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Posted: 5/29/2003 7:24:39 PM EDT
"If you carry a 1911-style pistol "cocked and locked," how many times has that safety been knocked off in your holster leaving you carrying "cocked and unlocked?" The first time it happened you got rid of the holster. The second time it happened you quit carrying in a fanny pack. You don't want there to ever be a third time and that is why we made the Para LDA pistols with their exclusive patented light double-action, hammer down triggernometry."
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Is this just an answer in search of a problem, or is that actually a common occurrence?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:30:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 7:32:29 PM EDT by gus]
I sometimes carry a Para P1445 (single action) cocked and locked. Never had the safety get knocked off. In fact, my holster has a protective guard that makes it just about impossible. I have heard that their DA trigger is about the best one out there though.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:30:14 PM EDT
Most of the better ccw holsters I have seen have a channel molded or shaped into them that prevents this from happening. The safety only fits into the groove when it is on. I have never had this problem with my 1911.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:32:03 PM EDT
It's going to take a substantial amount of pressure to disengage my slide safety. In the unlikely event that it would happen, there's no way in hell I wouldn't know it was happening. There is a grip safety as well. How many safeties does a pistol need?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:32:23 PM EDT
If you keep the stock [i](non-extended)[/i] safety it wont be a problem.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:35:33 PM EDT
I been carrying a P14 for the last 4 years in a SOB holster. The safety had been rubbing against anything my back has. Especially the car seat whenever I get in or out. In fact the most worn part of the finish is the safety. Never has it un-safety-ed itself, so I think that is definately a solution in search of a problem.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:36:06 PM EDT
I had a dealer try to sell me a new HK, with the LEM (Law Enforcement Trigger) He was telling me its not safe to carry cocked and locked. Because the saftey can get knocked off. I started laughing at him. He was wearing a 1911 on his hip! (cocked and locked) If you want to sell a pistol, try to sell it on its good points, like how nice and smooth the trigger is. I have to agree with John, it seems like an answer looking for a problem. Thee best saftey, is the one between your ears.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:39:33 PM EDT
I have had it happen and an older style flat leather holster...
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 7:39:45 PM EDT
I have the P14 Limited with the factory installed ambi-safety and never had any problems. And I love having 15 rounds of .45 ready to roll.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:01:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:17:16 PM EDT
Jareheads right,and remember you also have to activate the grip saftey aswell.(Browning was no fool[:)]) Anyhow as far as the thumb saftey is concerned it is supposed to be very crisp and positive in operation. All mine came that way from Colt,and if yours is installed and operating correctly merely brushing up against something isn't going to deactivate it. On another note I've read on the 1911 forum that the Para double action is quite light and good,but also somewhat fragile.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:26:05 PM EDT
Isn't the 1911 grip safety just as effective as the Glock safe trigger setup as far discharge from being dropped, hit, stepped on ect? Isn't it actually a little safer from accidental pulled trigger discharges (from foreign objects, errant fingers getting in the way while holstering, ect) because the safety and the trigger ARE in two different places? Is a 1911 not, in fact, as safe when cocked, with a round in the chamber, and the manual safety OFF as the Glock is with a round in the chamber?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:09:12 PM EDT
The LDA is a "comfort" issue. Some people just don't like carrying Condition One. Some Pd's don't allow it for their officers. I've been carrying a 1911 of some sort for 25 years. The only time I had a safety "knocked off" was when I was hit by a car while bicycling, and my 1911 went bouncing down the street, end over end. It hit on both muzzle and butt. The thumb safety was disengaged. The gun didn't go off. Haven't really worried about it since.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:13:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Regardless of the position of the safety, a 1911 won't fire unless you put your finger on the trigger.
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Can a brother get an Amen!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:17:19 PM EDT
Marketing.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:39:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:43:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 10:46:51 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Fully agreed. Thats why Im still lugging a cocked and locked 1911 everyday. Add that to the fact that Ive been complete UNIMPRESSED with several LDAs Ive shot. Their comments appear to me to be aimed solely at the LE market, the administrators of which tend to get their panties all bunched up at the thought of an officer carrying a COCKED gun.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:36:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 11:40:53 PM EDT by The_Emu]
Originally Posted By DavidC: The LDA is a "comfort" issue. Some people just don't like carrying Condition One. Some Pd's don't allow it for their officers. I've been carrying a 1911 of some sort for 25 years. The only time I had a safety "knocked off" was when I was hit by a car while bicycling, and [red]my 1911 went bouncing down the street, end over end. It hit on both muzzle and butt. The thumb safety was disengaged. The gun didn't go off. Haven't really worried about it since.[/red]
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Wow, cool. I love my Springfield, But it makes me nervous sometimes. Anyway, when i holster it in my Bianchi shoulder rig i always make sure i havent bumped the safty off with the retention strap. On the draw i dont really worry about it. if im just "dehostering" i have time to check the safty. if im drawing in "condition red", i want the safty off anyway. Ben, The Emu
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:33:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:49:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By byron2112: Jareheads right,and remember you also have to activate the grip saftey aswell.(Browning was no fool[:)]) Anyhow as far as the thumb saftey is concerned it is supposed to be very crisp and positive in operation. All mine came that way from Colt,and if yours is installed and operating correctly merely brushing up against something isn't going to deactivate it. On another note I've read on the 1911 forum that the Para double action is quite light and good,but also somewhat fragile.
