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Posted: 6/2/2003 5:31:24 AM EDT
poll coming
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:37:18 AM EDT
you forgot the last option: Pull my M1 out of the trunk, load up a clip of AP rounds that I bought at a gunshow, and drop the bastards with two in the chest each. Problem solved.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:43:16 AM EDT
Did I read right that the LAPD had shotguns in the car?? If true they should be labeled incompetent instead of heros. Buckshot to the head, game over.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:45:51 AM EDT
Log on to AR15.com and ask the experts.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:46:04 AM EDT
I think the LAPD was using 9mm Berettas. Besides...lots of cops can hit the broadside of a barn with a pistol. Anytime an old fart like me can beat an LEO in IDPA, I am not impressed. Add to that the additional stress of being under fire...and it's no wonder they didn't get any head shots in.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:53:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 5:54:02 AM EDT by Johnphin]
Gun store. BIG rifle. (Or should I say, " The Remington 700 bolt action; the greatest sniper rifle ever made." [;)]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:53:25 AM EDT
I would have whipped out my brand spankin' new AR-4000 Assault Electro-Taser. It fires dart like projectiles that travel at the speed of light and when they hit, they send a 4 million gigawatt jolt through the perps body, drop in a second flat.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:54:41 AM EDT
According to the movie fluff at least one of the cars had a pump shottie with 4 rounds of double-ought. Oh, and I voted for pee my pants.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:55:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:56:48 AM EDT
Frankly, I'd get the fuc< out of there altogether and let the FBI find them. I don't know the details of the situation, but no amount of money is worth my life. If an engagement is unavoidable, I'd retreat to the greatest distance I could, find substantial cover, and go for a head shot with a high power rifle. But, WTF do I know... --LS
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:02:51 AM EDT
I'm not positive, but I thought the two guys were wearing Kevlar helmets also. This would make a head shot a little more difficult...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:34:51 AM EDT
IF I COULD STOP PEEING MY PANTS FOR A MINUTE, I'd find good cover (not a car) and shoot for the head. Jeez, I screw around with long pistol shots at the range everytime I shoot. If I had 90 rounds of 9mm and a full size 92 I wouldnt want to be a bad guy with an unarmored head within 200 yrds.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:42:25 AM EDT
I'd break out the "ar15.com Keyboard Commandos Guide To SHTF" It has all the right answers to every tactical situation.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:42:42 AM EDT
after serious consideration I'm gonna go with peeing my pants. Yup, that's just what I'd do.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:43:31 AM EDT
Cover behind a car would not be advised... At a shoot I got together last year, we shot up a door from a Ford Ranger... EVERYTHING but .22lr went through it. I mean EVERYTHING, and this was at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:44:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mmsig229: I'm not positive, but I thought the two guys were wearing Kevlar helmets also. This would make a head shot a little more difficult...
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Even if the "helmet" (actually a facemask with kevlar stitched in IIRC) stopps the bullet, its still a bullet. Blunt Force Trauma anyone. Getting shot, even with a vest on, hurts like hell, shoot them in the head enough, you will knock them out. Thats still not preferable to the accute case of lead poisoning they got.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:15:13 AM EDT
I would have died, or gotten seriously wounded
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:16:58 AM EDT
From my understanding these guys were also under the influence of drugs. If this is the case, they would also be relatively immune from pain. The lesson here is that no one could help the LEOs. If there was a shoot out like that in my neighborhood. Every other house has a high powered deer rifle that could easily been loaned to the officers. It doesnt take to much balls to shoot it out with sheeple around.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:39:00 AM EDT
If this would've happened in Alaska, someone would've bounced both these yabos off the nearest brick wall with a .458 or .600 Nitro Express round to the chest. Drugs or no drugs, the human body ceases to function normally when it is reduced to a lingering cloud of pink mist and shredded Kevlar.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:59:09 AM EDT
Sneak up behind them and jab my Micro-Tech HALO in one of their kidneys. Yeah right [rolleyes] I'd probably use by vehicle. Possibly get a weapon from a local gunshop. -UHLEK-
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:05:54 AM EDT
Cmon...this was televised as it was happening....some citizen did not show up with a .50? I would think that would be the perfect time to test it out. 2 Rounds from bout 3 blocks away and elevated....leave the cops scratching there heads when they hear the thunder and see them drop....
