He has, we are not listening....look around. You know the "Feeling" in the air before a large violent storm??

It is times like this that I am ashamed to be associated with some of my fellow ARFCOMers. [banghead]

This whole debate is simply asinine.

To those who say that only feeling dictate when life begins, you're stupid for applying that to this case, and here's why: The baby is able to live on it's own. Except, instead of being allowed to live, it's brains are sucked out.

To those saying that the government shouldn't legislate in this area because it is a "moral" issue, you're stupid, and here's why: Killing a grown adult is a moral issue as well, but it's also a human rights issue. I don't know of any Libertarians who think that we have the right to infringe on a grown adult's rights by killing him or her. Likewise, we don't have the right to infringe on a baby's rights by killing him or her.

To those who say that this procedure needs to be allowed because it is used to save the mother's life. Maybe. AFAIK, that provision is written into the law. If not, it will probably be overturned just like the last time. (When a state's anti-partial birth law was overturned for not having this provision)

Now, on a somewhat different, but related, topic: Why does everyone say that abortion is murder but that killing an abortion doctor is murder as well? Let me prefix this by saying that I don't kill abortion doctors because I'm afraid of going to jail. However, from a strictly ethical standpoint, killing an abortion doctor is like killing a man who is holding a gun to a woman's head and getting ready to pull the trigger. It's not murder, it's defending the innocent who are unable to defend themselves.

The above is just MHO.

Oh yeah, and, [b]I.B.T.L.![/b] [bounce]

That is a natural part of nature, not an act committed in full knowledge that a human life is being snuffed out.

...and I can guarantee you that procedures exist to help women prevent miscarriages in the hope of saving the baby. My wife spent six months in bed when pregnant with our second daughter. By doing so, she saved her and allowed her to live. Are you suggesting that, since abortion is legal, we should have not even tried to save her?

If so, then boy am I glad [b]I'm[/b] her father, and not you!

While we're at it, why don't we ban rain too... did you know there are floods every year?

Oh, tornados, those DEFINITELY need to be banned.

How does your argument compare? A naturally occuring instance is somehow the same as a CHOICE made to murder a baby who is halfway delivered?

Until someone learns to control/manipulate the laws of physics, there's no point in banning anything that happens naturally/on it's own.

You've GOT to have a better argument than that, right? Ban nature? Why not ban guns (since they must have a mind of their own, too)? [rolleyes]

[lol]

Sorry, Steenky! I didn't read all the way down before posting!

I guess great minds think alike! [beer]

Wow!  That's incredibly assinine!

I was merely replying to the post regarding conception - don't try to push the limits of my comments beyond how they were intended.

We clearly have different opinions on the subject - I believe mine are based on fact and your's on emotion, but then again, don't you think that way about anti-gunners?  I still think it's an interesting parallel.

You know Liberty, you and I may not agree on some things, but I'll be damned if sometimes you don't just NAIL it dead-center....

Yes, I feel it. But oddly enough, for the first time in a LOOOOOOONG time, I actually feel it may get better. Let's pray. Even incremental improvements are welcome!

[b]"We hold these truths.........that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these is Life...."[/b]

The Founders thought "Life" was worth a mention, as "Inalienable"......





Case Closed.....

It cannot be defended or supported. It is simply one of those subjective areas that must be placed into the hands of the mother. After all, law or no law, it didn't stop abortion before and it will not stop abortion again.



Where did I say anything about judgemental? That's your word. I was thinking more along the lines of Christians not having the ability to simply apply their faith to their own lives and not create laws that interfere with mine.




I also agree with this. This is why it has no business even being considered by public administration of any form.



Because all of those instances interfere with the life, pursuit and happiness in a violent manner with a clearly defined, independent life that is not defined in a subjective fashion.

Umm, this thread is about whether it should be legal or not to suck the brains out of a full-term baby at the moment it's being delivered.

What in the fuck are YOU talking about? [whacko]

DNA? Cell division? What in the hell does that have to do with crushing the skull of a 40-week old fetus as it passes the birth canal during labor?

Good thinking. Excellent.

Because, whether we like it or not, abortion is legal in this country, and as such the comparison you cite is invalid.

I wish abortion was banned in all but the fewest of circumstances, but the killing of abortion doctors does NOTHING to advance that goal, and in fact causes it great harm.

I understand the logic of your position, but just as we feel morality must constrain the other side, morality must also constrain ours.

As is the case in so many things these days, we in the right are forced to fight with restrictions the other side does not respect or allow themselves to be burdened by. That's what comes from wearing the White Hat.

