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Posted: 6/5/2003 5:23:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:28:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:34:24 AM EDT
cowards will do or say anything to make brave men look cowardly.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:35:31 AM EDT
If someone joined for college money, more power to them. College money is not worth the price of putting your life on the line to protect me and mine. thanks go out to all who serve. Even those in the brig, military life can be tuff on the stupid and non conformists.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:38:06 AM EDT
I spent half my life in the military and never bitched about those that did not want to serve. To each his own, I always say. But I could never take it when a civilian bitches about those of us that did serve, or pretends to know the variety of reasons why we volunteered. Your points are very valid [b]TomJefferson[/b]! No apology is necessary.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:39:16 AM EDT
Amen, TJ.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:42:15 AM EDT
There is no excuse not to respect those that put their lives on the line to protect this country. I respect veterans.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:42:47 AM EDT
You tell 'em, Tom!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:46:06 AM EDT
Actually, I signed up for the cheap booze in the PXs. But I hated those ration cards. I'd go out with non-booze drinking military women just so I can, ahem, utilize their ration cards. [;)] So there. Fuck you Joe "Bitch about us, will ya?" Civilian.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:47:52 AM EDT
No apology needed. We all have our reasons for serving and I still here it even today from the tree huggers. Yeah the pay ain't great, but that is not why we went in. I feel our service members deserve alot more than what they get. I only got 580.00 a month when I was in. More when I married,but that still wasn't alot either. Some people will never understand why they have the freedoms they do, nor do the appreciate them either. If it wasn't for every one of us who did serve they might be speaking russian or german if Hitler had had his way. Just my .02 worth.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:49:13 AM EDT
Good post Tom. I didn't join until after I already had a Masters degree. And then I chose the enlisted path. I've turned down commission requests to stay an NCO. It's not about the money or the benefits. Some civilians just don't get it. -SARguy
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:50:08 AM EDT
Give em hell, Tom! I know of a couple of members he's refering to. [kill]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:50:53 AM EDT
I joined to serve my country, but after the 2 year mark I was so tired of the bull shit that my will to serve was more for college. I get tired of people criticizing me for spending THIER tax dollars for my education. They seem to forget the 4 years I gave (along with others) to preserve the freedom they take for granted.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:53:07 AM EDT
I joined because I wanted to be a pirate. I couldn't figure out how to go about becoming a pirate. I figured it was the next best thing. The argument that we joined for the $ is a fallacious one. The democrats constantly harp on this, as false evidence that the economy is so bad. ("there are no jobs, so poor folk have no choice but to enlist...") Fact is, most of those with whom I served were very middle class. Most were suburban kids. All had HS Diplomas. Some had a little college. A few had degrees. People who have not served rarely know about what they speak, when it comes to the demographics and reasons of those who serve.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:15:27 AM EDT
Right On TJ! I think there are two basic reasons for these morons to attack those who served: Some folks are deeply self concious that they never served. Let's face it...there ARE cowards among us and they are uncomfortable with their cowardice and their choices, especially during bellicose times like these when our military men and women are held in such high esteem. It IS a rite of passage for all of us...this collective achievement and joining of an "elite" club that these complainers can never be members of. Those memories will always be with us...and those with whom we served will always be in our hearts. This makes the complainers all the more jealous. It also makes lots of those who could never muster up the courage to join and risk their lives very uncomfortable. Their attacks on those of us who did make the sacrifice are an attempt to bring righteousness to their choices, and calm their conciences. The other reason is...many of our fellow citizens just hate everything military and consider those who join up to be ignorant dolts incapable of making it in the "real world". We know that to be a bunch of BS too. Take comfort in the fact that YOU are a better person for joining and for your achievements. In that, you have already won...
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:23:26 AM EDT
I'm quite disappointed with this thread. You numbskulls have defended an irrational position at one extent of the swing of the pendulum with an irrational postion on the other.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:25:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 308wood: cowards will do or say anything to make brave men look cowardly.