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:10:25 AM EDT
I've always wondered what distances cops shoot to practice with their pistol? Varying distances? The farthest I shoot regularly with a handgun is 20yds. Everything after that gets a rifle. There is a reason for the SWAT guys, the regular "beat cop" probably hasn't drawn his weapon in anger in his entire career. Or at least according to one Orange County LT... Assuming I had no rifle/shotgun and faced with full auto fire I think my immediate reaction would be to find a gun store and procure at the very minimum an 870 or an 1187. Not wait for the order to do so..... As for the cops weighing in on keyboard commandos: Well, we ALL saw how well the cops did in the event, we figure there may be some things to learn from it for ourselves and for you guys. I guess you just go to the range and send the stationary target to 7yds and qual there.... then holster you weapon and fill out some paperwork, huh? I mean that is fine if you plan to run away if it ever happens to you, but most of you will stay and fight, right. I hope you train for it. Ed
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:11:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:13:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CosmicOne-Der: Cmon...this was televised as it was happening....some citizen did not show up with a .50? I would think that would be the perfect time to test it out. 2 Rounds from bout 3 blocks away and elevated....leave the cops scratching there heads when they hear the thunder and see them drop....
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Oh, no sir -- not in Californistan. 50's are bad juju there. I have thought that same thing...wonder if a citizen HAD dropped them with a .30 cal slug at about 75-100yds, wonder if they would have been charged?? Anybody willing to take the action on that?? Now the duty SGT and LT have AR15's and 870/1187 shotguns in their rides for cases like this. Saw that on the Discovery Channel....[:D]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:18:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Originally Posted By CosmicOne-Der: Cmon...this was televised as it was happening....some citizen did not show up with a .50? I would think that would be the perfect time to test it out. 2 Rounds from bout 3 blocks away and elevated....leave the cops scratching there heads when they hear the thunder and see them drop....
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Oh, no sir -- not in Californistan. 50's are bad juju there. I have thought that same thing...wonder if a citizen HAD dropped them with a .30 cal slug at about 75-100yds, wonder if they would have been charged?? Anybody willing to take the action on that?? Now the duty SGT and LT have AR15's and 870/1187 shotguns in their rides for cases like this. Saw that on the Discovery Channel....[:D]
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Yes now they are bad ju-ju, but at the time of that incident, I don't believe they were.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:20:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CosmicOne-Der: Cmon...this was televised as it was happening....some citizen did not show up with a .50? I would think that would be the perfect time to test it out. 2 Rounds from bout 3 blocks away and elevated....leave the cops scratching there heads when they hear the thunder and see them drop....
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Tisk Tisk, you know better. Most .50 BMG rifles with the correct ammo are supersonic well past 2000 yards. [;D] The cops would see the BG's head evaporate in a poof of red, drop, then hear the thunder. Commence head scratching. Cool, I just came up with a name for my .50 "lightning stick." first you see it, then you hear it. I too was wondering why some guy with a deer rifle didnt pop the perps @ range. But I do imagne I wouldnt intentionally put myself in harms way. Read: go looking for trouble. If trouble finds me, thats one thing, to actively look for it, not my style.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:38:20 AM EDT
00 buck to the feet, barring that and or a lucky shot from a distance with my sidearm I'd wait for SERT or others with SIGHTED IN rifles. It really does no good and adds exponentially to department liability by fetching something from the gunstore that you've never shot and have absolutely no idea where it's hitting. So unless you're right on top of your target, which wouldn't be a good idea you probably wont hit what you intend to.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:45:56 AM EDT
When I still lived there, LAPD cars ALL had 12ga shotguns in them. But that is still only one for every 2 officers. Since this supervisors now get a old M16A1 converted to semi-auto only. So they couldn't hit these guys in the head with either 9mm or 00buck. They pulled like 70 projectiles from the two vests. Right after this shooting the local media investigated and found that the LAPD was carrying some 800 officers on duty who were not qualified with their duty weapons and had failed to do so more than once and by regulation should have been let go. They hadn't done so because they had no one to replace them and decided that having unqualified officers on the streets was better than having NO officers on the streets.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:52:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Originally Posted By CosmicOne-Der: Cmon...this was televised as it was happening....some citizen did not show up with a .50? I would think that would be the perfect time to test it out. 2 Rounds from bout 3 blocks away and elevated....leave the cops scratching there heads when they hear the thunder and see them drop....
