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Posted: 5/30/2003 2:19:14 PM EDT
[url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/bal-md.fbi29may29,0,3392881.story?coll=bal%2Dhome%2Dheadlines[/url]
An attorney for FBI Special Agent Henry F. Hanburger, one of Braga's supervisors that day, gave a blunter assessment, writing in court papers that Schultz "is attempting to turn a lamentable mistake into a $10 million bonanza, at the expense of agents who were trying to apprehend a bank robbery suspect who was believed to be armed, dangerous and determined not to be returned to jail."
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Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:21:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 2:21:47 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Yeah, this happened right down the street from me. Trust me, all the talk in town is almost become violent against any Federal law enforcement agency.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:33:13 PM EDT
Typical JBT shit. How dare these peasants think they can hold us, the JBT's resposible for our actions !!!! I haven't seen any updates on this case, what was the final outcome for shoot the innocent guy in the face johnny jackboots here...a promotion ?? a medal ?? a raise ??
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:40:05 PM EDT
I am not LEO bashing but how is it if we fuck up as reg citizens we get hung out to dry and they (the feds mostly) get away with this shit time after fucking time? If I was walking down a dark alley and a guy approached me and he reached into his jacket and was pulling out something (cigarette,which I didn't see) and I had a CCW and shot and killed him I would go for at least invol manslaughter,but if you are a cop you get the benefit of the doubt and can shoot innocent people and not go to jail? WTF!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:45:39 PM EDT
It's just more of the same old double standards that many in the law enforcement profession pull out when they have done something illeagal. Of course, if any one of us had found ourselves in the same situation of shooting an unarmed man, regardless of the circumstances, then we would get a trip to Club Fed. I wear my seatbelt because I believe it will help reduce injuries in a accident, I could care less about the click it or ticket laws. But in this case, that seatbelt combined with an itchy trigger finger almost cost Mr. Schultz his life. It's a damn crying shame that I have more to fear from the politicians, tax collectors and the police then I have to fear from [b]ANY[/b] drug dealer, gang banger, serial killer, rapist, or Wise Guy. If you are a good cop, then my comments and observations are not about you and you should not be offended. But if you are a JBT, FUCK YOU!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:46:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy: I am not LEO bashing but how is it if we fuck up as reg citizens we get hung out to dry and they (the feds mostly) get away with this shit time after fucking time? WTF!
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Because they have infinite financial resources while the average schmuck is paying 18.4% interest on his visa card. Hell, even Bill Gates with his billions had a bitch of a time against the man. As Liberty86 sez: "Follow Da Money"
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:50:43 PM EDT
What, a "sorry, my bad" is not good enough for the guy who got shot in the face? He actually wants money? Come on, the feds say it was a good shoot, wrong innocent person but good shoot anyway. [puke] So can I shoot FBI agents and say they were reaching for their waist and get a "good-shoot" judgement as well, I mean who cares if they are quilty, innocent or whatever, if he was reaching for his waist then I was fearing for my life as we know FBI guys hve shot innocent people before, sets a precedent doesn't it?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:51:00 PM EDT
The important thing is the agents made it home safe that night. [slap]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:52:30 PM EDT
I don't like those guys very much.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:55:09 PM EDT
Just goes to show that the feds are completely "above the law". And they wonder why shit like the OK city bombing happens.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:57:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hellraiser: So can I shoot FBI agents and say they were reaching for their waist and get a "good-shoot" judgement as well, I mean who cares if they are quilty, innocent or whatever, if he was reaching for his waist then I was fearing for my life as we know FBI guys hve shot innocent people before, sets a precedent doesn't it?
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Sounds like a good idea to me.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:19:09 PM EDT
Like the president of our great democracy said: "Either you are with us or you are against us." Mr. Schultz should be honored to be involved with one of the agencies that took the lead in tracking down the terrorists who hate our freedom. I believe it is time that we, as loyal american patriots, begin a fund to purchase a hero rifle for Agent Hanburger. He is a true defender of this country and deserves our deepest thanks.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:33:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Like the president of our great democracy said: "Either you are with us or you are against us." Mr. Schultz should be honored to be involved with one of the agencies that took the lead in tracking down the terrorists who hate our freedom. I believe it is time that we, as loyal american patriots, begin a fund to purchase a hero rifle for Agent Hanburger. He is a true defender of this country and deserves our deepest thanks.
