You would lose that bet.
Don't assume that someone who disagrees with you is uninformed.

The scenario of the local agency not being informed by the raiding agency has happened in the Los Angeles area at least once.  One dead INNOCENT homeowner.

Look at some of the folks posting on here in the LEO area.  Look at some of the LEOs you know.  Can they make dumb mistakes???    Look at some of the podunk jerkwater town where every guy that was the HS football star and didn't go on is now the qb of the SWAT team just waiting for the chance to score a whole bunch more touchdowns? The saving grace here is that likely everybody knows everybody and hopefully sumbuddy would figure it out on arrival.

the opportunity for fatal mistakes is way too great for some of the sloppy work I see.

How in the world are we supposed to know it is indeed the cops?  A law abiding citizen has no reason to expect the cops to kick in their door,
so most would come out shooting.

Worst case scenario if it IS the cops is that I die, and my family becomes very wealthy.
The worst case secenario if they are actually criminals is much, much worse if I do not resist.
Do any of the LEOs care about that?

I have met, discussed, and debated the subject with literally thousands of people over the years. Two things are true:

1) The vast majority of what most people think they know about the subject is wrong.

2) People who support the drug war know next to nothing about the subject. Just like people who support gun prohibition and their knowledge of guns. They can't accurately answer a factual question to save their lives. In addition, huge numbers of them also refuse to read anything on the subject.

And I am willing to take those bets any day. I have proven it more times than I can count, with people ranging from high school students to veteran narcotics officers, prosecutors, and top government officials.

Is there anyone here who supports the drug war who would be willing to take a short quiz of their knowledge?

Nothing until they shook me to wake me up.  That's one advantage of being a very heavy sleeper.  There's no chance I'll wake-up to pull a gun on a invading group of cops.  On the other hand, I'm always afraid someone's going to kick-in my door and walk-out with everything of value without me even waking-up.z

Legalize drugs:

(Now pay attention, this is Economics 101 stuff)

The price goes way, way, way down, as the cost due to illegality goes away.

Crime goes way way down.  Now, due to the cheap drugs, those so inclined can buy it with their welfare checks and not have to steal $1500-$3000 worth of goods a day to support their habits.  

Crime goes down, as fewer police are on the take (from drug dealers).  We eventually have better police.

Crooked politicians and judges (the good cops know who these guys are) go broke, finding politics and judiciary (without the supplimental income) not supporting them as they have become accustomed, and hopefully, go back to chasing ambulances or whatever they did before.

The drug cartels, bankers who launder their money, etc, all go out of business due to the drop in price of their products.  They reduce production, finally tapering off to a very small amount produced.

Less money available to terrorist organizations.

But before the supply dwindles, the idiots of this world do us all a favor by doing as much of that crap as they can buy, thus thinning themselves out of the genepool.  Everybody know that shit is bad, so, I don't care if their stupidity kills them.  Fine, good riddance.

We win all around.

No, it will never happen... the powers that be stand to lose too much money.

Actually, I answered this question with a little more attitude than I should have.
I have done some research on this years ago, but I was not convinced about the value  of much of the information as one can use statistics to support whatever conclusion they wish.  Also most university studies are suspect in my opinion because of the left wingers that run them.
I will look into the info you posted as time allows, you have me curious.
I answered you under the Drugs post and I should probably confine my comments on this subject over there to keep from hijacking this thread.
Oh, and you are correct, most people haven't done much research on this subject. It's usually an emotional discussion.
See you over on the DRUGS thread.

Some of you have an amazing amount of faith in the legal system, the one in which you're assuming, once the smoke clears, everything will get straightened out.

No offense, but do I really need to point out the thousands of posts here, the thousands of news stories posted elsewhere, each describing miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage of justice? Seriously, a new story about a gun owner getting screwed by an anti-gun judge, an anti-gun media-tainted jury, an anti-gun DA with an attitude and unlimited taxpayer monies, etc., has become virtually a daily event.

I'm not advocating violent resistance, mind you. That's a decision each of us has to make, based on each of our respective circumstances. I do, however, find a distinct duplicity in seemingly blindly trusting a system to save our respective asses, while this same system is constantly being exposed as clearly stacked against us, if not FUBAR.