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Tisk Tisk, you know better. Most .50 BMG rifles with the correct ammo are supersonic well past 2000 yards. [;D] The cops would see the BG's head evaporate in a poof of red, drop, then hear the thunder. Commence head scratching. Cool, I just came up with a name for my .50 "lightning stick." first you see it, then you hear it. I too was wondering why some guy with a deer rifle didnt pop the perps @ range. But I do imagne I wouldnt intentionally put myself in harms way. Read: go looking for trouble. If trouble finds me, thats one thing, to actively look for it, not my style.
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That had me thinking of the "Because you piss me off my child...." joke. So go out 800 or 1000 yards if capable and make the shots....since most officers would be tied up at the initial crime scene you should be able to leave the firing point quickly and disappear. Does anyone know how bad a .50 round disinigrates...you would not want to leave a ballistic finger print right?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:53:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 10:57:01 AM EDT by 8531sgt]
armdlbrl, My point exactly, TRAINING! The officers on the scene were inadequately trained in the employment of the tools they had and the effectiveness of those tools. You must know the limits and benefits of your equipment and how to use it to your advantage, they obviously didn't and those responsible for training in that department should be looking for work in something other than LE. Like Clint said "a man's got to know his limitations".
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:02:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 11:12:05 AM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
800 officers was around 10% of the force at that time. BTW, the reason I know so much about this is I was going to the University of California Riverside at the time this was current and I had SOOO many arguments/debates/shouting matches over this I made it a point to find out everything about it. Hey, was AR15.com up and running at the time? Do they have any of the old discussions from the time still in the archive?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:06:49 AM EDT
I was thinking the same thing about some citizen busting out his rifle. There isn't a jury in the world who would have convicted a civilian that took one of those bastards out. That said, pistols under extreme conditions aren't effective at long ranges, and when youve got two guys mowing down the grass with 7.62's getting within effective range probably isn't plausable. What would I have done? Maybe pulled a grandma move and driven into them with my eyes just below the top of the steering wheel.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:07:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 11:09:09 AM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By 8531sgt: armdlbrl, My point exactly, TRAINING! The officers on the scene were inadequately trained in the employment of the tools they had and the effectiveness of those tools. You must know the limits and benefits of your equipment and how to use it to your advantage, they obviously didn't and those responsible for training in that department should be looking for work in something other than LE. Like Clint said "a man's got to know his limitations".
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Sir, this is blasphemy....we ALL know that every cop on this board, and in every department in the country, is proficient with every weapon currently issued in the department, as well as any sidearm he decides to carry {if allowed to choose}. They get the super-duper qual course twice a year, whether they like it or not -- it also not fair that bad guys should have kevlar. I still think a "procured" scoped AR15, fired at the wall of the bank twice could get you on target pretty fast. Field zero...and move on. "MBG" - minute of bad guy is all you need with the rifle, right?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:17:25 AM EDT
Take your Meds Shivan. Your re-occurring badge envy is back.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:28:18 AM EDT
Step 1: Copy the tactics displayed by keenan ivory wayans in the movie "I'm gonna get you sucka": Run around screaming "They shootin' at us! They shootin! They shootin!" Step 2: Retrieve shotgun from patrol car. Hope there are some good buckshot loads in shotgun. Get as close as comfortable and stay under cover. Use shoot for the legs, either directly or by bouncing them off the pavement. If you can't hit COM, you can make it difficult for themto stand on two legs. Step 3: After bad guys have to resort to crawling on the ground and firing their weapons because they can't stand on their legs, get into patrol car. Run over bad guy. Back up over bad guy. Repeat as necessary. If any police agencies need training on these tactics, I'm available for a large consulting fee. Thank you.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:38:04 AM EDT
Well you all got to be careful with some of your suggestions. Remember we are dealing with California here, and its fucked up legal system. Running over suspects with a automobile could be considered "excessive force". Even the way the events actually transpired, the LAPD got sued for violating the one suspects civil rights! His family claimed that they continued to shoot him while he was on the ground and then didn't give him medical attention!
