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Posted: 5/31/2003 8:52:37 AM EDT
Was looking in shotgun news and saw these handguns advertised. I would like to get either one or both of them, I like old military handguns. They both are in 7.62x25 caliber. Anyone have any experience with these handguns at all? And how do they shoot? Also what type of ammo is available for them? Thanks!
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:59:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 11:44:48 AM EDT
Yeah, get the CZ-52. The Tokarev is the spiffier looking pistol, but the CZ-52 is much more robust and you can load it with high-pressure ammo designed for SMG's, hot defense loads like [url=http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/magsafeammo/page3.html]Magsafe[/url] ammo, and the [url=http://www.owlnet.com/quality/223%20Timbs.htm].223 Timbs round[/url]; none of which is intended or recommended for the Tokarev. [url]www.Aimsurplus.com[/url] has CZ-52's in stock now for $110.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 12:19:23 PM EDT
The 52 hands down.. Roller locking action.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 12:34:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2003 12:39:31 PM EDT by SouthernShark]
I once bought one of each. They both pretty much suck when compared with modern guns ( even the Makarov is a better pistol IMHO). I got rid of the CZ-52 as soon as I could. I've still got the Tok and consider it to be much more "reliable" and easier to shoot than the CZ. Besides weak internal parts, the CZ is also difficult to load (having a bottom mag release like many European pistols including the Makarov). The CZ has a strong steel slide, but the internals are lacking. The Tok may be "less robust" but its a somewhat better pistol. It loads faster and has better sights IMHO. The Tok is also slimmer and easier to conceal. Having made your choice, I chose the Tok over the CZ-52. If I had the choice to do over again I would not have bought either of them.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 12:37:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 12:39:58 PM EDT
Between those two pistols I chose neither...I bought Maks.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 1:22:23 PM EDT
Get both! I have a Cz, some time in the future I plan on getting a Tokarev, and maybe someday I'll end up with a C-96 (love those bottlenecked pistol rounds) & perhaps a PPSh41 or PPS43. A 7.62x25 AR15 upper is a must have also. The sights on the Cz are tiny, but so are the original 1911's. The trigger pull is stiff, but that can be fixed (though the fix will ditch the FP safety, BFD). The firing pins WILL break if you dry fire...big deal, buy a snap cap & an aftermarket FP. The heel mag release? A plus in my book, no accidently dropped mags. I'm waiting for ClarkMag, the usenet,Gunboards.com troll to show up any second now & proclaim that you'll shoot your eye out/lose your hand if you get the Cz, because he managed to blow up a few with his questionable crackmonkey reloading (though he never seems to offer any pix of the kaboomed Cz's as proof....)[rolleyes] I swear, he lives to piss all over Cz's.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 1:27:21 PM EDT
Makarov. Stout pistol with a good round.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 1:43:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RiffRandall: I'm waiting for ClarkMag, the usenet,Gunboards.com troll to show up any second now & proclaim that you'll shoot your eye out/lose your hand if you get the Cz, because he managed to blow up a few with his questionable crackmonkey reloading (though he never seems to offer any pix of the kaboomed Cz's as proof....)[rolleyes] I swear, he lives to piss all over Cz's.
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Is that the guy who keeps saying the CZ52 design and metalurgy is the weakest of all handguns created? Has anyone bought a box .223 Timbs yet? I am curious as to the OAL and the amount/type of powder they are using.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 1:57:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2003 2:01:53 PM EDT by vmax84]
where does one get a good Makarov (are they curio and relic)?? Thanks vmax84
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:02:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By RiffRandall: I'm waiting for ClarkMag, the usenet,Gunboards.com troll to show up any second now & proclaim that you'll shoot your eye out/lose your hand if you get the Cz, because he managed to blow up a few with his questionable crackmonkey reloading (though he never seems to offer any pix of the kaboomed Cz's as proof....)[rolleyes] I swear, he lives to piss all over Cz's.
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Is that the guy who keeps saying the CZ52 design and metalurgy is the weakest of all handguns created? Has anyone bought a box .223 Timbs yet? I am curious as to the OAL and the amount/type of powder they are using.
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The one and only. I think he must do a daily google search for "cz52" and "cz52 vs tokarev" and all other variations. Every single online gun discussion board I've surfed where this discussion comes up he's been there talking trash. He's been banned from Parallax's C&R forums for this very behavior. Re the .223 Timbs: Haven't seen any as of yet, but I have the same questions. I have seriously thought about buying some sabots & loading my own but lack of time & $$$ has derailed my plans. There might be a problem if you used steel cored .223 bullets.....[peep]
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:10:21 PM EDT
Well as a designated ammo r&d tech, the problem I have run into is that the OAL with a sabot and anything 55gr fmj or over is just too long. So forget about SS109's. I was able to get ahold of some of the same bullets used in the .223 Timbs- Hornady 50gr SPSX. They have to be using some off the shelf commercial powder. It has to be something very fast given the reduced case capacity due to the sabot having to be seated so deeply. My guess is either AA#2 or AA#5.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:20:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vmax84: where does one get a good Makarov (are they curio and relic)?? Thanks vmax84
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The place I've got my 4 Makarovs is Gunbroker.com. The E German (which has no E on it, just Germany-a Commie thing) and the Military Russians are C&R.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:35:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Well as a designated ammo r&d tech, the problem I have run into is that the OAL with a sabot and anything 55gr fmj or over is just too long. So forget about SS109's.
