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Posted: 6/3/2003 9:43:57 AM EDT
Hopefully the situation will never arise, but I would like to know just in case. If I am armed and confront an intruder in my home, and he surrendered to me, instead of running or fighting, what should I do? Obviously I would want to keep some distance, make him keep his hands visable, and and watch him very carefully. From a safety and legal standpoint, how should I contain him until the police arrive? Would it be best to simply hold him at gun point, or should I attempt to lock him in a windowless room, or should I keep some flex-cuffs around. What is the best way to minimzie the threat and minimze the chance of B.S. charges or lawsuits being filed against me?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:04:20 AM EDT
Shoot him in the leg [;D] I dont know the real answer, but I am going to attempt to hold him at gunpoint assuming 911 has been called already. I would not try to restrain him.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:12:20 AM EDT
If s/he's on his feet get him/her off his/her feet. As long as they're standin they remain a threat to you. im not a lawyer or LEO but i am speaking from experiance.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:21:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 10:23:31 AM EDT by ScaryBlackGuns]
This is a difficult question. First of all, I don't know how much of an opportunity I would give a criminal to surrender once they have entered the confines of my house. Please understand that I do not like the idea of killing another human (even if it is a scum bag), but I will not hesitate in any situation that threatens my family. If the B.G. is down the hall at a distance of +20 feet I would be willing to warn him first, but I do not believe in deploying deadly force as a wish and a prayer. If the B.G. has surrendered I would not approach any closer than 10-15 feet, so that leaves out cuffing him or stuffing him in a closet. Above all you do not want to lose your weapon to the scum or your force advantage (gun v. knife, bat, crowbar, etc.) by coming into his zone. Have someone call the cops while keeping your sight on center mass with finger on the trigger. Legally, you have detained the guy in any of the situations gunpoint, closet, or cuffs. It is possible to incur civil liability for false arrest by detaining someone on the street through force or the threat of force. The question is, "Is the detention of the individual justified, and was the amount of force used justified under the circumstances?" Depending on the state in which you live the legal answer to your question would probably be "yes" to all three, but only one would appear to be the correct tactical answer for a civilian defending his home and family. SBG
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:22:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:24:14 AM EDT
Just shoot him and you won't have to mess with it.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:28:01 AM EDT
Not being sure of the laws of your state, I would asume they are generally the same as I am aware of. First, if he is in your residence without your permission, and he forced his way in, he has committed a felony. You should have the right to use what force needed to detain him for a felony committed in your presence and detain for the police. Once you detain him, you have deprived him of his freedom and you are liable. Second you have the right to defend your well being. For your safety, I would suggest that he be placed on the floor spread eagle until police arrive. Any unwarranted use of force once he surrenders to you would not be in your best interest legally.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:29:56 AM EDT
We teach our officers not to handcuff a suspect alone in most instances (all though there are a few control positions that are somewhat effective). Best course is usually to wait for back-up. You will probably have a pretty rapid response if that call would ever happen.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:36:59 AM EDT
DON'T EVER TRY TO HANDCUFF SOMEONE. It is extremely dangerous if you are not well trained. Even then, it is dangerous. It's best to wait for backup. Once you enter the cuff zone, you'd be really surprised at how quickly someone can turn on you and mess your world up before you have them in cuffs. Some people in prison and on the street would practice quick turn arounds with a knife while officers had them up against the wall for a Terry pat-down. They were quick as hell.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 12:52:16 PM EDT
Ok, so say I have a "person" detained spread eagle in the hall in front of my bedroom and I am in the room. How do I get to the door to let the cops in? Let guy up and have him walk clear? Have bad guy open door(this one is a joke)? Let cops kick down door( I know it would be the BG fault as it was a result of is illegal activity but HTF am I going to go back to sleep with no front door)?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:19:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:36:01 PM EDT
What shotar said. I am an LEO and I have responded to this type of call. I tell people that if you find yourself in this situation to do the following. 1. Have the BG either sitting on his/her legs as shotar suggested or have them lay flat on their belly with arms spread and hands facing up. 2. Do not approach them. 3. Tell them to not look at you. This gives you a large mental and physical advantage. 4. Tell them in plane words that you will defend yourself and that you intend to turn him/her over to the police as soon as they get there. And sure as hell do not use any racially biased words or phrases when you speak to them. These will bight you in the ass later. 4. Make sure they have an escape route. That way, if they freak out they have some place to go that is not through you. (This is the liability thing. If you do shoot the BG his family will claim he was defending himself from you. If there is an escape route available you can always point this out in court showing who the aggressor was.)
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:37:11 PM EDT
Why put your self at greater risk? Tell him to get the hell out or you'll open fire. “holding” an intruder while the police arrive creates a dangerous environment for all parties. End the encounter as quickly as possible. The longer a home owner is “holding” an intruder, the longer he has to think, form a plan, and execute. That will spell disaster for one or both parties. Dump the emotion and think tactically. The shortest path to controlling a hostile environment might simply be tell the threat to leave. I would guess most intruders would relish the chance to get out once they have lost control or have been had. Furthermore, and contrary to popular belief, your are not automatically in the free and clear if you shoot someone in your own house. Strong case maybe, but not clear. Very few prosecutors will put their career on the line and exonerate you. Right or wrong your still going to a grand jury 9 time out of 10.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:51:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32: Right or wrong your still going to a grand jury 9 time out of 10.