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I'm all for that, but's let re-engineer the rifle so it shoots straight back so he can experience the joy of getting shot in the face.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:14:21 PM EDT
I wonder, where are all the police "apologists" that usually jump on these threads to defend and support their heroes at times like this? I guess the light of day is just to glaring in the face of this obvious injustice! To all of you who might behave in this manner, and those of you who defend them, (you all know who you are) I say SHAME ON YOU!! Cowards!!! [pissed][pissed][pissed]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:40:52 PM EDT
I'm calling the top two out: Sukebe Kay9 What say you, our brothers in blue?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:50:17 PM EDT
Do you guys think LEO's as a whole display a socialist mentality
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:51:46 PM EDT
Agent Hamburgler...
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:11:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sckoyrsht: Do you guys think LEO's as a whole display a socialist mentality
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Not all, just most.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:11:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: I'm calling the top two out: Sukebe Kay9 What say you, our brothers in blue?
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I have never seen either of the above mentioned people defend a FBI agent for shooting an innocent man in the face. Usually, they simply try to make some of you understand that a newspaper article doesn't tell you the whole story. All of us have seen how absolutely incompetent reporters are about reporting gun issues. Most local cops have experience the same thing regarding law enforcement realted incidents. This an apple and orange comparison.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:12:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:14:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hellraiser: Just goes to show that the feds are completely "above the law". And they wonder why shit like the OK city bombing happens.
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I'm still not entirely convinced that the OK City bombing didn't have some federal influence.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:16:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 5:19:32 PM EDT by ipschoser1]
ACCOUNTABILITY!!! LE needs to be able to fight crime but with no ACCOUNTABILITY we've lost our balance. Absolute minimum, this dip**** should be out of the LE profession for life. Instead of ACCOUNTABILITY we've got condesention. That must change in Fed LE. When we as a people demand ACCOUNTABILITY (thru our representatives) that's when things will change.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:18:45 PM EDT
This thread is cop bashing and must be locked.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:30:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 5:31:32 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: M4, what can you tell us about the grand jury that No Billed SA Braga?
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Just what the hell are you talking about? I live where this happened, I am commenting on how almost everyone in my area are totally pissed with the FEDS. WTF is wrong with that?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:50:29 PM EDT
IBTL? [s]I thought stating facts is against board protocal?[/s] I thought LEO bashing is against board protocal?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:53:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: M4, what can you tell us about the grand jury that No Billed SA Braga?
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Just what the hell are you talking about? I live where this happened, I am commenting on how almost everyone in my area are totally pissed with the FEDS. WTF is wrong with that?
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I think what he's asking is since you live in the area, have you heard any local rumors as to why the grand jury [b]didn't[/b] send the FBI fella to trial. The news article says the grand jury claimed there was no crime. WTF is so bad about that question? It sounds like a reasonable question to me! -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:02:52 PM EDT
DPeacher said: "It's just more of the same old double standards that many in the law enforcement profession pull out when they have done something illeagal. Of course, if any one of us had found ourselves in the same situation of shooting an unarmed man, regardless of the circumstances, then we would get a trip to Club Fed." "I wear my seatbelt because I believe it will help reduce injuries in a accident, I could care less about the click it or ticket laws. But in this case, that seatbelt combined with an itchy trigger finger almost cost Mr. Schultz his life." "It's a damn crying shame that I have more to fear from the politicians, tax collectors and the police then I have to fear from ANY drug dealer, gang banger, serial killer, rapist, or Wise Guy." "If you are a good cop, then my comments and observations are not about you and you should not be offended. But if you are a JBT, FUCK YOU!" Can I hear a BIG Amen!!!!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:05:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By N_Viejo:
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: M4, what can you tell us about the grand jury that No Billed SA Braga?
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Just what the hell are you talking about? I live where this happened, I am commenting on how almost everyone in my area are totally pissed with the FEDS. WTF is wrong with that?
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I think what he's asking is since you live in the area, have you heard any local rumors as to why the grand jury [b]didn't[/b] send the FBI fella to trial. The news article says the grand jury claimed there was no crime. WTF is so bad about that question? It sounds like a reasonable question to me! -Nick Viejo.
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Think you guys are confusing what a grand jury does, which is to find evidence of a crime and probable cause to indict a suspect, and a civil action to get compensationfor a error in behavior which is not criminal, but did cause injury. I can well believe that a grand jury found no evidence of a crime here. After all, if my son leaves his roller skates out on the sidewalk, and the old lady next door trips on them and breaks her leg; no crime has been committed, but I'm still probably financially responsible for her injuries. And that's what this suit is all about. From what little I know about the circumstances here, it does appear that no crime was committed. But it sure as hell looks like this agent screwed up royally, and the victim is entitled to major damages.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:23:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 7:24:41 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: M4, what can you tell us about the grand jury that No Billed SA Braga?