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Bingo.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:41:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:54:12 AM EDT
I had my BA when I joined--I am enlisted. If I joined for the pay, I didn't choose wisely grasshopper! The other benefits are pretty good though: Medical, leave, opportunity for advancement, etc...but the pay--well, it could be better. On the flip side, none of my civilian friends have ever had the opportunity to visit some of the "garden spots" I have had a chance to see: Saudi, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc... They have to base their opinions on what they read in the paper, or see on TV. I don't. I've been there and I know what we are fighting & dying for. I have about 19 years in now and I wouldn't change a thing. Yeah, I've been deployed to some shit holes around the world, but I joined voluntarily. On the flip side, I have seen some beautiful places too: Panama, Costa Rica, Colombia, and Italy, so all my deployments haven't been to desert wastelands. But TJ, you are right, it does bother me to read some of the crap these "arm chair" generals post. But, part of the reason we serve is so those poor misguided souls have a nice, secure & free country to live in so they can post whatever drivel they care too. TennVol MSgt, USAF Peterson AFB, CO
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:06:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 7:12:36 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:37:31 AM EDT
unless you served. nonone has the right to judge military personel for anything, let alone for college..i join USMC ,and i didnt go to college..infact..i joined inlew of goin to college..and even if ppl did join for that reason , so what..at any given time they are asked to give up their life, home, family , etc. college is a small token that the military can offer to help educate fellow military personel..
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:48:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 7:49:56 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Originally Posted By die-tryin: unless you served. nonone has the right to judge military personel for anything
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Do you adopt that same stance with regard to LEOs? Perhaps only LEOs or ex-LEOs should have the right to judge current department practices, policies, or behavior. Does being a part of it give you more insight? Absolutely! But you should never feel that opinions of those on the "outside" don't matter.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:48:31 AM EDT
When I joined all that was on my mind was poontang, beer, cars, and guns. College was the furthest thing on my mind. I didn't decide to use the college benefits until much later in life. I joined to kill people and break things...I am batting .500 on that one. I was one told by a frigging liberal Klinton apologist that the military is nothing more than welefare for people who are unable to make it in the civil sector. Ungrateful bitch. After 9-11 she was gungho about the military then. Hypocritical bitch. I EARNED my college benefits and anyone who doesn't agree can kiss my olive drab government issue A$$! And guess what, I am doing quite well in the civil sector too, a hell of alot better than that liberal %#*!@?!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:37:58 PM EDT
bump
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:53:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: I beg your pardon for this rant but this has been bugging me for quite sometime and I would like get this off my chest. I won't slam individuals for that is not my style but you know who you are. There is an impression and repeating theme from non-military members that the people who serve or served our country only do so to get college funding. Yes, college funding is an incentive to join but anyone who did or does just for that reason is a fool. I took advantage of the GI bill and that whopping $480/month helped but didn't prevent me from taking loans and working full time. I did not belong to a frat nor did I party hardy. With this in mind, it gripes the holy shit out of me to hear these non-veteran wealthy boys slam those that served and got their education benifits. I wonder what brand of beer they were slugging down while we were humping 80# of gear and sleeping in the mud putting our lives on the line defending our country. I like almost every veteran I have met joined the Military for a number of reasons but foremost was and with all us was a desire to serve this country and a willingness to risk our lives in it's defense. I have yet to have met the this is just a job serviceman or veteran. Another thread that griped my ass was a current member serving in the military was ranting about the poor pay and wishing he got a raise. He was pounced upon once again by non-veterans claiming he joined and should only expect what you get. Wake up butt heads, no one knows what to expect in the Military until they are in the Military so what the shit would you all know about it anyway. What really griped my ass was he was put down for being an enlisted man by someone who had only marched around in an ROTC uniform and never served. It is a common desire in business for a person to better their income yet some feel these patriots should not have the same desires and wants as they themselves do. I ask them are you willing to not have raises because you knew what the pay scale was in the job you took too. I always vote for higher salaries for our LEOs and Military. These guys are laying their lives on the line for us. That's you too and your family and don't bother to give me this I didn't ask them too. Because the comeback, was where were you. I don't hold anthing against anyone who never served for it is not for everyone and everyone is not needed. It does gripe my ass to read these self rightious comments snubbing their noses at those that served. I apologize for the rant and to tell you the truth I don't give a shit if any of you reply to this as long as you get off your high ass horse and leave these patriots the shit alone. Tj
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Right on ! I agree!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:25:17 PM EDT
