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Posted: 6/4/2003 12:01:30 PM EDT
is there any truth to this? I'm curious because it's well documented. link: probe.org/docs/masonry
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 12:04:31 PM EDT
Made hot: [url]http://www.probe.org/docs/masonry.html[/url]
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 1:53:16 PM EDT
Hi, not by works. I imagine you've seen the other Masonic thread. I said about all I have to say over there, so I'm not going to hammer much more on this. My thoughts on it are that if it was a secular organization I wouldn't have much to say. However, Pike and Mackey wrote a lot about the spiritual nature of it with references to the Babylonian mystery religions, if I remember correctly. I was trying to make some points about Christians involved in the organization, but I think they got tired of me quoting the Bible (isn't that annoying?). See you around the site...
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 1:58:10 PM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 2:27:16 PM EDT
brohawk- thanks for the greeting. even tho I'm not a mason, I am interested in it. I'm interested in any organization that is possibly leading Christians astray through deception! don't get me wrong-Iknow that the masons do a high amount of good in this world. I just think people should have as many facts at hand as possible.Did you read the link?
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 2:33:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/4/2003 2:37:21 PM EDT by texashark]
It doesn't matter what we say, the Mason bashers are going to believe what they want to believe. I've not seen anything in Masonry that conflicts with my Christian beliefs. I'm also a member of the NRA. The NRA doesn't endorse Christianity or refuse to admit non Christians (as far as I know). Yet I don't see a great hue and cry over it being an anti Christian group. I've said this here before: If you don't want to be a member don't join. But please don't start these posts just to cause trouble, or spread your personal dislike of the organization. We're happy without you, and you without us. Leave it at that. Edited it because I saw the last post about leading Christians astray. Can you honestly say you personally know anyone who has been so corrupted, or is your statement based on what you've read only?
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 3:41:50 PM EDT
who's bashing the Masons? my question was whether there was any truth to the article! you accuse me of stirring up trouble,but that was not my intent. I'll answer your question so maybe you'll answer mine...no, I cannot honestly say that I know anyone who's been corrupted by the masons. however, based on the percentage of masons I don't know,that isn't really all that significant.I listen to alot of Christian radio programs (like Point of View ),and the consesus is all the same. texashark, the very reason for this post is because I DON'T believe everything I read or hear.Your question causes me to believe that you might have missed that.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 4:16:15 PM EDT
Interesting link, I'd be interested in hearing from masons. Surely, they've heard of this "Pike" fella...
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 4:21:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By not_by_works: brohawk- thanks for the greeting. even tho I'm not a mason, I am interested in it. I'm interested in any organization that is possibly leading Christians astray through deception! don't get me wrong-Iknow that the masons do a high amount of good in this world. I just think people should have as many facts at hand as possible.Did you read the link?
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Well, then you should be interested in the following organizations who have led christians astray. - The Catholic church - The Baptist church - The Episcopal church - TV Evangelists Get my drift?
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 4:44:18 PM EDT
as a matter of fact I am interested in those organizations! if your "drift" is that the entities you named have had (historically) individuals in them who have led people astray, then what's your point? anyone would agree that this is true.in fact, name one group of people which doesn't have its share of dishonest,corrupt or otherwise hypocritical people in it. it kind of goes w/o saying, huh?
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 4:52:06 PM EDT
My response is simply this: Right now, Freemasonry appears to be the intended whipping boy of those with nothing better to do. In the not too distant future, it'll be someone else's turn.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 5:02:50 PM EDT
hey cookie...your veiled accusations are similar to texashark's. yet you dodge the question. is this article based on FACTS?!
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 5:14:00 PM EDT
Ive read other articles about Albert Pike. From what the author of that website writes, it seems Masonry made a pretty big change in the last 200 years. The thing that bothered me most about what I read was "grand architect of the universe". So was Albert Pike a pagan? FYI:Wicca is a recognized religion in our military.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 5:14:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By not_by_works: as a matter of fact I am interested in those organizations! if your "drift" is that the entities you named have had (historically) individuals in them who have led people astray, then what's your point? anyone would agree that this is true.in fact, name one group of people which doesn't have its share of dishonest,corrupt or otherwise hypocritical people in it. it kind of goes w/o saying, huh?
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Well, my drift is this: Organized christianity has done more to lead christians astray, than any other organizations. Get it? So lay off the masons. (I'm not one)
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 5:18:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By not_by_works: hey cookie...your veiled accusations are similar to texashark's. yet you dodge the question. is this article based on FACTS?!
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Don't know, didn't read it (it looked way too long and boring). Maybe you could post something shorter that would hold my attention, perhaps in coloring book format. [:)]
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:08:29 PM EDT
this is really getting boring. how exactly am i attacking anybody here???
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:33:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By not_by_works: this is really getting boring. how exactly am i attacking anybody here???