Regardless, it's a depressing scenario for sure. Myself, being guilty of no crime, if and when a no-knock warrant is served here I will have to assume their intent is to remove my God-given right to defend myself, and will be forced to act accordingly.

cynic

1) The likelyhood of a bunch of goons going to the trouble to fake a SWAT raid is low... The likelyhood of this happening AND my being the first victim (and thus not hearing about it 'going around' on TV) is even lower...

-SO-

Assuming there is no warning in the news about police-impersonators doing home-invasions, I would follow instructions as appropriate...

Because if I were a cop, serving a warrant that I believed to be correct ('cause I don't give the orders, write the papers, or drive the van, and all I know is the boss said there's a guy in that house who's dangerous, broke the law, and needs to be arrested) I'd shoot if he went for a gun too...

The mistaken raid & damage would be easy to sort out later... PDs don't like egg on their faces...

Then your education is pretty limited, because the research I have is far more than statistics and the largest single part of it comes from the US Federal Government. In addition, the biggest single US Government study was written by President Nixon's hand-picked law-and-order rightwing cronies.



If you do, I can pretty much guarantee it will surprise the hell out of you. Not what you expected at all.

One good place to start is the short history of the marijuana laws at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm[/url]  Funny, fascinating, and really surprising.




That's correct. See you there.

If they did that, I will try to identify them as some people mentioned already, after getting ready with my weapon.

If they don't respond, lock and load. Hold fire but double tap as necessary.

If they do respond, I will tell them to get out of my house and talk them through the door. If they don't, as a property owner, I will force them out.


That said, I will probably not see the next sun rise, but I too won't be the only one going down.

Then your education is pretty limited, because the research I have is far more than statistics and the largest single part of it comes from the US Federal Government. In addition, the biggest single US Government study was written by President Nixon's hand-picked law-and-order rightwing cronies.



If you do, I can pretty much guarantee it will surprise the hell out of you. Not what you expected at all.

One good place to start is the short history of the marijuana laws at [url]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm[/url]  Funny, fascinating, and really surprising.




That's correct. See you there.

Most folks I have "intruded upon" are so godamn sleepy they cannot hardly understand the commands. Others are scared shitless and freeze. I have seen very few other reactions, the only one I can remember is some dumbass trying to run out the back door.(He didnt make out)

I cant help but laugh with all the keyboard commandos mantaining "I'll get'em with my .45!", or "Shoot'em in the face!" Not likely, but we are prepared for it.

Well if the entry team is good at what they do thats what will happen kay9-but if the entry team is good they aren't very likely to go to the wrong address now are they?

I cant beleve though that you don't often raid houses that have at least some occupants awake-the drug culture is noted for keeping vampire hours. Especally meth users.

But how would you know that they are cops Paul? Yes they are supposed to shout "police police" and all that, but sometimes they forget-and criminals will pose as officers.

well kay9, you sound like a ignorant cop that doesnt expect to run into someone that actually has some training and still practices that training. i have a little training which i choose not to talk about, but i can tell u that in a situation, there would be some casualties on your end. there will be no .45 or shooting in the face, just the sound of sustained defensive fire coming your way. your kevlar wouldnt help you.
the probability of this scenario ever happening is extremely low, and god forbid i ever have to get in that situation with police or any federal agency, i would never wish death or pain on any police officer, but with home invasions increasing throughout the us i would protect myself and my family with deadly force.

i want to clarify that i wouldnt knowingly blast real police officers, but since im very legal in all regards i dont expect that i would have a entry team coming into my house so i would protect my home accordingly.

Set off the Thermo-Nuclear device in the garage of course!

If I'm gonna go, might as well take innocent civies with me, after all I'm gonna be dead, what'll the Gov't do? Bitch slap my burnt body?

put on my gas mask and hit the button that floods the house with zyklon-B

What did you do? shoot him in the back?

LOL, you are really sumfin!! Name calling and skirt facts when you get frustrated.

[b]Read your sig line!![/b] You imply that JBT`s save lives!! They don't!! I doubt the page you refer to in said sig line is about JBT`s (real cops maybe but not JBT`s). You must consider yourself a JBT so that is my problem with you. Why would you even refer to yourself as one or want to be affiliated with JBT`s?

You my friend are off the charts and should seek help from the department shrinks.


And if I ever catch you banging my wife again!!![:D]

So the weak-minded druggies are the ones responsible for many gun laws?