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Browning put the grip safety on the 1911 because of the Army design requirements. That being said, I've never had my 1911 thumb safety move when I've been carrying (not that I'd ever do that, since I don't have a "permit" yet. [;)] ). And what the hell is "triggernometry"? Are they trying to be funny? If so, they really should fire the entire marketing department. Any of you guys want a job? [:D]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:10:11 AM EDT
So what if it gets knocked off, yes it has happened to me more than once, the grip safty is always on, not a big deal.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:34:50 AM EDT
That was probably written by an ad agency twit who thinks guns are evil. Nonetheless, Para should know better. They're pitting their LDAs against their conventional SAs. I personally would not disparage one at the expense of the other. BTW, I own a P-13 and think it's a great gun.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:37:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:43:28 AM EDT
Not to get picky guys, but when you say a 1911 will never go off unless your finger is in the trigger, that might be true for a Series 80 and later. Drop a Series 70 (no firing pin block) on its muzzle and there's a fair chance that it will go off due to the inertial movment of the firing pin. Ed
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:50:33 AM EDT
TexasEd, I have to respectfully disagree. The FBI did extensive testing of 1911s prior to selecting the SA for its SWAT Team members. The dropped all test guns numerous times with no ADs. They were all series 70s. Mike
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:55:06 AM EDT
MAP What you say could be true. I find it hard to believe that a company such as Colt would take a 70 year old design and change it for the worse (trigger pull) just to make people feel safer. Also, it seems that all these other companies must be putting firing pin blocks on their pistols just for kicks ?? Ed
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:56:17 AM EDT
MAP Then again, this is the same company (Colt) that almost stopped civilian sales when the AWB was enacted.???
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:56:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexasEd: Not to get picky guys, but when you say a 1911 will never go off unless your finger is in the trigger, that might be true for a Series 80 and later. Drop a Series 70 (no firing pin block) on its muzzle and there's a fair chance that it will go off due to the inertial movment of the firing pin. Ed
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To make it fire, it has to be on a rail pointed muzzle down and dropped I think ten feet onto a hard, concrete like surface, the legend of a series 70 firing if dropped on its muzzle is a gun writers fiction, reported because it could be done if you worked real hard to do it.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:03:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gus: I have heard that their DA trigger is about the best one out there though.
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If you guys have never played with one, I [b]highly[/b] recommend that you do. It is, without a doubt, the slickest, OEM, double action trigger I have ever played with. It takes all the fear out of a 1911 type pistol. Carrying condition 1 was a real concern for me with a single action pistol. Now it's not.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:38:15 AM EDT
Para is just marketing to those who are scared of the cocked hammer. Great idea if you ask me, now they can double their market share by picking up a bunch of double action only owners.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 7:41:19 AM EDT
RobarSR60 I've been trying to get my local range to add an Para LDA to their rental gun supply so I can try it. If you go to their web site, they have a video of some serious rapid fire with one of their LDA autos. Is the pull similar to a Glock ?? Does the slide partially cock the hammer ? Can you pull again if you get a failure to fire ?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:12:27 AM EDT
I have a 14.45 LDA w/Hogues and it's one of my favorite handguns, and accurate as heck to boot. The trigger action is sweet and cocks the hammer as you pull the trigger. The staging is just right and release is crisp. I have heard about reliability (read fragility) issues, but mine's been flawless even with 'ashtrays' (Hydrashok HP). I can hit gallon milk jugs at 100 yds w/90% hit ratio with it, and as stated before there's nothing like 15 rds. of .45 on your side.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 1:31:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexasEd: MAP What you say could be true. I find it hard to believe that a company such as Colt would take a 70 year old design and change it for the worse (trigger pull) just to make people feel safer. Also, it seems that all these other companies must be putting firing pin blocks on their pistols just for kicks ?? Ed
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Liability.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:01:35 PM EDT
Ditto on the liability thing. And the Para is like the Glock in that the slide partially cocks the hammer, and you DON'T have second-strike capability. The trigger is slicker than hell, but I have some issues with calling it a "Double action pistol", since it's not.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:03:57 AM EDT
A 1911 without a crisp single action trigger is like a .... Corvette with a 4 cylinder 2 wheel drive jeep
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:17:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Derek45: A 1911 without a crisp single action trigger is like a .... Corvette with a 4 cylinder 2 wheel drive jeep
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I agree, and might I add, I would like a non-emasculated version of each of those! [;)]
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:35:21 PM EDT
Johnpin Just out of curiosity...if a 1911 never fires when dropped on its muzzle, why would liability be an issue ?? I understand what you are saying though. Probably worth it in today's litigous (sp?) society. Ed
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:48:36 PM EDT
if there is even a theoretical threat of an AD from a drop the lawyers would insist on the safty just to cover their own asses.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 4:50:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexasEd: Johnpin Just out of curiosity...if a 1911 never fires when dropped on its muzzle, why would liability be an issue ?? I understand what you are saying though. Probably worth it in today's litigous (sp?) society. Ed
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It very well may fire when dropped on it's muzzle, although I imagine that it would have to be dropped from a considerable height in order to the firing pin's mass to overcome the return spring and still hit the primer hard enough to ignite. And of course, instead of people being careful not to go around dropping their guns off their roofs, they're probably much more likely to just go ahead and do it and then sue the manufacturer, IMO.
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