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Posted: 5/28/2003 3:01:35 PM EDT
If you were sleeping and a bunch of guys rushed in. What would you do? Most of us have the means to fight but would that be wise? Also lets say you win and all the guys in black get killed or shot and withdraw. What would happen to you? I guess I would be in my underwear grabbing carpet. This seems to be the correct thing to do, however, I am very weary of a situation where they do an oops and shoot me. Like the FBI guy when he shot the innocent passenger.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:05:21 PM EDT
For my safety and all others involved, they had better announce themselves and their business before the entry.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:08:26 PM EDT
If they came in really fast..I would do whatever they told me to do. I have a feeling they would shoot me because my first instinct when something weird happens is to reach for my gun. Hopefully, they would have the courtesy to flash bang us first. Man, I hope that never happens....all I can think about is my kids.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:09:22 PM EDT
I would probably die from multiple bullet wounds right there in the hallway. And there is no way to win. If you do temporarily gain the advantage and force them out of the house do you think they will just pack up and go home? Nope, it is called a police standoff and nobody ever wins one of those. (Except of course the police, FBI, ATFE, Lon Horiuchi types)
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:10:07 PM EDT
i'd probably do something stupid and get killed by JBTs
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:10:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 3:11:12 PM EDT by dave223]
Originally Posted By chaos4570: For my safety and all others involved, they had better announce themselves and their business before the entry.
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Just like the kick robbers do right before they kick in your front door and execute everybody. They wear jackets and shirts with LEO markings. How the hell do you know if they are really cops in that split second?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:12:49 PM EDT
What would you do?
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Well since I am not a criminal, I would fight.
Most of us have the means to fight but would that be wise?
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Would NOT fighting be wise if they were criminals doing a home invasion?
lets say you win and all the guys in black get killed or shot and withdraw. What would happen to you?
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That depends, if you had not done anything to bring the raid (ie the raid/arrest warrant was the product of an illegal or illegitimate court order), then the worse you could be charged with (if you have a competent attorney) would be involuntary manslaughter. The SCOTUS has already spoke on the punishments of resisting illegal arrests. They did it back in the 1830's. [i]"Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, Upheld: John Bad Elk v. U.S., The U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.[/i]
I guess I would be in my underwear grabbing carpet. This seems to be the correct thing to do, however, I am very weary of a situation where they do an oops and shoot me.
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Then please turn in your guns and report to the processing center for re-education, but first you must go take the delousing shower.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:14:52 PM EDT
I'd call 911.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:17:09 PM EDT
offer them a beer[beer]if that doesnt work, lay the fuck on the ground[shock] but it depends what bad I have done
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:17:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:22:21 PM EDT
My buddy was saying youre going to get shot by the police one day. They are going to come in and see you cleaning all your guns and will shoot you just becasue you had a lot of guns!
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:23:44 PM EDT
Get on the floor, you loose. "Accidentaly shot" you loose. Go out in a B-O-G, you loose. Any way it goes, the only result will be a bunch of guys talking about it on the internet, and how they'd have been ready/done differently... Confiscation is underway.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:26:14 PM EDT
this reminds me of article i read about the cops breaking in to the wrong house and shooting a poor guy (father of three) that was tryng to protect his family. they were sleeping and the door coming down woke him up, he went to the closet and got a shot gun to defend his wife and kids, the cops came in and seen him and blasted him, killing him in front of his wife and 6 year old son. then they jumped on his wife and cuffed her in front of the children that were now awake. he was legal and had broken no laws, so he had no reason to beleive the guys breaking his door in at 3am and yelling police were the real police, the article ended saying that the matter was being handled internally by the police dept. isnt this like the wolves investigating the wolf that raided the chicken coop? how many of us on this board would get shot defending our house and home from a threat in the middle of the night, would you believe the guy yelling police while breaking down the front door? i would atleast arm myself and check my targets before i shot anything, but i would probably get shot also in that situation.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:28:56 PM EDT
If they come crashing in you better comply with whatever wacked out demands they make. In theirs minds you are a criminal in the commision of a crime, thus are a liar as well. Until, the adrenial rush wears off you should be calm. Remember, you are getting bum rushed by guys who really think there are armed felons in the house, in their world you are dangerous. Hopefully you are innocent of whatever they believe you did, but the simple fact you own guns may trigger their uncontrollable impulse to sieze your property. Go find a lawyer. I work next to a police training facility, our plant has been here for about 115 years. Occasionally, a twitchy SWAT nazi will trigger on the guy locking the gate or working outside in the evening and felony stop them or start waving guns around. Most of the cops are really decent guys, but a select few have serious wiring problems when it comes to "friend or foe" type problems. A few choice experiences over the years have left me with the impression that some of these guys are serious loose cannons. I'd like to think honest mistakes can be corrected in a timely polite manner with a minimum of fuss. Let them fix your door and give your crap back and apologize. Locally, a quick phone call to the "powers that be" corrects the few twitchy cops, we have never had a repeat from the same cop.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:29:50 PM EDT
I can get to the Glock on my nightstand faster than I can tell that they are cops. Nuff said.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:34:45 PM EDT
i doubt my .45 is going to do me any good with all that police body armor so they would probably kill me, but why would they be busting down the door?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:36:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno: I'd call 911.