I'm gonna go ahead and put myself out here on this one, I agree with you about the murder the "doctor" thing.  I do not, have not, and will not be involved in any activity of the sort, but I must admit, I regard it as news that a roach has been exterminated when I hear of those involved in the wholesale murder, abortion, business, have been hurt/killed by someone.  I just can't cry a tear for 'em, the same as if I hear of a criminal being shot in the commission of a crime.  We all cheer, and rightfully so, when we hear of a perp being killed by a homeowner when he is committing a crime, yet we are supposed to feel this horror and indignation at the news of murder workers being hurt/killed?  It just doesn't make any sense.  Allow me to reiterate, I DO NOT CONDONE any activity of this sort, but it could hardly be deemed "unprovoked", now could it?  Flame suit ON!

Oh? How so? Please cite my emotionalism....

The point is.... something based on such subjective arguments on EITHER side of the fence has no place in a legislative forum.

There was a day and time astronomers were burned for being heretics.... after all, the Christians of that day knew that God created a flat world.

This is my only point.

Personally, I am against abortion for my own circumstance. Bet you are surprised to hear that.

I just try to play devil's advocate to try and formulate some basis for the position other than emotion.

I am very proud to say that my wife (and every other female member of my family) would never allow a doctor to intentionally kill her unborn baby to save her own life.  That would be the most gutless, heartless act imaginable and how anybody could live on knowing they killed their baby to save their own life is way beyond the comprehension of any sane person.

Do I want to lose my wife on the delivery table?  No!  Or any other family member for that matter.  But I'm not going to favor killing one human to save another either.  The simple fact is that doctors F'up all the time.  Doctors are NEVER sure about ANYTHING.  They may BELIEVE that a woman may die but that is strictly their OPINION.  I've heard tons of stories about how the OPINIONS of doctors were dead wrong, pun intended.

With abortion, the infant will definitely be killed without a doubt.  There is no way this can be a better alternative when only GOD knows for sure if the mother is going to die or not.  Did you hear me?  I said God!!!  Doctors like to play god, but they are not, nor will they ever be God!  Since they don't know for sure that the mother will die, they should not be allowed to kill the baby to save the mother.

My supervisor and friend Jerry told me a VERY interesting story about his sister-in-law.  They were told by the ALL-KNOWING DOCTORS to abort their baby because the ultrasound showed all kinds of developmental problems and that the baby would never survive outside the womb.  They took the advice and aborted it.  Well guess what, the baby was extracted and found to be in a perfectly healthy condition.  That baby was killed for absolutely no reason except for the opinion of some stupid fool with a diploma on the wall from a medical school.

Another friend of mine was told a similar story from the doctors, but they chose to have faith that the doctors were wrong (or that God would give them a miracle).  The baby was born with some fluid in his lungs and had to be in the hospital for a few weeks.  Happily, he is now home with an absolute clean bill of health.  Knowing the complete story, I personally believe they got their miracle!

There are many, many stories out there just like these.  Doctors are imperfect and everyone should take their opinions as such.  I'm a civil engineer.  Does that mean I make perfect decisions about streets, highways, bridges, culverts, water & sewer systems, etc.  Hell no it doesn't.  We do the very best we can with each of our individual professions, but we all make mistakes.  When your talking about something as delicate and precious as human life, you just can't gamble one life for another and that is exactly what partial birth abortion does.

You pro-choicers are SICK!

BBURN

Wow, What a bunch of sheeple![V]
Abortion is murder?[rolleyes] pure christian cult propaganda crap. With all the "supposed"  intelect on this board, surely someone has a legitimate arguement that doesn't reley on uneducated, unsubstantiated parables from some fraudulent book of fiction?

how about some more "you can regulate my body, but you can't have my guns" posts!
christian pukes[puke]

      hey BenDover: when you refer to "cramming a subjective legislation based on the moral platform of a religeous nature",then please explain this: if the laws against murder, theft, rape,destruction of someone's property, etc. did not have a religeous origin, then where did we get them ? also,if you say that there is no such thing as absolute truth, then isn't that an absolute statement and collapses under its own weight??

Almost scary how similar some of our responses are... considering they're not the cookie cutter usual replies that are given in this kinda debate.

Scary in a good way [;)]

TCN

I agree with you 100%

Beforee this goes off track any further

[size=24][red]THIS THREAD ISA BOUT PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION NOT "WHEN IS LIFE CREATED"[/red][size]

That is all

You just defended it...