"Hi.  I'm from the office of Pre-Crime."

[rolleyes]

Kill 'em all, or as many of them as you can.[frag]

If you survive, then you can worry about the consequences later.  If you don't, it's a moot point at best.

I am not a fan of JBTs, I do support law enforcement generally.  I have no problem with most of the functions of typical police departments, I do not care for quite a bit of the SWAT mentality but these days it is a must, in most cities.  I think the idea that everyone is a criminal is crap, but in a war everyone is a potentional enemy so that mindset is required for that line of work. Even, the weed smoker website list of folks killed in wrongful raids has three or four a year being fatal nationwide.  Considering the total number of drug raids, the cops seem to be correct more often than not.

If you really want to stand toe to toe with a dozen guys, armed to the teeth, armored and revved up to shoot, who are actually law enforement you are an idiot.  In five minutes they will realize they have it wrong and apologize.  Do you really think that donning your foil hat and blasting away is going to make them stop?

I have been armed and confronted by scumbags more than once, it is easier to resolve a problem without drawing your gun than after it is drawn.  Massoud Ayoob wrote a book on the "escalation of force", the military preaches "escalation of force" in the typical use of force training. If they are real cops (the assumption of this topic) the are not typically allowed to shoot the unarmed.  You waving a gun around makes it nothing but worse.

The incidents of fake LEO SWAT teams home invading are rare.  The only home invasion victum I met in person, was bum rushed in his sleep, he rolled over to find a guy standing over him.  He had his hand was under the covers on a .45.  He remained calm and talked to them, they took money from his wallet and left.  He could have no doubt killed the first two guys, but three and four were in the hall out of view.  He lived, going 4 to 1 from the bed only sounds like a good idea in the movies.  

This thread is great.

It has shown who the JBTs of the board are.

It has shown who the sheep of the board are.

[^]

One of my friends is in a SWAT team, and based on our interactions, he said I would definitley be killed by SWAT. I guess it doesn't help that I have flamethrower rounds for my 12 gauge.

Well that is a very real possibilty. I haven't seen many of the people here say anything about SURVIVING such a encounter. If the cops don't do their job right it could lead to a tragic blue on blue incident.

A marine corps buddy of mine is on the local twat team as well. He says the best thing I can hope for in a "wrong house no-knock raid" is to put one or more of them down in the initial entry attempt which will cause them to pull back and rethink and then I can start communications with them and maybe they'll figure out they made a mistake. Of course that would still mean jail time and lots of money for lawyers. Definately a lose-lose situation.

Some of you cops really need to get over your fantasy of your "advanced training" making you invincible. Some of us have had much better training and experience (uncle sams misguided children) than you and would fight with extreme prejudice if our home was invaded. "Sorry, wrong house" don't cut with with me, damn straight you gonna be sorry.

At least some of the judges are coming around as I read a few months back about a guy that was involved in a "wrong house no-knock". He shot up a few cops that raided his house and got off because even the judges are getting tired of the cops mistakes in these no-knock raids. Apparently it went down like my swat friend said "Take a few out, they'll back off and want to talk then."

I'd get my ass blown off, that's what.

Even though I've trained with the local SWAT and SORT teams.

You don't keep your firearms in your house Paul?
No pre-ban or Class III or AOW's?

By the nature of our hobby, lots of people here on this board have many reasons for their house to be a home invasion target.

odds are people that think they dont live in areas that will be raided by swat, or the potential for home invasions, are fooling no one but themselves.

As stated in a thread a few days back:

There are no safe, or good, neighborhoods anymore.

Drug Dealers dont just live in trailor parks.  SWAT teams dont just 'no-knock' crack houses.

The JBT (SWAT TEAM] should turn off water at meter,surround the house then announce their intentions over loud speakers!

If they are indeed after large quanties of drugs the dealers they cannot flush enough with one flush!

If its the wrong address you can bet the homeowner will comply with any demands you make!

Then its no harm no foul!    Anything other than that I don't Know what I would do I sleep like Lee Marvin a loaded .45 under my pillow,and a crickets fart will wake me up from a dead sleep!

The rifle of choice for any night depends on how I feel,sometimes a FAL,sometimes an AK,and lately the Bushy 16 seams quite(orange alert)  fine!

 Bob