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CORRECT! Trying to help out: During training exercises they found that it takes approx 30 sec to wake from deep sleep into full consciousness. What you have to do is develop a conditioned response during those 30 seconds whereby your body goes into autopilot. It takes a while to get this down but once you do, when a noise loud enough happens you will find yourself almost magically in a defensive position.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:36:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lonegunman: If they come crashing in you better comply with whatever wacked out demands they make.
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Wow, I guess if they demand all your valuables and kill/rape your wife/daughter(s), you will be perfectly safe groveling on the floor.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:39:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:40:12 PM EDT
It would be a good day to die.. sadly this would be the inevitable result of an event such as described here.. i would rather be a free corpse, than a half alive slave to the state. welcome to Amerika.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:42:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mike45acp: i doubt my .45 is going to do me any good with all that police body armor so they would probably kill me, but why would they be busting down the door?
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I had the same thought. I used to have an AR by my bed, but I need to buy ammo for it. And sight it in. I wont advocate the killing of LEOs, but we do not break the laws, so they have no reason to enter my house. If they knock on the door with a warrant, I will let them in. If they knock [b]down[/b] the door, with or without warrant, someone goes home in a bag.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:59:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Beard: i'd probably do something stupid and get killed by JBTs
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You must be on CRACK!! Everyone knows JBT`s save lives not take them!! Ask Five-O.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:10:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:10:15 PM EDT
[img]http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/vermin2_s.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:14:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 4:18:49 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
And to think people keep arguing here that you should stick with a 12ga instead of a AR to secure your house [rolleyes] But I have been in AZ now for almost 4 years-be 4 exactly in October. And I have not seen on the news or in the paper any case of the Police making a raid on the wrong house like what happened in NYC. Do you think that it just MIGHT have something to do with the fact that officers here EXPECT everyone to be armed regardless of if they are good or bad and take precautions? As opposed to New York where if they find someone with a gun they get a free shot at him since he is automatically a criminal?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:18:25 PM EDT
I have a feeling they'd get to me before I could get to my gun, even the one I keep next to the bed
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:24:22 PM EDT
I assure you that if it was the FBI SWAT Team, if you made ANY advesarial moves, you would resemble a moldy piece of swiss cheese ! These guys ARE REALLY WELL TRAINED PROFESSIONAL OPERATORS. Most are ex SpecOps or Ex Navy Seals. Too bad to the bone for us mopes on this site.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:28:36 PM EDT
Just for the record, we can thank the war on drugs that this question is even asked. I keep wondering when gun owners will realize that many of these problems are almost entirely a product of the war on drugs and that the war on drugs is one of the main driving forces behind the calls for gun control laws. It would be nice if the NRA and other gun groups would realize the connection and start campaigning to get the war on drugs stopped. Do you think there is any chance of that?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:32:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 4:35:43 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By wolfman97: Just for the record, we can thank the war on drugs that this question is even asked. I keep wondering when gun owners will realize that many of these problems are almost entirely a product of the war on drugs and that the war on drugs is one of the main driving forces behind the calls for gun control laws. It would be nice if the NRA and other gun groups would realize the connection and start campaigning to get the war on drugs stopped. Do you think there is any chance of that?