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Simple - we must protect the thin blue [s]LIE[/s] Line. Who's going to go against the FBI, the holy agency protecting us from terrorists?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:26:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 7:31:32 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Just so we keep the facts straight: The FBI didn't even pull over the right KIND or color car. Joe Schultz was 100% innocent. Joe was trying to obey orders from the FBI to exit the vehicle Joe was shot in the face Joe is F'ed up Joe did nothing wrong The FBI wouldn't even pay the medical costs Here is Joe: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12891[/img]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:49:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:54:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFNG: This thread is cop bashing and must be locked.
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I hope you're being sarcastic. [b]Assuming[/b] the article is accurate (I have no doubt that the incident took place, and that an unarmed person was shot in the face), then the POS responsible should be doing 20 years in a cinder block cell and receiving a daily regimen of foaming beef enemas in the gang showers instead of weeping over a lawsuit. The events as I read them are inexcusable.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:01:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LoginName: [b]Assuming[/b] the article is accurate (I have no doubt that the incident took place, and that an unarmed person was shot in the face),
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The article is accurate. We have a guy and a girl driving down a dark road at night. FBI pulls them over (wrong kind of car, wrong color). 2 agents approach. One says "don't move", the other says "get out of the vehicle" Schultz obeys the order to exit, reaches for his seatbelt and gets blasted in the face with an M4 at point blank range. After that, things get a little vague. They say he was allowed to bleed out hand cuffed on the ground for 2 hours w/no medical help, as I recall. They say the FBI laughed about it (nervous response?). Apparantly they had raided the real suspect's house earlier in the day and confiscated the water pistol (or BB) that he used in the holdup, so they might surmise the guy wasn't actually armed and dangerous. Maybe. Was it criminal? No, though a citizen would likely be jailed for doing the same. Was it wrong? Hell yes. Is the FBI responsible? You bet. The FBI won't pay medical. The FBI ruled it a good shoot. Local DA won't prosecute. FBI agents don't believe they did anything wrong. [B]THIS COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ANYONE OF US[/B] That is what I find so outrageous. And the FBI doesn't give a shit. They think it's a good shoot.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:01:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By LoginName: [b]Assuming[/b] the article is accurate (I have no doubt that the incident took place, and that an unarmed person was shot in the face),
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The article is accurate. We have a guy and a girl driving down a dark road at night. FBI pulls them over (wrong kind of car, wrong color). 2 agents approach. One says "don't move", the other says "get out of the vehicle" Schultz obeys the order to exit, reaches for his seatbelt and gets blasted in the face with an M4 at point blank range. After that, things get a little vague. They say he was allowed to bleed out hand cuffed on the ground for 2 hours w/no medical help, as I recall. They say the FBI laughed about it (nervous response?). Apparantly they had raided the real suspect's house earlier in the day and confiscated the water pistol (or BB) that he used in the holdup, so they might surmise the guy wasn't actually armed and dangerous. Maybe. Was it criminal? No, though a citizen would likely be jailed for doing the same. Was it wrong? Hell yes. Is the FBI responsible? You bet. The FBI won't pay medical. The FBI ruled it a good shoot. Local DA won't prosecute. FBI agents don't believe they did anything wrong. [B]THIS COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ANYONE OF US[/B] That is what I find so outrageous. And the FBI doesn't give a shit. They think it's a good shoot.
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AMEN!!!!!! Feds get away with 2 much
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 10:41:26 PM EDT
As I expected the cowards are all hiding in their holes over this one, but their silence sceams volumes. It is blatantly obvious that their position is indefensable. When will they understand that it is exactly this type of bullshit that causes the malice and distrust of all LEOS, if only for once responsibility was accepted, and the 'blue wall of silence' would speak out, there might be room for understanding. But as long as this type of behaviour is condoned by the 'Brotherhood of Blue' there will remain an adversarial division within the people. LEOS should SPEAK out and do what is needed to heal the rift amongst us all. Only then will will they truely be entitled to the RESPECT they think they should deserve. Drop your elitist attitudes and join the REAL world, you remember, the one where you came from, before you were taught that all civilians are BAD!! We could use some more good cops out there, leave the 'DARK SIDE' and remember where you came from. You might find it nice to work for the PEOPLE again. We would like to have you back......