Exactly one month ago I signed a contract to join the Army. I don't ship out until November. Did I join for the college money? No, I don't need the college money. I've been told several times by my parents during the 3 years since I finished high school, that if I want to go to college the money is there for me. I really want to make a career in the Army. But, the military isn't for everyone... and you really don't know for sure if its for you until you are there. After I serve my 4 years, if I decide I've had enough, I'll get out and use the GI bill. If I decide I like it, I'll be sticking around for 20+ years. The college benefits really had nothing to do with my decision to join. If they didn't exist it wouldn't have mattered to me. But since they are there I will use them if I need to. Only a fool wouldn't. Just my two cents.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:41:08 PM EDT
I joined the military to avoid college. I joined to serve my country and get get some needed self discipline and maturity. I got quite a bit out of my time, got tired of the BS and got out. I can surely say my military exp helped me get my first jobs out of the service and my experience helps to this day. No regrets and I have not used my GI Bill. -934
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:54:25 PM EDT
My last USGI monthly paycheck was for $747, and an additional Jump Pay of $55. That was after 5 years of Service. People joining up now get more than that as an E-1. In fact, their Base Pay is almost twice what I earned. They gave me $341 per month under the GI College Bill. That ALMOST paid tuition. I had a job working 8 and a half hours every day. Between working during the day and then Night School, it was a rare day that I got more than 6 hours of sleep. TJ, these New Guys don’t know how lucky they are. Nor do they know what it is to have to Really Work. But to the New Guys who are joining up to make something of themselves: There are so many Good things about the Service. There are also so many Bad things. I been so tired I had difficulty keeping my eyes open. There were many other times I was so excited by what was going around that I couldn’t have gone to sleep if I had wanted to. I’ve been to more different States and Countries than anybody in my Family except those who fought in World War II. There is so much out there. So much potential adventure. Both good and bad. I re-upped once. If my knees hadn't of given out I would have been a Lifer. [USA]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:57:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GiggleSmith: TJ, these New Guys don’t know how lucky they are. Nor do they know what it is to have to Really Work. [USA]
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AMEN!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 4:23:15 PM EDT
I remember quite clearly the individual who posted about this. He was totally talking out his ass. "yeah, I was in ROTC for two years. I KNOW what its like" sure whatever. My civilian counterpart makes more than twice what I make... but I guess I really joined for the money. We know why we put up with the hard life. Every time you put on that uniform and look in the mirror you know why. The people who really served know what I'm talking about. How about when you try to explain to civilians what you do, and they look at you totally puzzled and say, " that sounds really dangerous" or "that sounds crazy, I could never do something that hard" To all those who served before me, you have my respect. RR
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:26:10 PM EDT
I joined to do my part for my country. Simple as that. I have yet to utilize any of my benefits as I really don't need them. As far as civilians who have never served and what they think, I could care less. Those who have done their part know why they did and are proud of their service. Having said that it would be nice if they would simply say thanks for your service and then STFU, but that's in a perfect patriotic world.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:38:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GiggleSmith: My last USGI monthly paycheck was for $747, and an additional Jump Pay of $55. That was after 5 years of Service. People joining up now get more than that as an E-1. In fact, their Base Pay is almost twice what I earned. They gave me $341 per month under the GI College Bill. That ALMOST paid tuition. I had a job working 8 and a half hours every day. Between working during the day and then Night School, it was a rare day that I got more than 6 hours of sleep. TJ, these New Guys don’t know how lucky they are. Nor do they know what it is to have to Really Work. But to the New Guys who are joining up to make something of themselves: There are so many Good things about the Service. There are also so many Bad things. I been so tired I had difficulty keeping my eyes open. There were many other times I was so excited by what was going around that I couldn’t have gone to sleep if I had wanted to. I’ve been to more different States and Countries than anybody in my Family except those who fought in World War II. There is so much out there. So much potential adventure. Both good and bad. I re-upped once. If my knees hadn't of given out I would have been a Lifer. [USA]
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You forgot to add, "Kids today...", humped to and from the barracks, 75 miles with a 5000 lb ruck, uphill both ways in a blizzard. Sounds like you are getting old Giggle.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:48:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stryker_11A:
Originally Posted By GiggleSmith: My last USGI monthly paycheck was for $747, and an additional Jump Pay of $55. That was after 5 years of Service. People joining up now get more than that as an E-1. In fact, their Base Pay is almost twice what I earned. They gave me $341 per month under the GI College Bill. That ALMOST paid tuition. I had a job working 8 and a half hours every day. Between working during the day and then Night School, it was a rare day that I got more than 6 hours of sleep. TJ, these New Guys don’t know how lucky they are. Nor do they know what it is to have to Really Work. But to the New Guys who are joining up to make something of themselves: There are so many Good things about the Service. There are also so many Bad things. I been so tired I had difficulty keeping my eyes open. There were many other times I was so excited by what was going around that I couldn’t have gone to sleep if I had wanted to. I’ve been to more different States and Countries than anybody in my Family except those who fought in World War II. There is so much out there. So much potential adventure. Both good and bad. I re-upped once. If my knees hadn't of given out I would have been a Lifer. [USA]
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You forgot to add, "Kids today...", humped to and from the barracks, 75 miles with a 5000 lb ruck, uphill both ways in a blizzard. Sounds like you are getting old Giggle.