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Only if we are allowed to shoot and kill on sight those who are intoxicated in public before they can run someone over with their car. Cops are just going to have to learn to do their jobs correctly. Letting people get stoned however and whenever they want is going to kill a lot more innocent people.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:27:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Only if we are allowed to shoot and kill on sight those who are intoxicated in public before they can run someone over with their car.
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Then you would be shooting alcohol drinkers with great regularity. Alcohol is the only drug with any significant impact on auto accidents. All the other drugs combined are nothing by comparison.
Cops are just going to have to learn to do their jobs correctly. Letting people get stoned however and whenever they want is going to kill a lot more innocent people.
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As I have said many, many times before, those who support gun prohibition and those who support drug prohibition have the same thing in common -- they don't know anything at all about the subject. Like you, for example. You obviously didn't know that drugs were completely legal at one time, with no age restrictions on sales, and not even any labeling requirements on the package. Cocaine was included in Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola and heroin was a part of some baby colic remedies. Even under those extreme conditions drugs were not considered a major threat to society and there was no significant movement to outlaw them as there was with alcohol. Addiction rates were about the same as they are now but addicts did not commit crimes and generally lived otherwise normal lives -- like tobacco addicts today. The problems you are concerned about didn't happen until the drugs were made illegal, and were a direct result of the drugs being made illegal -- just like alcohol prohibition increased the problems with alcohol. If you are really interested in the facts you can read an excellent history of the subject at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm[/url] (But, I have found that people who support prohibition are rarely interested in reading the facts. This policy was built on ignorance and bigotry and it requires ignorance and bigotry to survive.)
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:34:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 5:37:54 PM EDT by RustyTX]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:36:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
Originally Posted By Red_Beard: i'd probably do something stupid and get killed by JBTs
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You must be on CRACK!! Everyone knows JBT`s save lives not take them!! Ask Five-O.
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You are a real peach aren't you, Rip... Let me guess, a cop fucked your wife and you could never quite do it for her again right? Oh she said she was sorry and it was a mistake but you knew... Surely that is the reason you just can not let it be. Hopefully I will leave your little consciousness soon. But until then [b]BOO![/b]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:37:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:41:03 PM EDT
BOO! is that the new club code word?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:48:30 PM EDT
Go here to read about the fallen "JBTs" who died serving you, your families and your neighbors. The Officer Down Memorial Page www.odmp.org
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Go here to read the history of the subject and how these problems basically didn't occur before drugs were made illegal. [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm[/url] Drug prohibition kills cops as well as innocent people.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:53:46 PM EDT
In no particular order: Grab carpet. Freeze. Shit pants. Comply with all orders given. Followed by: Reach for most bloodthirsty, wildman, cop-hating lawyers available at any price. Hannibal-freaking-Lecter with a law degree. It is far better to survive and get even later than to die in a firefight to no greater purpose. Hypothetically speaking, suppose you were completely innocent of any wrongdoing, not even under any justifiable suspicion of wrongdoing, minding your own business, and suddenly were alerted by something going on that causes you to grab your rifle, find your safest firing zone in the house, and through some miracle of Rambo-ness, managed to wipe out an entire team of JBT's when they come smashing through the doors and windows and never give you any indication that they're police? Suppose YOU have to call 911 and tell the dispatcher that you just wiped out six to eight armed intruders in your home, and when the police arrive, only then it's discovered that you out-swatted a SWAT team? (Take it one step further: Your local PD knew NOTHING of the operation, which was a Sheriff's Department op, and the Sheriff hadn't bothered to inform any other agency of what was going on.) What would the end result be in such an admittedly unlikely situation? Think you'd get charged with something? I have a feeling that, eventually, something like that just MIGHT happen. CJ
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:56:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:04:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RustyTX: 1. So if enforcement of a law is difficult and dangerous we should just legalize it?
