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Posted: 6/3/2003 6:42:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/4/2003 2:44:50 PM EDT by triburst1]
My girl is moving out of an apt. with 2 other girls and into her own place. I want to get her a gun for home defense. She enjoys shooting, mainly .22s, but doesn't get to very often. I was thinking of a pistol caliber carbine, for increased hit probability. The Kel-Tec Sub2000 is light, small, not too loud, and has almost no recoil. The 124gr. +p 9mm HPs, from a 16" barrel, are equal to a 4-6" .357 mag. What do you guys think? Opinions from female members would be be very helpful.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 6:47:48 AM EDT
how about a .410 or 20 gauge pump shotgun? ruger .40 S&W carbine or a marlin lever gun loaded with .44 specials.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 6:50:56 AM EDT
Thanks 308wood. Those are all good ideas, but I'll probably stick with a semi-auto of some type 'cuz its all she's ever shot.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 6:55:28 AM EDT
Since you asked for opinions... I am an NRA Instructor for Personal Defense (among other things), ex-LEO, and have trained a number of ladies to shoot. The best weapon for a lady that is not a true "gun person", is a .38 Special revolver. Not to appear as prejudiced, but when most ladies are frightened, they do not remember how to work a semi-automatic weapon. With a revolver, all you have to remember is to point and pull the trigger. Many men get their girl friends what they (the men) like or think would be neat to have. The girls need a simple revolver. When she's scared out of her wits, she doesn't need a complicated weapon. Get her a revolver.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 6:55:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 7:00:12 AM EDT by 308wood]
ok, just make sure she has a semi that never jams. maybe a [url=http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=6301&return=Y]Deerfield Carbine[/url] [img]http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/30L.gif[/img] or a mini 30. not the most accurate gun in the world but a close range man stopper. if you can fight with a rifle use a rifle don't handicap her with a .38 S&W "ladies special" they are shitty for home defense.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:04:00 AM EDT
Get her a big heavy .357 mag revolver like a Ruger GP100. Take her shooting, but use .38 special wadcutters. Zero recoil, and she'll love it. When the gun sits on her nightstand, make sure it has .357 mag ammo in it. She won't know the difference in a panic situation, but will have awesome power to unleash if needed. My reason for suggesting a revolver is the same as the above post. Keep it simple, keep it reliable.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:04:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: Since you asked for opinions... I am an NRA Instructor for Personal Defense (among other things), ex-LEO, and have trained a number of ladies to shoot. The best weapon for a lady that is not a true "gun person", is a .38 Special revolver. Not to appear as prejudiced, but when most ladies are frightened, they do not remember how to work a semi-automatic weapon. With a revolver, all you have to remember is to point and pull the trigger. Many men get their girl friends what they (the men) like or think would be neat to have. The girls need a simple revolver. When she's scared out of her wits, she doesn't need a complicated weapon. Get her a revolver.
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I have heard that before as a common reccomendation. I made the mistake of letting her shoot a S&W model 37 with light defense loads once. She fired 1 round and would shoot it no more. A heavier, midsize one might work though. Like a 4" 65 with .38 +p's maybe?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:06:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art: Get her a big heavy .357 mag revolver like a Ruger GP100. Take her shooting, but use .38 special wadcutters. Zero recoil, and she'll love it. When the gun sits on her nightstand, make sure it has .357 mag ammo in it. She won't know the difference in a panic situation, but will have awesome power to unleash if needed.
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I was thinking that too. The S&W 65 has a nice heavy barrel, but still has a manageable frame.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:10:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 7:17:19 AM EDT by Richardson]
Originally Posted By triburst1:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: The best weapon for a lady that is not a true "gun person", is a .38 Special revolver.
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I have heard that before as a common reccomendation. I made the mistake of letting her shoot a S&W model 37 with light defense loads once. She fired 1 round and would shoot it no more. A heavier, midsize one might work though. Like a 4" 65 with .38 +p's maybe?
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In agreement..... I took my wife shooting once. She tried a Makarov, a S&W .38spl Model 36, and a Ruger MkII 22lr. She only enjoyed the Ruger, because the others had too much recoil. Soooooo.... I bought a used S&W .38spl Model 10 with a heavy barrel. For practice, using standard ammo, it is a pussy-cat. With +P hollow points it still doesn't recoil much. It's a bit large in her hands, but she's not scared of it. Now I've got to get her out shooting a bit more, just for fun. http://www.kyimports.com/sw.htm#s&w Richardson
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:13:31 AM EDT
I have heard that before as a common reccomendation. I made the mistake of letting her shoot a S&W model 37 with light defense loads once. She fired 1 round and would shoot it no more. A heavier, midsize one might work though. Like a 4" 65 with .38 +p's maybe?