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:43:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 12:38:35 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By Sukebe: Take your Meds Shivan. Your re-occurring badge envy is back.
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Why envy a job so low in the gene pool like yours? What's wrong Sukebe? Points too close to home? Actually, maybe if I could get on a department where the sheriff or chief's name was Bubba, I might actually be envious. But alas, our cops in this area are college educated, unlike several in Ohio. YMMV......
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:56:42 AM EDT
I would sue HK and Bushmaster for them knowingly supplying dangerous weapons of war to the general public.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:00:35 PM EDT
By SHIVAN458 "I still think a "procured" scoped AR15, fired at the wall of the bank twice could get you on target pretty fast. Field zero...and move on. "MBG" - minute of bad guy is all you need with the rifle, right? " By the above statement you assume that the harried cop in the field would have the know how to field zero under duress. [lol]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:00:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Originally Posted By CosmicOne-Der: Cmon...this was televised as it was happening....some citizen did not show up with a .50? I would think that would be the perfect time to test it out. 2 Rounds from bout 3 blocks away and elevated....leave the cops scratching there heads when they hear the thunder and see them drop....
View Quote
Oh, no sir -- not in Californistan. 50's are bad juju there. I have thought that same thing...wonder if a citizen HAD dropped them with a .30 cal slug at about 75-100yds, wonder if they would have been charged?? Anybody willing to take the action on that?? Now the duty SGT and LT have AR15's and 870/1187 shotguns in their rides for cases like this. Saw that on the Discovery Channel....[:D]
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75-100 yards isn't very far. What do you think the police officer next to/in front of you would do when he sees ANOTHER civilian firing a weapon in the general direction of dozens of other officers? I'd think that'd take as big of a set of balls as it would to get up close and personal with the BG's. I'd be just as worried about the few dozen officers mistaking me as an assistant to the robbery and lighting me up, too. Reminds me of my favorite tactic in paintball. Crawl on your face thru the dirt around the outskirs of the field, then bunker up at the very back of the other teams side and start picking them off one by one from behind. None of the other players figured out till I kill them (at least the first few times)... but if I see someone I dont know behind me (I don't recognize them as a teammate), they get shot.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:24:33 PM EDT
Depends on distance: Head shot inside 35 yards, but I like the car idea a lot. Did I mention I liked the car idea a lot? Sometimes, a pistol is only good to fight your way back to your vehicle to get your carbine. If you don't have a carbine waiting for you, you're in a world of shit. Jay
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:25:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 12:27:32 PM EDT by polarisfan]
75-100 yards isn't very far. What do you think the police officer next to/in front of you would do when he sees ANOTHER civilian firing a weapon in the general direction of dozens of other officers? I'd think that'd take as big of a set of balls as it would to get up close and personal with the BG's. I'd be just as worried about the few dozen officers mistaking me as an assistant to the robbery and lighting me up, too. ...but if I see someone I dont know behind me (I don't recognize them as a teammate), they get shot.
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Pretty good point,those cops were scared SH_TLESS!! And I think anyone without a badge (and firing a gun) would be in danger!! I was very surprised when this all happened at the (seemingly) unpreparedness of the LAPD. Although I guess going up against armed and determined men is a little different than standing in a circle and beating on unarmed, defenseless citizens! But police bashing aside,I really would have thought the police would have been better armed!
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:32:53 PM EDT
You need an option for all of the above on the poll [:D]. What has always surprised me was that the bad guy's weapons were not hit by incoming police rounds. People tend to focus on weapons in a fight, and with the weapons held in such close proximity to the torso I would have thought that at least one of their weapons would have been hit (not that I believe that some one under fire could intentionally pull off a shot like that). Kyle
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:35:23 PM EDT
I would have thought about using that armored car that the police confiscated to run them down.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:37:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 8531sgt: By SHIVAN458 "I still think a "procured" scoped AR15, fired at the wall of the bank twice could get you on target pretty fast. Field zero...and move on. "MBG" - minute of bad guy is all you need with the rifle, right? " By the above statement you assume that the harried cop in the field would have the know how to field zero under duress. [lol]
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Sorry....forgive me.....[slap]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:38:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By polarisfan:
75-100 yards isn't very far. What do you think the police officer next to/in front of you would do when he sees ANOTHER civilian firing a weapon in the general direction of dozens of other officers? I'd think that'd take as big of a set of balls as it would to get up close and personal with the BG's. I'd be just as worried about the few dozen officers mistaking me as an assistant to the robbery and lighting me up, too. ...but if I see someone I dont know behind me (I don't recognize them as a teammate), they get shot.
