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Posted: 5/28/2003 3:32:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Quoted: I read on another board that she went into cardiac arrest [b]two hours[/b] after the raid. BTW; They didnt raid the wrong house. They went to the right house. A judge thought the informants information was reliable enough to issue a warrant. Time will tell if the informant was blowing smoke or if the cops just had bad timing and hit the house while inventory was low. So, they raided the right house and just didn't find what they were looking for? Correct. This was not a case of kicking in the door of 123 First street when the warrant says 123 Second street. A [b]JUDGE[/B] issued a search warrant for the house based on all the information know at the time. Sometimes when you serve a search warrant the contraband has been moved before you get there and you come up empty handed. I've learned that the drug dealers in my area typical pick up theri inventory for the weekend sales of Thursday night. A search on thursday morning will generally turn up nothing. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 3:53:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Is it so damm hard to stakeout the house for a couple of days to see if there is the type of traffic typically associated with drug dealers?
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Posted: 5/28/2003 3:54:12 PM EDT
[#3]
No one will get fired ....... The Union will make sure of that !
[peep] |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:04:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: You talked about the need for an investigation; I assume you meen an [i]internal[/i] investigation right? Blue corrupts Oly Isn't this like the wolves investigating the wolf that raided the chicken coop? |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:10:23 PM EDT
[#5]
[i]NOTE: I'm not a 'cop basher' but I've seen this in so many other threads that I can't resist...[/i]
[b][red][size=4]The important thing is the [u]officers[/u] made it home [u]safe[/u] that night.[/size=4][/red][/b] |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:18:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: what happens if they refuse to speak? Any discipline, up to and including termination, that the dept. sees fit. Really easy way to get fired. Most depts. won't stand for it. Nor will anyone else who is in a position to make decisions about the termination, civil servce hearings etc. in other words, if they refuse to tell the boss what happened, they get fired Fired, then he starts working two days later in another nearby jurisdiction (with letter of recommendation from C.O.), the murderers continue to hide behind the 'Blue Wall'. Meanwhile, the victim's family is planning a funeral. How many of the cops responsible for the MURDER do you think will ever apologize to the family? |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:18:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Isn't homocide used for intentionally killing someone and manslaughter used if it was an accident? Or am I thinking of something else?
At any rate, I don't think that the officer is directly responsible. He had no way of knowing that she would have a heart attack. That being said, I think that no-knock warrants are one of the stupidest things that we have going on right now. I think that there should be a specific crime associated with accidently raiding the wrong house, whether somoeone dies or not. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:21:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Isn't homocide used for intentionally killing someone and manslaughter used if it was an accident? Or am I thinking of something else? Homicide is the killing of a human by another human, however it happens. Manslaughter and murder are legal terms defining the type of homicide. At any rate, I don't think that the officer is directly responsible. He had no way of knowing that she would have a heart attack. That being said, I think that no-knock warrants are one of the stupidest things that we have going on right now. I think that there should be a specific crime associated with accidently raiding the wrong house, whether somoeone dies or not. Just another thing that we can thank the war on drugs for causing -- just like gun prohibition. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:24:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Here is a simple term for you civilians to look up: COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Deal with it. I doubt that you'd feel the same way if it was YOUR grandmother. Also - Cops ARE civilians, you only THINK that you're above the law. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 6:28:09 PM EDT
[#10]
I think this case is tainted now. When johnnie cochran got involved, it became all about the benjamins now. Why get a high-priced celebrity lawyer involved suing for 500 million smackaroos at a time that the city is having budget probs?