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Yep, do as Dragracer_Art suggested. Use light wadcutters for practice. I would recommend a light weight .38 Spec +P for business like a hot 125 gr. JHP. As he said, she doesn't need to practice with the real loads. When she is scared, she won't notice the recoil or noise.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:19:21 AM EDT
What are the chances of someone who doesn't shoot that often, making solid hits from 20-25ft with a double action revolver in a stress fire situation?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:20:52 AM EDT
Probably a little pricy, but for pistol caliber carbine, I like the HK USC .45 [img]http://www.hkpro.com/usc.jpg[/img] Another good one might be the Ruger 9mm carbine. [img]http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/ruger_pc_carbine.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:24:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art: Get her a big heavy .357 mag revolver like a Ruger GP100. Take her shooting, but use .38 special wadcutters. Zero recoil, and she'll love it. When the gun sits on her nightstand, make sure it has .357 mag ammo in it. She won't know the difference in a panic situation, but will have awesome power to unleash if needed. My reason for suggesting a revolver is the same as the above post. Keep it simple, keep it reliable.
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I agree 100%...This is the exact gun my Wife has (GP 100). She uses .38 +P Rem Golden Saber, VERY little recoil... For a Carbine, she has a Ruger PC9...that little gun is nice, ZERO recoil and not very loud at all! My Wife is set!!!
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:48:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 7:49:31 AM EDT by triburst1]
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Keep 'em coming. If the rain holds off, I plan to take the GF out to soot this afternoon. I have a S&W 65 and a buddy is going to let me borrow his HiPoint 9mm carbine so she can get a general feel for both type of weapons. I am curious to see which one she will like better. I plan to blow through a few 30 rounders through my AR. I will give an update later.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:57:03 AM EDT
hell, let her shoot the AR! a folding stock AR with frangible ammo would be perfect.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:16:00 AM EDT
I have to admit that a revolver would probably be best for reasons specified above. The Ruger GP100 is an awesome pistol!!! Let her try that out. Even with full loaded ammo it doesn't really give a kick. At least that I've noticed. She could probably easily handle it though because when you hold it, it fits so naturally into your hand. Truly a solidy built/designed pistol!
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:22:23 AM EDT
I am also an NRA Instructor, and I completely agree with the suggestion of a S&W Model 10. Practicing with it should not be a problem, as .38 Special is a kind and friendly load. One should always practice with the caliber and gun one uses for self defense. A wheelgun is the BEST, bar none, handgun for a woman who is not an experienced shooter with many years under her belt. No jams... a misfire, you just haul on it again.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:28:44 AM EDT
Home Defense in an apartment? Pistols suck for home defense unless you train with them constantly. Way too much chance to be inaccurate in stressful situations. Note the is for HOME defense not PERSONAL defense. There is a difference there. I wouldnt go with a 'pistol caliber carbine' simply because of the overpentration issue. I wouldnt reccomend a 410 or 20ga simply because if you are going to go with a long gun why not an ar-15? Yes an Ar-15, one in 5.56 x 45 why? They are light they are easy to use and accurate they have next to no recoil makes follow up shots easy they are better in preventing overpentration
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:31:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 45ACP_Marine: I have to admit that a revolver would probably be best for reasons specified above. The Ruger GP100 is an awesome pistol!!! Let her try that out. Even with full loaded ammo it doesn't really give a kick. At least that I've noticed. She could probably easily handle it though because when you hold it, it fits so naturally into your hand. Truly a solidy built/designed pistol!
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Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: I am also an NRA Instructor, and I completely agree with the suggestion of a S&W Model 10. Practicing with it should not be a problem, as .38 Special is a kind and friendly load. One should always practice with the caliber and gun one uses for self defense. A wheelgun is the BEST, bar none, handgun for a woman who is not an experienced shooter with many years under her belt. No jams... a misfire, you just haul on it again.