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Pretty good point,those cops were scared SH_TLESS!! And I think anyone without a badge (and firing a gun) would be in danger!! I was very surprised when this all happened at the (seemingly) unpreparedness of the LAPD. Although I guess going up against armed and determined men is a little different than standing in a circle and beating on unarmed, defenseless citizens! But police bashing aside,I really would have thought the police would have been better armed!
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But why be that close 75-150 yards.....too close to some jerk off spraying full auto...thanks but no thanks... like i said, find the high ground, use somehting that you can play your long game with, .50, 7mm Mag, .300WinMag, and locate yourself far enough away to let the round defete the body armor yet not draw fire or attention. High odd the cops would no have realized where the shots came from til you are gone, home and cleaning the weapons....
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:45:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CosmicOne-Der:
Originally Posted By polarisfan:
75-100 yards isn't very far. What do you think the police officer next to/in front of you would do when he sees ANOTHER civilian firing a weapon in the general direction of dozens of other officers? I'd think that'd take as big of a set of balls as it would to get up close and personal with the BG's. I'd be just as worried about the few dozen officers mistaking me as an assistant to the robbery and lighting me up, too. ...but if I see someone I dont know behind me (I don't recognize them as a teammate), they get shot.
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Pretty good point,those cops were scared SH_TLESS!! And I think anyone without a badge (and firing a gun) would be in danger!! I was very surprised when this all happened at the (seemingly) unpreparedness of the LAPD. Although I guess going up against armed and determined men is a little different than standing in a circle and beating on unarmed, defenseless citizens! But police bashing aside,I really would have thought the police would have been better armed!
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But why be that close 75-150 yards.....too close to some jerk off spraying full auto...thanks but no thanks... like i said, find the high ground, use somehting that you can play your long game with, .50, 7mm Mag, .300WinMag, and locate yourself far enough away to let the round defete the body armor yet not draw fire or attention. High odd the cops would no have realized where the shots came from til you are gone, home and cleaning the weapons....
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Was not advocating lying in the street and doing this....was also not advocating just doing it and vanishing. If that was my neighborhood and my kids or wife or friends....I think I would already have hard cover established and attempt the shot. Let everything cool out, then call my lawyer, then call dispatch and tell them I have a story to tell a detective. I guess that is me and my SHTF preparedness...in my case that would constitute shit hitting the fan.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:46:28 PM EDT
As I cant immagine not rolling with an AR in the trunk in any line of work where I might get shot at, I would wet myself and start shooting.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:54:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 8531sgt: By SHIVAN458 "I still think a "procured" scoped AR15, fired at the wall of the bank twice could get you on target pretty fast. Field zero...and move on. "MBG" - minute of bad guy is all you need with the rifle, right? " By the above statement you assume that the harried cop in the field would have the know how to field zero under duress. [lol]
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Hell I bet you could do it with iron sights and Kentucky windage.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 1:13:38 PM EDT
Run to gun store (was there one close?) and hope that they don't have the deer hunting shotgun w/ scope on the display rack but the M1A with mounted scope or perhaps the Winchester 70 Stealth with scope mounted. Of course I would have to zero the bitch, but that's what 100 yard shots are for. I would go for the Black Hills Partition ammo. That could hurt a bit. Esp. in .308 Then again, had I had a firetruck I would just have blasted the shit out of them using water. Lemme tell ya. Water from 50 yards from a platform mounted watercannon which are quite frequent will knock youu off your feet and smash your into the ground or, depending on direction, a good 10+ feet away. I can even tear your pants off. Don't mess with the firefighter, he might axe you some questions!!!
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 1:25:02 PM EDT
According to the movie, the LAPD is a bunch of baboons. They hid and pee'd and managed to get off 4-10 rounds each in a massive gunfight. They could not hit anything nor could the use basic first aid or radios in a useful way, they cannot control a crowd nor could they give directions to incoming units. Two fat guys thumped them and finnaly died of boredom, what a stupid movie.
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