Well, SHIT! In that case, let's get rid of ALL laws and live in anarchy because, as we all know, laws are BROKEN despite their being passed!

Right-leaning [red]moralists[/red] BELIEVE they have the answer which is their stock answer to any and all 'unanswerable' questions. Which is perfectly acceptable for their own basis and intent to govern their own behavior. However, I don't believe they have all the answers because I am skeptical about the fantasy deity figure. Therefore, [red]cramming a subjective legislation down my throat which is entirely constructed on the moral platform of a religious nature[/red].... I GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT!

See, that's what's wrong with most [red]so-called[/red] Christians. Their [red]evangelical nature gives them the ignorant, hyperactive ego, and consequently the belief that their moral solution is better than mine or any other moral solution.[/red] When it comes to themselves, they are indeed correct. Try to write it into a law for everyone? You're no better than an anti-gunner pushing nanny government on everyone.

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You're right, you weren't being judemental. Just rudely insulting. My mistake.

I was thinking more along the lines of Christians not having the ability to simply apply their faith to their own lives and not create laws that interfere with mine.

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That's because they believe in things greater than themselves. Since you seem to be so eager to equate pro-lifers with anti-gunners, may I remind you that it's the anti-gunners who use the "your practice of RKBA affects MY safety, and as such I can regulate or remove YOUR right" argument.

I also agree with this. This is why it has no business even being considered by public administration of any form.

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I'd be willing to accept an absolute silence on the part of the government, rather than the trash heap of "Constitutional interpretation" we currently "enjoy".

Because all of those instances interfere with the life, pursuit and happiness in a violent manner with a clearly defined, independent life that is not defined in a subjective fashion.

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So what? Whose morality am I violating? If I think it's right, who are YOU to tell me I'm wrong?

Also, doesn't a child that can live outside the womb classify as a "clearly defined, independent life that is not defined in a subjective fashion."?

What are you talking about? Apparantly, you havn't been paying attention.

The argument is that it's wrong to kill a person who is alive (ie, living without life support, such is the case on a partial birth abortion). I havn't seen to many Bible quotes. You're one of the few to mention such a thing in this thread.

Using your logic, I guess you don't ming if someone comes to your house and kills [i]you[/i]?

Wow dude, thing about holding your viewpoint is, you had better HOPE you're right, eh?

Tell ya what, I'll chnage my opinion on abortion when I can get a "pro-abortioner" to go ahead and admit to me, that, following their own logic, it is OK to unplug those on machines when they are a burden, kill those who are imperfect, an annoyance, etc.  Hell, why limit it to in the womb?  Let's just make all murders OK, as long as you feel good about it, and the debate will be over.

And Notack, it is possible to be fervently against abortion, and not particularly pious, example: Me.  It's a matter of right and wrong, not Christian dogma.  I'm out now, I won't change any minds, and nobody will change mine.  We'll just let Karma sort it all out.

Just the other day, I'm pretty sure you were ranting about how drivers ought to be BANNED from using cell-phones while driving.

Interesting...

BTW- Yup, actually yesterday:  [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=189568[/url]

A fetus is viable, able to live and breathe independantly at 24 weeks.

That it is inherently and self-evidently "murder" to intentionally crush the skull of a viable, full-term fetus as it passes the birth canal is confusing to you?

Pearls to swine to try convincing you in that case.

Do you need a legitimate arguement to believe that the right to keep and bear arms is "good" too? Or is that self-evident to you (but not most antis).

And by the way, WHO brought up "Christian faith" here as a reason to oppose infanticide? So where do you get off saying that it's because of "Christian" fairytales that people oppose killing viable, full-term fetuses during labor?

I oppose it because it's self-evidently an abhorrent form of infanticide.

As I said above, I'd prefer silence on the issue rather than the legislative tripe (read: judicial activism) we currently have.



A truly sad time in the history of Christianity, and one that has been left well behind, and good riddance.



Yes, it does! I'm glad to hear it, though!



Okay, I've yet to be told where my argument has been emotional. In fact, I've not based my argument on religion either (other than to defend Christianity in general). I've based it on a reasoned eexamination of easily measurable FACTS and some logic.

But, since you claim to be emotion-free in this case, and yet you are STILL against abortion, I'm curious as to what "your circumstances" are? I'd love to add to the arsenal of logic I already have to evicerate Liberals...

BTW, I'm not calling anyone here a Liberal. I wouldn't sink THAT low! [;)]

You're too funny. Nobody here (except you) has brought up the Bible, nor anything to do with Christianity supporting abortion or against it.