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What about the S&W 65-3? I already have one of those and it can fire .38s or .357s. I keep it in the storage compartment in my trunk, but rarely shoot it. It is a 4" stainless gun, and very nice, but I am more of a semi-auto guy.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:02:05 AM EDT
That should work fine, Triburst. A 4" barrel is perfect, IMO, less torque in the hand when firing. Stainless is good too, that way if she takes it into the bathroom while she showers, no humidity problems. And yes, one really IS at one's most vulnerable in the shower, think about it, naked and defenseless... a lot of noise to block hearing an intruder. If she practices with .38 Sp, get her .38 Sp defense rounds for the real deal. Although I have no problem with .357, some new shooters may find it a bit much to practice with often.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:10:44 AM EDT
Thanks Hannah.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:21:08 AM EDT
My pleasure, Triburst. See if she would like to post here on the site, we are always glad to see more women post here. There is a Women's Forum both here on the General side, as well as on the Handgun side of the boards.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:26:35 AM EDT
I'll mention it to her, but I doubt that she can find the time. She is a full time student, works 30-35 hours a week, and volunteers several hours a week at a head start center. I appreciate the hospitality though.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 9:34:38 AM EDT
get a Rottweiler: it's a form of protection and comradery at the same time
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:28:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 2:31:11 PM EDT by warlord]
I also endorse the idea of the a revovler. For a person who is a non-shooting afficinodo, more like weekend warrior, a revolver is ideal. I once took a first time shooter to the range, and he kept on limp-wristing my Colt 380 Mustang, every shot was a FTE. Now if you're under stress limp-wristed a pistol, that would be very bad. In the book Black Hawk Down, Mike Durant encountered jamming of his MP5K probably because of injured his arm, he couldn't hold it correctly. The revovler for your lady friend. And maybe a few speedloaders. For me me, even though I like pistols, I do drag out the revolvers from some fun.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:34:27 PM EDT
I am guessing no matter what you reccomend she will want a little tiny 25 pistol, for some reason girls love little things like that, they think its so cute. I would get her a nice german shepard they are very loyal and seem to be protective of the ladies.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:34:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By triburst1: What are the chances of someone who doesn't shoot that often, making solid hits from 20-25ft with a double action revolver in a stress fire situation?
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Probably about the same as the chances someone will be making a 20-25 foot shot in a home defense situation. Pretty slim.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:55:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 2:56:43 PM EDT by warlord]
Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
Originally Posted By triburst1: What are the chances of someone who doesn't shoot that often, making solid hits from 20-25ft with a double action revolver in a stress fire situation?
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Probably about the same as the chances someone will be making a 20-25 foot shot in a home defense situation. Pretty slim.
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Check out the page of self-defense news clippings from the NRA's American Rifleman. I forget the title of the column at the moment. ---- Ahhh... I remember now the Armed Citizen.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:04:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 3:06:35 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
Originally Posted By triburst1: What are the chances of someone who doesn't shoot that often, making solid hits from 20-25ft with a double action revolver in a stress fire situation?
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Probably about the same as the chances someone will be making a 20-25 foot shot in a home defense situation. Pretty slim.
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Check out the page of self-defense news clippings from the NRA's American Rifleman. I forget the title of the column at the moment. ---- Ahhh... I remember now the Armed Citizen.
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Exactly, warlord. If we didn't believe this, why would we arm our loved ones that aren't as "gunny" as we are? Firearms are what protect the innocent from the wolves. They give the weak an equal chance. As I once saw on the grip of a 1911 pistol that a Texas Ranger was carrying: "Fear no man that walks the earth, No matter what his size, If danger threatens, call on me, And I will equalize."
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:46:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
Originally Posted By triburst1: What are the chances of someone who doesn't shoot that often, making solid hits from 20-25ft with a double action revolver in a stress fire situation?
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Probably about the same as the chances someone will be making a 20-25 foot shot in a home defense situation. Pretty slim.
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Check out the page of self-defense news clippings from the NRA's American Rifleman. I forget the title of the column at the moment. ---- Ahhh... I remember now the Armed Citizen.