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:16:37 PM EDT
Proper civilian code of conduct towards Law Enforcement Officers. 1. Civilians should be seen and not heard. 2. Civilians should speak ONLY when spoken to. 3. When replying to a Law Enforcement Officer, each sentence should end with "Sir" or "Ma'am". Using the word "Officer" instead will raise suspicions. 4. Civilians with concealed weapons permits should not be insulted if they are subject to a felony search. An armed civilian, no matter how well trained, is a liability to other civilians and more importantly Law Enforcement. 5. Innocent civilians, without hesitation, will consent to a search of their person and/or vehicle. A denial of search is a blatant indication of guilt and grounds for detainment. 6. The police are thanklessly out there 24/7 protecting you and your family from criminals so when receiving the citation from the Law Enforcement Officer, thank him or her for doing their job.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:24:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 11:26:33 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: My request was pretty fucking straightforward, and I thought noncontroversial. I don't get the Maryland papers, so I wanted to know what you had heard, if anything, about the events at the grand jury that found no crime was committed by SA Braga. Did the DA steer the grand jury to no true bill, or was it really the will of the people? Are you objecting to me hijacking what isn't even your thread, or did you read something into my question that wasn't there?
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I sincerely apologize. I thought your post was sarcastic and I thought that you thought that I was cop bashing. Again, I was taking your post the wrong way and I am sorry. I sometimes hate web discussions because of mix-ups like this. Back to your question. Since you live in a free state (TX) people are treated like humans and your state feels privilege to have you, not like Maryland where the courts are the superior ones and the people should feel privilege to have them. The high courts of the state and the federal court in Baltimore take up for the governments [u]ALL[/u] the time. I would hate to think if there was ever a Waco or Ruby Ridge event here , they probably would dismiss all public requests for an investigation. My prediction: The court rids the FBI Agent of all wrong doing and civil suit will not be granted (due to a jury who is scared) because the court feels "the FBI was just carrying out orders even though they were wrong and the suspect was thought to be in the car" Thats how it is here, and like everyone bitches about the state the state is in, but no one will do anything about it. [:(]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:45:38 PM EDT
IBTL.. The guy should be sent to leavensworth doing hard labor for the rest of his natural life!!!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 11:52:58 PM EDT by cnatra]
I remember reading about this when it happened. [url]www.sunspot.net/news/bal-fbishooting.special[/url] What shocks me the most(I guess it shouldn't) is the [blue]COMPLETE LACK OF REMORSE on the agent's part & the FBI's part.[/blue] [b]Where the hell is the accountibility ???[/b] If we "accidently" shot a LEO kicking in our door serving a warrant at the wrong address the DA/prosecutor would stick us in prison for life! Why is BRAGA still an agent [?] What arrogant ASSHOLES!!
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 12:48:16 AM EDT
All I can say if it was me shot in the face and I lived 10 mil would be chicken feed, those mofo's better pay off quick, if this goes to jury, he will and should get more.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 3:07:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:45:31 AM EDT
How can the FBI feel NO responsibility? How can they dismiss this as "following orders"? "Doing their jobs"? "a good shoot"? They shot a TOTALLY innocent man in the face. They've done a fairly good job of trashing his life. Now they want to just walk away, pretending they did nothing wrong. Wow.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:56:20 AM EDT
The silence is deafening.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:58:22 AM EDT
"Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea."
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 6:28:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Adam_White: "Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea."
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UC? That book made me very angry. There were a number of incidents in it that I thought were historical fiction until I looked them up.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 6:40:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 7:14:01 AM EDT
The fact that this guy is still an agent illustrates that the FBI doesn't give a crap about him, and that they aren't accountable for their own actions. Goes to show that they aren't about protecting everyday citizens. What exactly are they protecting? Seems like all they care about protecting is their own jobs. And they wonder why we get concerned about them passing and enforcing laws that encroach upon honest citizens' civil liberties.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:11:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2003 9:01:55 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/635766/posts[/url] THE RAID: New Fiction from the War on Domestic terrorism..
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:36:57 AM EDT
If YOU got sued, or, if you did something that you knew there was a high probability that you would get sued, do you really think you'd make the rope to hang yourself? Get real. I think the closest thing to an apology the feds ever gave out was to Richard Jewell. As far as the defense attorneys' comments, this is all typical civil court posturing. The FBI ( please genuflect when you say FBI ) gets sued, and they have so many days to respond to the court. This was their response, but is not necessarily an indication that they will put up a serious fight. The feds will loose in court, so will settle "large". His attorney will get attorney's fees as well as 1/3 of the settlement. Jay
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 9:04:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: The silence is deafening.
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Yes it is. I had a post, typing it made me feel better but I decicde not to post it. But I'll go with what you said.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 6:31:58 AM EDT
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