47:29 PM EDT
so someone going to take him up on that AR bet?
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 8:55:14 PM EDT
I don't doubt the properties of cyanoacrylate bonding neoprene. I DO doubt average Joe can cut and make an o-ring out of one he got off the shelf that will last for thirty days. When Challenger blew up and I first found out they were using o-rings (I was astounded) I immediately thought it should have been a labyrinth seal and that's what they went to.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:01:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 9:02:53 PM EDT by captainpooby]
I will also venture a guess that NV is talking about carb o-rings since they are not on the microfice. (they are, just not individually). The o-ring he needs is about the size of the little lite on your computer. Care to make one?
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:09:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: As far as functioning in a motorcycle, we used to make them for the carbs that way. Dude, you would be amazed at some of the MacGuyver shit we (smart guys) can pull-off!
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Hey, Got some questions on this. 1) Were you doing this on your own motorcycle, and did you drive the Motorcycle for an extended period of time? Or was it someone elses Motorcycle that you were working on? Why I ask is; Thye boss I had at the Motorcycle shop where I worked did this stunt. He in many cases was unable to get the ends of the O-ring to bond perfectly square together. Many of the bikes he did this on came back at some point and had to be redone to correct the O-ring leakage. Cost him quite a bit to fix his previous faulty repairs for free. The 83 Honda CB100F was a friend of his, and over the 5 years I worked there, he did to O-Rings once to twice per year, until he finally broke down and put the factory O-Rings in it, and we never saw it for the last 2 years I was there. Just had to ask if you really observed this working for an extended period of time! Oh Yeah, and MacGuyver was an idiot!!!!!!!!! On one show I saw him take spark plugs out of a ford small block with a box end wrench. I'll bet captainpoohboy's AR on the fact that that was complete bull&%it!!!!!!!! We tried it!!!!!!!!!!! What do you think we found!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:15:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I will also venture a guess that NV is talking about carb o-rings since they are not on the microfice. (they are, just not individually). The o-ring he needs is about the size of the little lite on your computer. Care to make one?
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Yes sir buddy, that is exactly why my boss was unable to get the ends of the Orings square to each other, coupled with the fact that it was so tedious to do it, I could have gone to the store and back 5 times by the time he got all four done for a rack of carbs. HOW MUCH IS YOUR TIME WORTH? Mine is worth a lot more than the extra $20.00 in savings from making O-rings with super glue.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:15:19 PM EDT
don't get me wrong I'm sitting here drinking a beer and enjoying the hell out of this conversation but what the F*ck don't you guys get about "O-ring applications are standardized". Unless this guy played "wannabe machinist" and created his own O-ring groove or whatever... there is absolutely no reason to "N" rig an O-ring..... O-rings are specified very simply -material -cross section diameter -inner or outer diameter
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:17:44 PM EDT
My own bike mostly You can buy butyl and nitrile rubber stranding in different sizes per application. jigs are used to get the ends square. As far as the box-end wrench to remove the sparkplugs on a smallblock Ford V8, such as you might find in a 1969 Mach 1 Mustang with a 351 Windsor, it is easy as hell. Yeah, the actual macguyver was bullshit, I just use the term "MacGuyver" because people like yourselves (analytical minds aside) understand the term 100%.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:19:06 PM EDT
In nearly 20 years on the job I've seen it all. Bullshit repairs dont work. Factory parts do. I'm sure Morton Thiokol spends thousands to mate those orings EXACTLY together.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:35:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: My own bike mostly You can buy butyl and nitrile rubber stranding in different sizes per application. jigs are used to get the ends square. As far as the box-end wrench to remove the sparkplugs on a smallblock Ford V8, such as you might find in a 1969 Mach 1 Mustang with a 351 Windsor, it is easy as hell. Yeah, the actual macguyver was bullshit, I just use the term "MacGuyver" because people like yourselves (analytical minds aside) understand the term 100%.