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I've read the Armed Citizen section now and then, but I don't recall any stories about shooting the bad guy from 20-25 feet away.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 7:12:30 AM EDT
I'm with the Texican. If you guys are taking 20-25 foot shots in your house, you have some pretty big houses.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:10:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:34:17 AM EDT
Sorry for the hijack, but I have to take a side on the carbine issue for home defense. 1. Over-penetration - Ballistic tests have shown that the 5.56 round will penetrate less than one normal residential wall (sheetrock on the outside aspects, and 2x4 interior studs) due to it's instability upon contact with any medium. OTOH, all common pistol rounds will penetrate at least none wall and possibly more due to their relative stability when striking a medium. 2. Aimed hits - With a longer sight radius, the carbine will be able to provide better hits with little or no additional training. 3. Size - Since we are proposing the perfect home defense weapon for a female, we may be able to make a few assumptions; said female is NOT going to be performing SWAT style room clearing 'slicing the pie'. She will most likely 'bunker up' on the off side of the bed with the chosen weapon, a phone and any pets she may have. In this scenario, the carbine with a true man stopping round will perform the best. 4. Capacity - With the ability to carry 29 rounds in the magazine, our heroine is able to actively protect herself against a whole hord of attacking Hottentots (or whatever). With a lower capacity weapon such as a revolver, you only have 5 rounds to stop the attack and ALL of the attackers. 5. Ease of Use - A revolver IS the most idiot proof, jam resistant weapon style, but with only a safety to release, an AR15 carbine in Condition 3 is almost as easy to get into play. With the large capacity, the weapon will not need to be manipulated until you need round number 30 as opposed to needing to reload at round number 5! These are only a few reasons why the M4gery is quite possibly the ultimate weapon for home defense, for either women or men.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 2:43:46 PM EDT
We went to the range yesterday with the S&W 65 and the borrowed 9mm carbine. The GF put 50 rounds through the carbine and 110gr .38s through the revolver. She was really good with the carbine, making eyeball shots on a FBI target from 30 feet. the revolver, of course, will take more pratice. She liked the concealability of the revolver, but she liked the carbine for its increased accuracy. We decided to go with the AR15.com solution-BOTH. I am going to let her keep the S&W a speedloader, and a Surefire G2 in a drawer in the living room for quick access and the I bought her a Kel-Tec Sub2000 9mm in Beretta configuration to keep under her bed. She liked the feel of it even better than the HiPoint. She keeps her bedroom door locked at night and if she hears an intruder, she will have time to grab the carbine. At the range, she was much more confident with the carbine, and I feel confidence is an important part of self defense. I also got her a pre-ban 15 round Beretta mag and a TAC-MIII light and Fobus light mount to attach to the rail with the remote switch on the fore end. I got a small motion detector that will emit a 120dbl siren if the front door moves. She is making plans to go to the range with me every other weekend to practice with both weapons. Thanks for all the help everyone. The dog was a good idea, but very few landlords around here will allow pets.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 3:33:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By triburst1: Opinions from female members would be be very helpful.
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Self defense should be practiced outside of the home as well as inside the home. The first thing she needs to do is get the notion of carrying a handgun in her purse out of her head. Her purse is likely the first item that will be ripped away from her when attacked. Even if she manages to hang onto it she won't be able to access her weapon. A holster, pocket carry or at the very least a purse designed specifically for handguns is best. As such IWB holsters are usually not found to be very comfortable for women and our shorter torso jams the gun into our side. A large or heavy handgun will be left at home. And a round with great recoil or even a very loud report will send her over on the fast track to flinchdom. Consequently your girlfriend would be well served with a J frame aluminum S&W or a similiar Taurus stoked with a light bullet weight 38+P frangible load such as the MagSafe, or best for concealment and "firepower", a polymer framed Kahr will fit the bill. Paddle holsters, while I have little use for them, allows a good clothing/belt(les) options. She needs to be able to carry it, conceal it, practice with it, and not be afraid of it. TT [wave]
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 7:54:30 PM EDT
Thanks TT. I have a S&W M37 I let her shoot with light 110gr. defensive loads. She fired one round and that was the end of that. She plans on getting her CCDW permit in August. She really likes my Kel-Tec P32 because it is so light, small, simple to operate, and has a pretty good trigger. I would like her to have something more powerful as a primary carry gun so I plan on getting her the first P-3AT(slightly larger gun in .380) I see. While I prefer 9mm +p, and 10mm Auto for carry calibers, the .380 with the right ammo is an effective round, and I want her to have a carry gun that I know she will be comfortable carrying and shooting. The Kel-Tec should allow a wide variety of carry methods that will allow her to always have it on her person.
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