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No, we should change the laws because prohibition does more harm than good -- just like alcohol prohibition did. You don't have to like alcohol to recognize that alcohol prohibition was a major disaster. Similarly, you don't have to like the illegal drugs to recognize that prohibition of them causes more problems than it solves.
2. Have you looked into the socio-economic effects in areas where drugs (not malt liquor or MD 20/20) are legal or laws are not actively enforced?
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It seems pretty obvious that you didn't read any of the references I posted, because they discuss just that. In addition, I have about 800 megabytes (nearly all text) of other research on the topic online. These drugs were not a major problem in the US before they were made illegal. There are currently some places in Europe (Switzerland as one example) where they have essentially "legalized" these drugs (though they don't call it that, and the word "legalization" has no clear meaning, anyway). The result has been a huge drop (80 percent or more) in crime, a huge drop in the number of people who are homeless and on welfare, a huge drop in transmission of certain diseases like AIDS, and complete elimination of drug overdoses, among other benefits. The police who were opposed to the plan before it started are now some of its biggest supporters. But, of course, you might already know all that if you had bothered to read the references I linked. The evidence against drug prohibition is absolutely overwhelming -- no question about it.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:06:35 PM EDT
Lose lose situation.... cherry pie might be smeared on the wall. I pray nothing like this ever happens.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:09:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 6:39:15 PM EDT by Andreuha]
RustyTX: You mean places like the netherlands? of like areas where there isn't much law (The area between Turkey area and Russia)? Netherlands are doing just fine with weed and not much enforcement. Although the other area mentioned is a total crapper from what i've been told by residents. Anyway, Naturally, theres only two basic choices: Discipline, and Drugs. There is a middle road though in places that have mandatory military service (IMO: this might do some good with the younger generation in this country) Edit: note, If an FBI SWAT team did a no-knock on one of our homes, I'm sure atleast a couple of us would be too busy changing into clean underpants to get our guns. BTW, unless theyre REALLY good robbers, you can be assured its a SWAT team. If you hear alot of banging then the door caves in, lock, load, and yell out to ask who the hell that is.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:21:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:25:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Anyway, Naturally, theres only two basic choices: Discipline, and Drugs. There is a middle road though in places that have mandatory military service (IMO: this might do some good with the younger generation in this country)
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I was in the Army during the days of mandatory military service (otherwise known as the "draft"). You never saw a bigger bunch of drunks.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:42:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Anyway, Naturally, theres only two basic choices: Discipline, and Drugs. There is a middle road though in places that have mandatory military service (IMO: this might do some good with the younger generation in this country)
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I was in the Army during the days of mandatory military service (otherwise known as the "draft"). You never saw a bigger bunch of drunks.
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Drunks, or Alcoholics? I'm a drunk... only on social gatherings though. Alcoholic? HELL NO! Was that also the priod when legal age was 19? (sorry, i'm not too good with american history when it comes to law... almost upto it in school).
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:43:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 6:43:46 PM EDT by TigerStripe]
Don't know. Probably breathe relax aim stop squeeze. When something unusual happens or someone unexpected arrives, I usually grab my AR. (I'm not paranoid, you just don't get unexpected people where I live.) But if I were really asleep, it would probably just be a raid and they would trash my house and find nothing. TS
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:43:49 PM EDT
I'd borrow a tune from the IRA! [i]And it's over in the Beltway, that's where I long to be, Lying in the dark with a Patriot company, A comrade on me left and another on me right And a clip of ammunition for my little Armalite. I was stopped by an Ell-Eee-Oh, said he, You are a swine, He beat me with his baton and he kicked me in the groin, I bowed and I scraped, sure me manners were polite But all the time I'm thinking of me little Armalite. And it's down in Los Angeles, sure that's where I long to be, Lying in the dark with a Patriot company, A comrade on me left and another on me right And a clip of ammunition for my little Armalite. Sure a brave FBI man came up into our street Six hundred thuggish soldiers were gathered round his feet Come out, ye cowardly "citizens", said he, come out and fight. But he cried, I'm only joking, when he heard the Armalite. Sure it's down in Atlanta, that's where I long to be, Lying in the dark with a Patriot company, A comrade on me left and another on me right And a clip of ammunition for my little Armalite. The DEA came to visit me, 'twas in the early hours, With helicopters in the sky and mil-surp armoured cars They thought they had me cornered, but I gave them all a fright With the armour piercing bullets of my little Armalite. And it's down in Miami, that's where I long to be, Lying in the dark with a Patriot company, A comrade on me left and another on me right And a clip of ammunition for my little Armalite. The President held press conferences, he said, The battle's won, Drug Tsar said, We're winning sir, we have them on the run. But corporals and privates on patrol at night, Said, Send for reinforcements, it's the bloody Armalite. And it's up north in Bellingham, that's where I long to be, Lying in the dark with a Patriot company, A comrade on me left and another on me right And a clip of ammunition for my little Armalite.[/i] Original lyrics for [url=http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/eire/armalite.htm]"My Little Armalite"[/url]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:46:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno: I'd call 911.