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Well, that's a relief. Although I guess you could (hypothetically)load some "out of spec" re OAL & singleload. Just benchracing/BSing, it's not like the standard 86grn fmj is a weak sister in penetration anyways.
I was able to get ahold of some of the same bullets used in the .223 Timbs- Hornady 50gr SPSX. They have to be using some off the shelf commercial powder. It has to be something very fast given the reduced case capacity due to the sabot having to be seated so deeply. My guess is either AA#2 or AA#5.
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If only S&B, Fiocchi or somebody else would load 7.62x25 with proper hollowpoint ammo we wouldn't have to worry about exotic sabots, etc. I like my Cz, but it's way, way down on the list of handguns I'd use for self defense..fmj 7.62x25 would only be useful in such a situation if you were attacked by 4-5 guys who thoughtfully lined up single file. OTOH the Cz is big & heavy enuff to make a passable club for pistolwhipping.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:44:13 PM EDT
Get a CZ52 and go to [url]/http://www.makarov.com/cart/vitemcz52.htm[/url] and get the firing pin upgrade. The stock ones will break if dry fired. The new pin will also vastly improve the trigger pull. The makarov is a good pistol but a little weak.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:46:24 PM EDT
CZ 52 definitely
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:48:46 PM EDT
Serria makes a 85 grain soft point that should do the trick.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 3:06:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RiffRandall: I like my Cz, but it's way, way down on the list of handguns I'd use for self defense..fmj 7.62x25 would only be useful in such a situation if you were attacked by 4-5 guys who thoughtfully lined up single file. OTOH the Cz is big & heavy enuff to make a passable club for pistolwhipping.
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Dont you realize one of the most appealing features of stock 7.62x25mm fmj is its penetration power? Especially through kevlar?
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 3:10:14 PM EDT
What are the ergonomics like?
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 3:29:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By RiffRandall: I like my Cz, but it's way, way down on the list of handguns I'd use for self defense..fmj 7.62x25 would only be useful in such a situation if you were attacked by 4-5 guys who thoughtfully lined up single file. OTOH the Cz is big & heavy enuff to make a passable club for pistolwhipping.
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Dont you realize one of the most appealing features of stock 7.62x25mm fmj is its penetration power? Especially through kevlar?
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That's the main reason I was drawn to it in the first place, but having factory hollowpoint ammo available would be nice. About the only badguys who wear kevlar are JBTs so that kinda limits the Cz's usefullness (nice to have the option though).
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 6:12:10 PM EDT
If you want hollowpoints, Hornady makes a 90gr XTP specifically for .30 mauser/7.62 tokarev. The Accurate #2 loading manual has 7.62x25 data that pushes the 85gr Sierras to 1972 fps. Hornady data for the 90gr XTP is 1700fps. I weighed the 50gr SPSX bullet in a sabot and it was 56gr.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 6:13:14 PM EDT
If you want hollowpoints, Hornady makes a 90gr XTP specifically for .30 mauser/7.62 tokarev. The Accurate #2 loading manual has 7.62x25 data that pushes the 85gr Sierras to 1972 fps. Hornady data for the 90gr XTP is 1700fps. I weighed the 50gr SPSX bullet in a sabot and it was 56gr.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:08:07 PM EDT
M1 carbine bullets load and shoot throught the CZ52 fairly well. Deep seated to be sure, and they sure make the brass fly.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:29:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2003 8:34:55 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By RiffRandall: I like my Cz, but it's way, way down on the list of handguns I'd use for self defense..fmj 7.62x25 would only be useful in such a situation if you were attacked by 4-5 guys who thoughtfully lined up single file. OTOH the Cz is big & heavy enuff to make a passable club for pistolwhipping.
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Dont you realize one of the most appealing features of stock 7.62x25mm fmj is its penetration power? Especially through kevlar?
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That's the main reason I was drawn to it in the first place, but having factory hollowpoint ammo available would be nice. About the only badguys who wear kevlar are JBTs so that kinda limits the Cz's usefullness (nice to have the option though).
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Actually, standard 7.62X25 won't penetrate genuine Kevlar. It will however, easily penetrate most of the newer generations of soft body armor a lot of people are buying. The lighter weight more flexible stuff such as Spectra Shield that is available now doesn't seem to be as strong as Kevlar. Our local crime lab did some testing with some 7.62X25 surplus ammo after an officer was killed with a CZ-52. No, he wasn't hit in the vest but in all the tests, Kevlar stopped the rounds, Spectra didn't. They also found that the Czech surplus ammo was the hottest they tested, reaching up to 1600 FPS. Even that was stopped by Kevlar. They tested level IIA and level III armor.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:53:07 PM EDT
Don't know about the other but the CZ52 I have is great. Paid $139. It all original Military sidearm built in 1954 with 90% of the grey phosphate finish intact. The roller locking mechanism is great. It is an easy take down and a cinch to clean. Acurate as hell but, get a bit of trigger slap. I have no problem running 100 rounds through it at the range. The mag is not a drop free. I love the history. Check out makarov.com for more details of IM me. JC
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