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I wonder if NV has a jig to cut the ends. Also, 351 Windsor story, maybe, the wrench like the one MacGuyver used, I do not think would work, the box end won't get deep enough into the spark plug hole to grab the hex on the plug. Yes you can do it easy as hell with the open end of the wrench!!! But whatever, everyone is an expert!!! Have NV by the buytal strand, and the jig and super glue, and cut his own O-rings. I'll go to the dealer and by mine, the money is worth the time saved to me. I've waisted hours of my life shortchanging jobs to save a buck and then having to do it over again. Learned that lesson years ago.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:56:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 10:45:39 PM EDT by Dave_A]
www.ronayers.com Order the real thing there... Also, at least for my bike, the parts diagrams on www.bikebandit.com are complete to the individual-o-ring level... Now, here's another challenge: Anyone know how to keep steel exhaust bolts from welding themselves into an alluminum engine block??? I had to take my bike's cylinder head to the shop (the head needed to come off, 'cause my cam chain skipped, 2 valves bent, and thus it's re-build time) to get 4 busted off exhaust bolts (which did not respond to penatrating oil or propane heating) extracted, don't want to do this again (I hate paying mechanics)...
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:56:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By starsil9: I worked in a bike shop for five years, since you have more experience than me maybe you can testify to my experience with Japanese bikes and O-Rings. 1) Japanese motorcycle manufacturers make a point of producing O-Rings that are odd ball sizes and thicknesses, that you can only get from the manufacturer. 2) Went through this before with an '83 Honda CB1100F. Tried EVERYWHERE, McMaster-Carr Supply Co., Fastenal, bought numerous O-Ring kits, all to no avail. HAD TO GO TO HONDA TO GET THE CORRECT O-Ring. What was worse was that they were $6.00 a piece.
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I believe what you're referring to are o-rings in JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) and JASO (Japan Automobile Standard) sizes. Again, [url=http://www.mcmaster.com]McMaster-Carr[/url] now carries 'em.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:57:55 PM EDT
I'll admit, Ive also had some projects go straight to hell! But in the end, all good out-comes, combined with bad out-comes gives a person a MUCH wider view of what can and cannot be accomplished when the "correct" parts are not readily available. I also agree that if you HAVE the correct parts available, BUY THEM.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:00:46 PM EDT
well put..... any production part or assembly has well defined components. One has to simply identify the componenet he needs. I believe your effort would be better applied identifying the O-ring p/n rather than trying to fake a make-shift O-ring.... Even high tech developmental projects will use standardized components if available. I have seen more than one project fail due to deviation from this simple concept. Yeah, no kidding.... nuff said... --RR
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:21:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2003 4:21:48 AM EDT by hanau]
[url]http://www.brkstech.com/oring_make.html[/url]
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 5:08:13 AM EDT
I'm gonna side with Hanau. Where I work there are a lot of proprietary components including o-rings...and many from manufacturers that have gone out of business. When we encounter something like this we make our own o-rings from these kits [url]http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611574468[/url] It does take some practice to get the ends aligned correctly, plus you may have to sand it a bit to make the splice smooth. I've used them on everything from 20 psi potable water to 3000 psi hydraulics and from 2" to 18" in diameter. Dave_A, you should be able to find a high-temp metallic anti-seize lubricant to coat the bolt threads with before you install them. mm
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 5:32:26 AM EDT
In my business I run specialized equipment that has many hydraulic components. When we have a hydraulic O ring leak, it would be overnight delivery to replace with a factory part. We don't have time to shut down. We have, do, and will continue to fabricate our own O rings. The O rings operate under 2000 to 2500 working pressure with spike pressure of 3600 to 3800. We have NEVER had a failure due to our shop fabricated O rings. Captain Pooby, If you would like, I will fly you to New Hampshire, fabricate an O ring, install it in our equipment, operate said equipment, collect my new AR, and fly you home again. Please Mr. Pooby, take me up on my offer. I figure I can fly you to NH for about $300 round trip, plus about 6 cents for the O ring.....lets see $300.06 into a new AR...yeah, please take me up on it. Further, although I have not specifically used "Super Glue", I have, many times, cut an existing O ring, sized it for my application, then glued it back together using my O ring kit. I would not use this on the Space Shuttle, an F-16, or any live or die situation, I do however use them on $500,000.00 pieces of equipment. Nuff Said
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