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I know alot of prior service have had it tougher than me, but to say that I or alot todays servicemen don't know what really hard work is, is pure malarkey. I'm not in anymore but I know for a fact that alot of the "New Guys" are working their asses off.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:21:32 PM EDT
Take no prisoners, Tom J! Whoooooaaaahhhh!!!! There are those who choose to serve, and those who choose not to. The miltary is not for everybody and I have lots of respect for those who decide it isn't for them. But... I have absolutely no use for those non-servers who constantly bitch about their "rights," yet have contributed nothing to earning or securing those rights. Panzer Out
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 8:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 8:14:11 PM EDT by Sukebe]
I like to think that I joined the Marines to get away from a home. I like to think I joined the Marines because there were no good jobs (anyone remember the early 80's?). I like to think I joined the Marines because I didn't want to go to college. Well, the fact is anyone who knows anything about the USMC would not join for three hots and a cot. There are other services to choose from with better living conditions. You don't join the Marines because your looking for a job. The pay ain't so great. The working conditions can really suck and the union is lousy. Oh yeah, the first thing I did when I got to a permanent duty station was start taking college courses. The truth is, I joined the USMC because I wanted to be a Marine. I wanted to be challenged. I wanted to be the best. I wanted to serve overseas. I wanted to be a part of it forever. I wanted to feel like I earned the privileges that I enjoy as an American by giving something in return rather than just accepting what was given to me by accident of birth. I grew up hearing about my Great, Great Grand Fathers service in the Union Army. My fathers brother, an Uncle I would never know, getting killed on Saipan. My father serving as a rifleman in Korea. My neighbor going to Vietnam and never coming home. Service to our country was just part of becoming an adult. No one in my family ever accepted a college deferment. No one in my family ever spit on a Vet. Most of my friends that I went to High School with never served. When I would come home on leave and tell them about all the things I had done and all the places that I had been. They would tell me how they wished that they had enlisted instead of going to College (they lied). I would tell them that they weren't missing anything and that they had it made in College (I lied too.)
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 8:21:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stryker_11A: You forgot to add, "Kids today...", humped to and from the barracks, 75 miles with a 5000 lb ruck, uphill both ways in a blizzard. Sounds like you are getting old Giggle.
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Nah. I was stationed at Fort Hood Texas for 154 weeks. I got some Fantastic two-toned suntans though. I never got snowed on until I got my Paratrooper Wings and Vicenza Italy. And there the total came to about maybe an inch. Of course later on the Army took us by bus up into the Alps to learn how to ski. Asiago, Italy, if you can find it on the map. The snow was six feet – and I do mean six (6) feet – deep there. As for getting old... My eyes can still outshoot some Youngsters around the ranges here.[sniper2]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:02:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IYAOYAS467: I joined to do my part for my country. Simple as that. I have yet to utilize any of my benefits as I really don't need them.