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David Koresh did that.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:46:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 7:07:35 PM EDT by DJSSniper]
Faces don't have Kevlar...it will work for AR-15's, Pistols, and even those Shotguns some of you hate.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:00:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Hypothetically speaking, suppose you were completely innocent of any wrongdoing, not even under any justifiable suspicion of wrongdoing, minding your own business, and suddenly were alerted by something going on that causes you to grab your rifle, find your safest firing zone in the house, and through some miracle of Rambo-ness, managed to wipe out an entire team of JBT's when they come smashing through the doors and windows and never give you any indication that they're police? Suppose YOU have to call 911 and tell the dispatcher that you just wiped out six to eight armed intruders in your home, and when the police arrive, only then it's discovered that you out-swatted a SWAT team? (Take it one step further: Your local PD knew NOTHING of the operation, which was a Sheriff's Department op, and the Sheriff hadn't bothered to inform any other agency of what was going on.) What would the end result be in such an admittedly unlikely situation? Think you'd get charged with something?
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You might get charged with something, but I believe you would be well within your rights(UNIDENTIFIED INTRUDERS STORMING YOUR HOME) . I would more than likely be DEAD or Seriously wounded at the end of your Scenerio. You can BET YOUR ASS that if UNIDENTIFIED people storm my home, we would have trouble!(after cleaning the shit out of my boxers) I wouldn't await around to count the number of INTRUDERS, so, I would likely be dead. I had the same type of question at a review board once. Question: An armed individual wearing a mask points a weapon at you.......with a deep voice threatens to shoot you....what do you do? Answer: Double tap him in the chest. Board Response: You just Killed an overgrown 13 year old kid. My Response: I would feel really sorry for his parents, but I am going home at the end of the day. I did end up with the job.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:23:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Go here to read about the fallen "JBTs" who died serving you, your families and your neighbors. The Officer Down Memorial Page www.odmp.org
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Go here to read the history of the subject and how these problems basically didn't occur before drugs were made illegal. [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm[/url] Drug prohibition kills cops as well as innocent people.
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So cops were not killed before drugs were made illegal? Nor are they killed in other than drug related situations? Come on. BTW, FWIW, I support limited decriminalization.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:28:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Drunks, or Alcoholics? I'm a drunk... only on social gatherings though. Alcoholic? HELL NO!
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Lots of regular drunks, some alcoholics.
Was that also the priod when legal age was 19? (sorry, i'm not too good with american history when it comes to law... almost upto it in school).
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Nope. BTW, the biggest teen drinking epidemic in our history occurred during alcohol prohibition.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:33:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FiveO: So cops were not killed before drugs were made illegal? Nor are they killed in other than drug related situations? Come on.
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No, and I never said anything close to that, so you come on. If you read the history, you will find that deaths of cops increased dramatically during alcohol prohibition, and during drug prohibition. That isn't the only cause, but it is one HUGE cause.
BTW, FWIW, I support limited decriminalization.
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Do a little more study of the subject and I am quite sure you will go farther than that. If you only read one book on the subject, read this one [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm[/url] I would be willing to bet that most of what you think you know about the subject is actually wrong.
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