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"your question": is this article based on FACTS?! Whose facts, and whose interpretation? By putting up an article that's obviously biased from a group that has an obvious agenda, I can only wonder if this is an attack. If this is a good faith inquiry, I apologize for seeming thin skinned,but... In fact, your original post said "it's well documented". That's their interpetation of Masonry, and any attempt to rebut it here will be met with ridicule by those opposed. I've seen too many of these threads on this forum and they all degenerate to Mason bashing. I'm comfortable with my Christianity and my Masonic ties. So, I'll leave this discussion by saying to you to take the opportunity to visit a local lodge and meet real folks, and make your mind up there. I'll leave now, I've got to get a new goat and some buckets of blood for our meeting. [:)]
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:40:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:43:25 PM EDT
Okay, I can't resist. I went back to the site you referenced and looked around. They denounce Masons, Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, Martial arts, and studying yoga. The only thing I didn't see was an expose' of Tinky Winky, but I didn't stick around long enough to look too hard.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 7:55:45 PM EDT
2nd Mason thread in 2 days: More to follow. Well, at least the cops will get a break for a little bit. [:)] Jay
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:12:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/4/2003 8:16:16 PM EDT by PaDanby]
Well any organization that had George Washington and Burl Ives in it can't be all bad. Most of Masonic anti-Roman Catholicism is based on friction in the British Isles betwen Protestants and Catholics and it has carried over A lot of the Catholic anti-Masonic ill will goes back to a refusal of the Masons to recogniz Papal Supremacy which torked one of the Popes. What U.S. Presidents have been Masons? * George Washington * James Monroe * Andrew Jackson * James Polk * James Buchanan * Andrew Johnson * James Garfield * William McKinley * Theodore Roosevelt * William Howard Taft * Warren G. Harding * Franklin D. Roosevelt * Harry S. Truman * (Lyndon B. Johnson) * Gerald R. Ford Notes (in chronological order): * William McKinley's Masonic membership has not been confirmed 100%, though his name does appear on several lists. Hopefully, someone will be able to provide a definitive yes or no. * William Howard Taft was made a Mason At Sight by the Grand Master of Ohio and later raised to Grand Master of Ohio in 1909. * Harry S. Truman was also Grand Master of his home state, Missouri. * Lyndon Johnson was an Entered Apprentice, but never progressed beyond that degree. * Ronald Reagan is not a craft Mason. He was made an honorary 33rd degree Mason by the Southern Jurisdiction of the AASR and an honorary member of the Imperial Council of the Shrine, but he was never entered, passed, and raised as a Mason, nor was he ever made a Mason at sight. (Source: Robinson's Born in Blood) * Bill Clinton is not a Mason, though he was involved in DeMolay for a time. * Many other leaders in government have been Masons: "They have included fourteen Presidents and eighteen Vice Presidents of the United States; a majority of the Justices of the United States Supreme Court, of the Governors of States, of the members of the Senate, and a large percentage of the Congressmen. Five Chief Justices of the United States were Masons and two were Grand Masters. The five were Oliver Ellsworth, John Marshall (also Grand Master of Masons in Virginia), William Howard Taft, Frederick M. Vinson and Earl Warren (also Grand Master of Masons in California.)" - Henry C. Clausen You might want to look here for more info. http://www.freemason.org/site/faq.htm#a14 from the California Grand Lodge. I was gonna say leading Christians astray was a lot of hooey and then I remembered some of the Shriners Parade units I've seen. Any organization that can get them to do that, sober, wellll.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:17:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/4/2003 8:22:14 PM EDT by Tonys68l36]
Can someone please tell me about the guy in the coffin???? Hey guys whats up with the prayer in the opening and closing of the lodge meetings??? You know the PRAYERS to the "Great Architect of the universe??? I thought there was no religious stuff????
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 8:57:36 AM EDT
I've heard stories of references to the "child of light" or "being of light" being the real "architect" of the 33rd right. ie Lucifer. That the big secret told in the 33rd right is that God didn't make the Universe, Lucifer did. God ordered him too, but Lucifer was the actual "architect" that built it. My favorite one is the whole 9/11-War on Terror thing is actually a vendetta between the Freemasons/Knights Templar and the Assassins Cult. No matter what's the truth, my grandfather was a 32nd right so I'm a shoe in if I choose to join right? Even though my little brother's a Saracen?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:02:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:10:47 AM EDT
Albert Pike, et al, masonic writers wax philisophical about what Masonry means or meant to them. Pike is a looney. I have read alot of 'Morals and Dogma'... wheeww... orbiting Jupiter. It is often remarked about the lack of Jesus in Masonic ritual... the fact of the matter is, Masonic ritual is based in the time frame of the building of King Solomon's Temple. There were only Jews then... no Christians. Honestly, I believe this is why the religious tolerance is inherent in Masonry. I am a Mason.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:24:23 AM EDT
[img]http://www.lawine.be/simpsons/images/stone.gif[/img] [i]Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do! Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the martians under wraps? We do! We do! Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star? We do! We do! Who robs the cave fish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscars night? We do! We do![/i] [headbang][hail][headbang][hail][headbang][ha­il][headbang][hail][headbang][hail]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:27:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AZCOP: 2nd Mason thread in 2 days: More to follow. Well, at least the cops will get a break for a little bit. [:)] Jay
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Don't get cocky. [:)] After they're through with us, it's on to the Cub Scouts, Camp Fire Girls, and then, you guessed it...it's your turn again!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:29:56 AM EDT
With thanks to The_Macallan: In ancient Greece, Socrates was reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem. One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher and said, "Socrates, do you know what I just heard about your friend?" "Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test." "Triple Filter?" "That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about my friend, it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?" "No, " the man said, "actually I just heard about it and ..." "All right," said Socrates, "so you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the Filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend something good?" "No, on the contrary ..." "So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test, though, because there's one filter left: the Filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my friend going to be useful to me?" "No, not really." "Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?" This is why Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem. It also explains why he never found out his best friend was sleeping with his wife.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:31:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pat-Riot: I've heard stories of references to the "child of light" or "being of light" being the real "architect" of the 33rd right. ie Lucifer. That the big secret told in the 33rd right is that God didn't make the Universe, Lucifer did. God ordered him too, but Lucifer was the actual "architect" that built it. My favorite one is the whole 9/11-War on Terror thing is actually a vendetta between the Freemasons/Knights Templar and the Assassins Cult. No matter what's the truth, my grandfather was a 32nd right so I'm a shoe in if I choose to join right? Even though my little brother's a Saracen?