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Maybe where YOU live[;D]
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:54:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32: Why put your self at greater risk? Tell him to get the hell out or you'll open fire. “holding” an intruder while the police arrive creates a dangerous environment for all parties. End the encounter as quickly as possible. The longer a home owner is “holding” an intruder, the longer he has to think, form a plan, and execute. That will spell disaster for one or both parties.
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So when comes back to your house wanting revenge or he wants that shiny gun that you had pointed at him last time, that's not putting yourself at greater risk? I'd rather not give him that option, or the option to rob someone else the next night.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:15:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:56:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: So when comes back to your house wanting revenge or he wants that shiny gun that you had pointed at him last time, that's not putting yourself at greater risk? I'd rather not give him that option, or the option to rob someone else the next night.
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So let me test my understanding; you would shoot a [i]surrendering[/i] intruder to reduce your risk of him coming back, yet you don’t consider jail time or paying this guy or his family fifty cents or every dollar you make for the rest of your life a risk? Although you did not say it I’ll assume you intend to kill him, so now you have executed a surrendering intruder. Good luck with the grand jury. Allowing an intruder to exit is also a risk, as you have pointed out. However no jury is going to accept “I feared he might come back some day so I executed him on the spot”. I know, I know, you’d never actually SAY that, you’d have your story straight and you’d sail right through the legal system… The prosecutor will put it like that or worse.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:06:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32: So let me test my understanding; you would shoot a [i]surrendering[/i] intruder to reduce your risk of him coming back, yet you don’t consider jail time or paying this guy or his family fifty cents or every dollar you make for the rest of your life a risk? Although you did not say it I’ll assume you intend to kill him, so now you have executed a surrendering intruder. Good luck with the grand jury. Allowing an intruder to exit is also a risk, as you have pointed out. However no jury is going to accept “I feared he might come back some day so I executed him on the spot”. I know, I know, you’d never actually SAY that, you’d have your story straight and you’d sail right through the legal system… The prosecutor will put it like that or worse.
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You need to test your understanding a little better. [;)] No, I'm suggesting that you DO hold a suspect for the police to take into custody. Of course if he doesn't surrender, or attempts to fight you, then you use deadly force if you have to. And yes, I understand that the perp may wish to come back to do you harm after his little jail session, but at least by then, you will know his face, his name and other important facts, so you can be prepared for him. Not to mention that the police will be on to him, so next time he shows up at your door, noone will question your use of force. The way I feel is if you let him go, you are partially responsible for anyone he hurts in the future. Not to mention that he's got into your house once, why not try again? In his mind, you didn't have the balls to shoot him (or even hold him for the cops) the first time, so why would you shoot him now?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:11:16 PM EDT
I have a book about that kind of stuff: 1. have the perp place his hands behind his head, with fingers interlocked 2. then have perp cross his legs, sit on feet while in a kneeling position
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:23:53 PM EDT
In a post home invasion grand jury hearing I will be the only witness heard. No use in confusing the issue.....
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:26:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 3:27:47 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Good advise from several. Especially markl32. Don't get caught up in emotionalism. The whole purpose is to protect you and your family. If he surrenders and obeys the command to lay down and wait for the police, fine. Don't talk with him. Don't approach him. Another thing to think about....What if he gets up and just runs away? Would you shoot him to keep him there? You better not! Your only defense to shooting someone is: "I was in fear of my life." If he's running away, that defense won't work. Remember: "Drop the weapon!!" (Shoot if necessary.) "I was in fear of my life." "I want to talk to my lawyer." That's all you need to remember or say to anyone except your lawyer.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:30:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: You need to test your understanding a little better. No, I'm suggesting that you DO hold a suspect for the police to take into custody. Of course if he doesn't surrender, or attempts to fight you, then you use deadly force if you have to.
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I have mistaken you! My apologies. Perhaps I am over sensitive to the myth one can kill with impunity inside his own house. So our only difference is hold perp vs. let him escape. You make good points there. I have no training or ability on how to apprehend an intruder. Sure, I can scrap fairly well, but that’s a dangerous game in this situation. I suppose If I was going to hold an intruder I’d do it at gun point and from a distance. Even that is asking for trouble in my book. I am inclined to de-escalate as quick as possible. I second the previous post that the most dangerous spot is between an intruder and escape. My apologies again HKocher.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:53:06 PM EDT
I have no problem killing an intruder who is a threat. If he is not an immediate threat it would not be worth the mess and trouble to shoot him anyway. 64gr. Power Point Plus + Human Brain= big ass mess on walls and carpet. If the guy surrenders before I shoot him how do I detain him while I call the police? I live alone, and there is no one else to call the cops while I hold down on him. It seems like it would be a good idea to clear the rest of the house to check for other perps. What about ordering him, at rifle point, from a distance, into a closet and then locking it and wedging it shut. Then I could quickly check for other BGs and call the cops.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:50:55 PM EDT
The best way to deal with a person with a gun is to say, "I know you're upset." Compassion is the answer. They are human beings and want the same things I do. Try to be compassionate with them and relate to them. --- JESSICA FLAG, MILLION MOTHERS' MARCH cynic
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