How about you read up on this here Christian's ideas that drugs/alcohol should be legal, provided you're not effecting anyone else in the process. Now why would someone who thinks you should be able to do whatever you want to destroy your body be trying to "control your body" by not allowing you to have an abortion?

Hmm, probably has a lot to do with the earlier comment by Paul on how he's never heard a pro-abortionist asking for any scientific proof for when life starts.

If you don't think a partially delivered baby is a human, then I'd like to see what you'd say if someone took a basebal bat to your stomach when you are pregnant (or your wife, if that's the case), killing your unborn not-baby (according to you).

How does the mothers decision one way or another make the difference between killing a human and removing a mass of flesh, bone and organs from her body? (This mass happens to be structured exactly like a human, tho... and has it's own DNA, heartbeat and blood)

So I guess mothers can now use this jedi mind-trick to cause the human baby to become non-human at her whim, until the baby is born... at which point, her jedi mind powers no longer effect the baby, right?

Altho I am very pro-life... Until it's made illegal to murder unborn babies, perhaps we should start by making all abortions include the removal of the womans reproductive organs, so she'll never have the chance to murder another of her unborn [s]responsibilities[/s] babies.

I remember a case I heard of a while back. A pregnant woman had been diagnosed with cancer, and in order to begin the chemo that could save her life, she would have to have an abortion because the chemo would kill the fetus. The woman chose to have the baby and fight the cancer later, even though she was told that the chances of her survival afterwards were greatly reduced.

Now you can argue all you want that to bring a child into this world and then deny it of its mother is a cold act, but I think the amount of love, as well as the raw courage, displayed by this woman was superhuman. I remember crying my eyes out because I know I'd probably have sacrificed my child to save my wife, and I know it would have been the WRONG thing to do.

Again, I thank God that I have never been tested in that manner.



Don't be so sure. There's a lawsuit going on right now where an abortion doctor F'd up and the "aborted" child LIVED. She's a teenager now. Yikes. Poor kid has had something on the order of 30+ operations to fix what the incompetent "doctor" did!

Here's another example of a non-judgemental individual sticking it to us whaskally Chwistians!

An eloquent argument, NoTack! Bravo! Your logic does us all proud!

Edited to add: Seeing as NoTack has decided it is best to roundly insult the people he doesn't agree with, as well as the millions upon millions of people who believe the Christ is the Son of God, rather than try to compose a logical argument for his position, I will reluctantly offer an IBTL.

Too bad, really. It was a stimulating discussion...

IBTL..goin to get ugly..lol

DAMN it, Steenky! STOP THAT! [:D]

I cannot believe I actually just read a post where someone is advocating no wait im sorry not advocating exactly but more like cheering from the sidelines for the killing of abortion doctors.

its always good to see how low humanity can sink to give you a good idea of how you aren't so bad.

this argument is retarded.
the people having this argument are retarded.
those that try to force their opinions about "god" and how abortion makes baby jesus cry are retarded.

there is a reason these are called hot button issues,

no one ever changes anyone's mind it just goes round and round.

unfuckingbelievable

Sure, condemn those who would kill to save someone elses life. But, God forbid, you ever have to kill in order to save [i]your own[/i] life, and you'll probably be on here telling us what a justified shoot it was. Selfish...

Just MHO.

Hold on fella's personal attacks go by IM (tell em to Fook off all ya want [;)]) lets keep this thread going a little further, unless of course we're all out of arguements. (I know I'm not)

Wow, what a well reasoned truly though out post that was! [rolleyes] If you're not going to add anything to the debate other than proving you're a fool would you kindly not reply? Thanks so much.

Perhaps you should have kept reading and seen that someone on THEIR side of the argument told them why they were wrong to think that way...

Yes, it's an emotional issue that literaly involves life and death, so opinions run the gamut and run HOT. Sometimes, the good folks just need to be nudged to prevent their passions from getting away from them. Others (the ones who go out and actually DO those terrible acts) need to be caged like the animals they are. Don't confuse the two.

what was the final vote today?

[V]

[b]Four pages[/b] and STILL no one has come up with any scientific, medical or logical reason or condition to support the belief that intentionally sucking the brain out of a [red][b]viable, able-to-survive-on-its-own, FULL-TERM fetus[/b][/red] during labor is a RIGHT that should be protected.