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What the heck happened to the tinfoil hat smiley?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:37:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Can someone please tell me about the guy in the coffin???? Hey guys whats up with the prayer in the opening and closing of the lodge meetings??? You know the PRAYERS to the "Great Architect of the universe??? I thought there was no religious stuff????
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I never saw a guy in a coffin, except when I was at a viewing - never at any Masonic function. Yes, there is a prayer at opening and closing. There were also opening & closing prayers at our high school wrestling team's banquet a couple of weeks ago. "Great (or Grand) Architect of the Universe" is a generic term for "God". Not every religion uses the name "God", and some religions consider the name of God to be ineffible.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 11:11:25 AM EDT
I posted that with tinfoil in cheek guys. I don't really believe that my own grandfather was a Lucifer worshiper for christ's sake.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:15:14 AM EDT
Alpo posted this link in the other Mason thread and I think it helped me affirm some thoughts I had about Masonry. [url]www.masonicinfo.com[/url] taken from the link: "Books about Wicca abound and our website is created to discuss Freemasonry and anti-Masonry. One thing is clear: at least some elements of Wicca have a commonality with the rituals of Freemasonry. Did Freemasonry borrow from Wicca? It's highly unlikely and, in fact, with the strong Protestant leanings of its original members seems nearly impossible. There are, however, who believe that Wicca is simply a modern 'invention' and that its major proponent (Gardner) borrowed heavily from Freemasonry. You can read a very succinct article recently published in the Atlantic Monthly magazine which espouses that theory right here. We'll repeat: we take no position whatsoever on Wicca. We believe, however, that it has been subjected to persecution similar in many ways to Freemasonry and that the similarities between the fraternity and the religion are irrelevant for all intents and purposes."
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:46:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By not_by_works: is there any truth to this? I'm curious because it's well documented. link: probe.org/docs/masonry
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Cliff Notes?
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:14:37 AM EDT
Wicca is like 40 years old... do the Masons have a time machine too?
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:36:23 AM EDT
Okay guys, here's the problem. Every time there is a discussion about Masonry, we have Masons assure us that it is not a religion. (BTW, I don't believe it is.) That is all well and good. They assure us that religion isn't even discussed at the Lodge. That is also true. But then someone always can't resist and inserts their religious beliefs into the discussion. My friend HiramRanger, who I respect and agree with on most issues, couldn't resist this time. He said:
Masonry is not a religion, it does not have its own God. The Great architect of the universe is a reference to the benevolent spirit that is the very core of the Christian faith [red]and many of the world's other great religions. The God of the Christian, Jew and Muslim are the same[/red]... the interpretations of teachings and obligations are where the differences are found.
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This is not correct. The Christian God is not the same as allah. Allah is a demon. He was originally the Moon God of the arabs. Jesus said that any that worship other gods are lost. So as not to hijack this thread, I won't go deeper into a religious discussion. But if you want to talk about Masonry and brag about the many fine things that Lodges do, then that is great. You may convince some to want to join and also do these good works. But leave the religious discussions out, or Christians like me and others (you know who they are) will be duty-bound to correct errors. Now back to your regular discussion.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 11:08:22 AM EDT
What do you mean at least they're leaving the cops alone for a change???!!! I've been on a two front war now for the past several days!!!!!not actually a war, but you know what I mean. A lot of heated exchanges perhaps....
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 2:07:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 2:12:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jetlag: Wicca is like 40 years old... do the Masons have a time machine too?
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Wicca is not a rinky dink club but its a growing organization especially in my generation.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 2:21:12 PM EDT
This is not a place for this type of discussion, I have probably been a Mason longer than you have been alive, but I sure as hell don't discuss it like this, and I don't appreciate it on your part. If you are interested I suggest you ask someone local to you, and not try to ask questions that can not be answered in this manner.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 2:22:59 PM EDT
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