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Same here.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 5:55:54 AM EDT
Call me a bass in the choir brother. I served to 'serve' Good post.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 6:12:32 AM EDT
I joined because I wanted to be a door gunner on a chopper and shoot the dink bitch that threw that grenade! Ended up a tank crewman, but still got to see Hong Kong, Australia, Philippines, Hawaii, Japan, Korea, and many fine places in Southern California. I say to each his own. But my hat goes off to anyone who had the balls to sign on the dotted line (even if it wasn't for the USMC). BTW: Anyone who did sign up for the college money is pretty damn smart. It's one of the best two-fers going - serve your country AND get an education.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 6:12:37 AM EDT
TJ, nice post brother. I personally joined the Army to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill.(Full Metal Jacket)[:D] Sounds like a certain ROTC cadet needs a wall to wall counseling. [slap]
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 6:18:55 AM EDT
I wanted fun, and I wanted adventure. (All the patriotism and desire to serve stuff was a given.) After getting a taste of the infantry, I wanted to lead. There's nothing quite like it... ....walking into a room, and having a hundred and seventy men pop to attention, and wait for your command. Takes your breath away.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:11:58 AM EDT
When I enlisted in the Army back in the 70's, money for college was just a bonus. It was not the reason I joined. More than anything else it was seeing the Soviet/East German Army up close while a highschool exchange student in West Germany, and wanting to protect my country. Heck, as far as college money goes, I paid into VEAP (Veterans Educational Assistance Program). If memory serves me right, I paid $2,800 out of my meager salary over three years active duty, and our government paid me $8,100 over 4 years of college. I couldn't even re-enlist for the "new" GI Bill, I had to keep VEAP. Of course tutition, even then, was high and I had Student Loans and JTPA (Job Training Parterner Ship Act) in order to get through. Spent the first few years out of college paying off my college loans. College debt is something I don't wish on any vet that has served their country honorably.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:11:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LWilde: Right On TJ! I think there are two basic reasons for these morons to attack those who served: Some folks are deeply self concious that they never served. Let's face it...there ARE cowards among us and they are uncomfortable with their cowardice and their choices, especially during bellicose times like these when our military men and women are held in such high esteem. It IS a rite of passage for all of us...this collective achievement and joining of an "elite" club that these complainers can never be members of. Those memories will always be with us...and those with whom we served will always be in our hearts. This makes the complainers all the more jealous. It also makes lots of those who could never muster up the courage to join and risk their lives very uncomfortable. Their attacks on those of us who did make the sacrifice are an attempt to bring righteousness to their choices, and calm their conciences. The other reason is...many of our fellow citizens just hate everything military and consider those who join up to be ignorant dolts incapable of making it in the "real world". We know that to be a bunch of BS too. Take comfort in the fact that YOU are a better person for joining and for your achievements. In that, you have already won...
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Excellent post, LWilde. The only thing I would add to it is the intense regret experienced by non-vets later in life. There is a window of opportunity for military service, and once that window closes, all that's left is a big fat "what if..." Panzer Out
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:21:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By redray: Actually, I signed up for the cheap booze in the PXs. [;)]
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Personally, I served because of the groupies. That and the opportunity to latch on to lucrative product endorsement contracts.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:41:24 PM EDT
then there are those of us who were "lucky" to fall between the "GI Bill" and "NEW GI Bill"... that clusterfuck was called VEAP. Basicly didn't amount to much for anything. [:(] AND, if you were lucky enough be able to attend classes while on AD, count your blessings. Being part of a RDF (Rapid Deployment Force), I didn't wind up having too much free time on a consitant basis. Combine all that with the fact that I was "young, dumb and full of c*m".... (sigh)
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 5:35:48 PM EDT
IMHO, it sometimes takes more courage to stay home and raise a family for unlike the military you don't have an ETS date.
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There are many of us who raise families while we serve...
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 5:42:52 PM EDT
I spent 20 years in the Air Force and educationally, all I have to show for it is two associates and one bachelors degree. These were acquired using Tuition assistance and not the old or new GI bill, neither of which I ever got. I joined the AF in 1978 when VEAP was the "only" option available after the GI bill expired in 1976. For a $1200 contribution, pair at the rate of $100 a month, good old Uncle Sugar would give you $3600 for a whopping grand total of $4800 to fund your college education. Even taking into consideration that it was the late 70's and early 80's, $4800 would not buy much education then and I politely declined their offer and never opened a VEAP account. Years later when they converted VEAP to the new GI bill, I was left out in the cold because I had never opened a VEAP account. Daahhh!! Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it! Anyway, tuition assistance was paying 90% of your class cost when I first came in so VEAP didn't seem like such a great idea then. Just wish I had the GI bill now as I would like to go for a masters and have somebody else pay for it! Oh well....
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:31:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:38:21 AM EDT
With this in mind, it gripes the holy shit out of me to hear these non-veteran wealthy boys slam those that served and got their education benifits. I wonder what brand of beer they were slugging down while we were humping 80# of gear and sleeping in the mud putting our lives on the line defending our country.
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A better question would be, "What were they protesting at the time and how many of their gay professors were slamming them up the butt?" Eddie
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:51:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 6:09:51 AM EDT
dirty old man.
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