And yet the Christophobes, the ignoramuses and the rabidly illogical nitwits here STILL continue to spew shit about DNA, the Bible, "choice", gun-control and everything under the sun EXCEPT the [b]FACT[/b] that they are supporting the right to intentionally crush the skull of a [b][red]viable, FULL-TERM fetus[/b][/red] at the moment it is being delivered.


[V]

well your opinion is just that.

the difference being that if you bomb an abortion clinic (becuase hell think of all those innocent lives you would save)
it is (stay with me now) [b]ILLEGAL[/b]

but If i kill someone that is threatening my life it is what the laws call [b]justifiable[/b] in that i was protecting my own life from harm. THAT'S RIGHT ISN'T IT CRAZY, IM WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE LAW!

of course i would say it is justified,

but I guarantee you come on here saying how you shot an abortion doctor and the feds would be a little less leniant (you know becuase of that whole taking someone's life knowing full well what you were doing without reasonable cause for bodily harm.)

You didn't actually expect to see any, did you?

C'mon, OmegaMan, you know better than that! [slap]



I like that! Your permission to use it, please!

Ghost,

I'm sure John knows that, and would never act out his thoughts. I think what he may be trying to say is that he finds little pity for the "doctors" who do these procedures who are targetted, rather than he openly praises the people that go against him.

Frankly, I think his passion is getting the better of him. May I suggest you nudge him in the right direction rather than slamming him (and by extension, all of us) without mercy. You might be surprised at the results...

well then, let me put in my $.02

Partial Birth Abortion is a buzzword created to garner more sympathy because lets face it
it sounds more terrible than a third trimester abortion.

having said that.

I am for this particular law.

Let me reiterate, I don't participate in killing abortion "doctors," nor do I have plans to participate in such. However, I don't condemn those that do. Killing in order to save an innocent life is justifiable. If the law made it illegal to kill for self defense, you think you wouldn't be justified in doing so? Some people believe that certain rights transcend government. They're called inalienable. I think the people who wrote the Constitution said something about them...

Hmmm

Christian??

NOPE!

Actually I am a devote Athiest....

I am also anti baby killing..

Go figure!

I regret that I disagree with my friend John here in that those who commit these acts are condemnable because they are using violence to stop a lawful procedure THAT IS NOT DIRECTLY AFFECTING THEM OR THEIRS.

HOWEVER, the day some bitch decides to go get an abortion against the wishes of the child's father, and that father guns down tha abortionist who is about to kill that father's child, THAT'S the day I'll stand up and say "Hey! He was defending his own!"

Exteme? Maybe. But even more extreme is killing children for a living. Last time that happened we had mass military tribunals and executions of the guilty. Now we call them "brave". Go figure...

I realize of course that emotions get a little heated in these type of arguments and I was by no means trying to insinuate that John would actually kill someone. I have never met the guy.
I did not mean to slam everyone.

My point is that right now in america These "Doctors" are doing there jobs. They get paid.

They do not clock in in the morning put in a hard eight hours of killing unborn babies, and then clock out.
They are there doing the best to avoid abortions, such as health screenings, birth control, condoms. becuaseas much as we all say, well if you do not want a baby, don't screw. people still have sex.

Im sure there is no doctor in the world (well its a broad statement but still)
that clocks in and says
"All right!, time to go kill me some fetuses, Thats the best part of the day."

Im sure they hate it, regret it, and do not enjoy doing it, but still it comes with the job, just like telling families that a loved one did not make it.

They are not your enemies. fight the laws you do not like not the people.

Again sory if anyone felt slammed I was just incredulous.

Well, folks, it's been indescribably delicious conversing with you all but I have to go home and take care of the [baby][baby]. They were fortunate enough to have made it into this world the normal way, rather than through a vacuum hose.

Those of you with children, yet who support unregulated abortion, should go home and take a good hard look at what the price of "choice" is, especially when it's done because the adults in charge are being just plain irresponsible, cowardly, and selfish...

See ya tomorrow, unless the KeyMaster shows up!

[wave] Bye!

I'm just so glad to have the government making yet another decision for me. I'm not likely to ever need an abortion (let alone a partial birth) but I'd like to think I don't need to consult the government regarding personal decisions. And if you don't approve of abortion, don't get one.

I'm not all that wild about this ban.

More rights taken away.

They can kill their babies, we can keep our guns.  Freedom is a two way street.  We've got ours, they've got theirs.  Their freedom is being taken away, and someone over here cheers?

Many people feel the same way about every gun you own. And just as we allow the government to pass this law, they will permit the one regarding your guns.

Nice.

And if you don't approve of child abuse, don't have children.[rolleyes]