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:05:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Yes, excuse me for believing in those sill old fashioned ideals that are embodied in the Constitution Funny you should say that in defense of government employees who violated how many amendments to said constitution? Amendment IV The right of the people to be [red]secure in their persons, houses,[/red] papers, and effects, against [red]unreasonable searches and seizures[/red], shall not be violated, and [red][b]no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[/b][/red] Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, [red]nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law[/red]; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. And I bet Amendments VI through VIII would be applicable as well. That's just for starters. I guess I have to "dumb it down" for certain people, like you. I CAN NOT believe that a warrant based only on an imformants say so was enough to justifiy a warrant. I am having a problem with that. I think that is the heart of the problem. I don't think the warrant should hve been issued if it was based on that weak information. Do you get that? in other words warrant, bad, no good. I can't dumb it down past that. If you still don't get it, I'll try and find an interpreter to make the message simpler for you. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:12:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I guess I have to "dumb it down" for certain people, like you. You're so good at dumbing things down, why, you must be a natural. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:16:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: I CAN NOT believe that a warrant based only on an imformants say so was enough to justifiy a warrant. I am having a problem with that. I think that is the heart of the problem. I don't think the warrant should hve been issued if it was based on that weak information. Do you get that? in other words warrant, bad, no good. I can't dumb it down past that. If you still don't get it, I'll try and find an interpreter to make the message simpler for you. I think that you are having a hard time imagining that it just might be the cop's fault. You're pointing fingers at everyone except the cops that obtained AND executed the warrant. Why would they ask for a warrant w/o solid info to back it up. The cops initiated the warrant process and the cops executed the warrant. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:18:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I read on another board that she went into cardiac arrest [b]two hours[/b] after the raid. BTW; They didnt raid the wrong house. They went to the right house. A judge thought the informants information was reliable enough to issue a warrant. Time will tell if the informant was blowing smoke or if the cops just had bad timing and hit the house while inventory was low. So, they raided the right house and just didn't find what they were looking for? Correct. This was not a case of kicking in the door of 123 First street when the warrant says 123 Second street. A [b]JUDGE[/B] issued a search warrant for the house based on all the information know at the time. Sometimes when you serve a search warrant the contraband has been moved before you get there and you come up empty handed. I've learned that the drug dealers in my area typical pick up theri inventory for the weekend sales of Thursday night. A search on thursday morning will generally turn up nothing. Whooptee shit. A [b]judge[/b] issued a warrant for the Ismael Mena raid in Denver based on the information known (and possibly falsified) at the time. What does that have to do with anything? If they'd found something during the initial search, I wouldn't be so harsh. But they didn't. Like it or not, they are directly responsible for the death of that woman. But let's ignore that. After all, she was probably guilty of [i]something[/i]. And given enough time, I would bet they can prove it in court, too. [rolleyes] Once again, those on the other side of the "thin blue line" refuse to admit the possibility that your "brothers" may have fucked up in a big way. Too bad you don't grant us peons the same level of consideration. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:24:15 PM EDT
[#15]
I'd totally support legislation that makes police responsible to serve the time due for a criminal charge if the defendant is found to be innocent.
To restate that in less obtuse terms: If a cop arrests me for DUI, and I win in court, the COP should be forced take the punishment that I would have gotten if I'd been convicted. This approach would result in the police acting only when there is no doubt as to the validity of an arrest or the clarity of the circumstances surrounding it. No sketchy arrests, no questionable tactics. Just pure, honest police work, done at the highest level of professionalism, with every I dotted and every T crossed. I'd very much approve of such a positively controlled system. CJ |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:31:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Damn, a cop-bashing thread and I only get in at page three.
As for innocent til proven guilty, I believe some sort of local justice has RULED IT A HOMICIDE. Sounds like a crime has been committed here. As for the blue wall I rarely bother anymore. The only thing confronting them does is get them all wired up for their next day of scumbag beating. I have learned one very important lesson from the multiple dialogs I have had with them here. I do not trust them, I extremely wary of them in all including social circumstances and always go out of my way to avoid them. And before a bluey cries out with the obligatory "Just wait til you need us" I have only called your type to report a crime or to make sure my ass is covered if I have to do something. (i.e. *DA* "So why did you chase after the alledge criminal, why didn't you call the police first") |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Lets hand it once again to the "Boys in the Blue"!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: 5/28/2003 8:14:24 PM EDT
[#18]
A no-knock warrant is complete and utter bullshit. What the police are telling us is that the lives of innocent civilians are worthless when compared to their own.
If they really wanted to win the war on drugs they would go after the people USING them. The dealers would find themselves out of work pretty quick if their customers stopped using. |
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Posted: 5/28/2003 9:03:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Perhaps after a few multi million dollar lawsuits these PD's will be a little more sure of their intel before kicking in a door
That doesn’t matter one bit, the cops don’t pay the judgments, the tax payer does-Ergo, no lesson learned Before you get all wound up, I'm not saying that culpability shouldn't be established and harsh action taken. But perhaps there should be a thorough accurate investigation before conclusions are drawn. What is there to figuring out culpability-They hit the wrong damn house, they admit that!! Nothing will change unless they start getting their own houses knocked over when they hit the wrong houses, losing their jobs (probably work best) Law suits for $$$ do not lessons teach. Mark |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 5:31:39 AM EDT
[#20]
I want in on the cop bashing as well. Look at the upside in Melbourne Fl. in the later 80's a very similar event happened except the cop got killed.They raided a family with 3 children that was supposedly selling drugs off an anon tip and 2 hours of surveilance. well when officer enter main bedroom after the flashbang entry. Dad shot first officer thru the door with a pistol and missed his vest. He died return fire was over 20 rounds of pistol and 3 rounds shotgun. Dad and child were unharmed. teenage son possesed a small amout of marijauna. dad was first charged with murder then manslaughter and finally was freeed without charges. I have witness cop lieing under oath first hand buit that is another topic. They should all be charged and fired. The constitution does not have any LEO exemptions check it out.
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Posted: 5/29/2003 5:42:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: I CAN NOT believe that a warrant based only on an imformants say so was enough to justifiy a warrant. I am having a problem with that. I think that is the heart of the problem. I don't think the warrant should hve been issued if it was based on that weak information. Do you get that? in other words warrant, bad, no good. I can't dumb it down past that. If you still don't get it, I'll try and find an interpreter to make the message simpler for you. I think that you are having a hard time imagining that it just might be the cop's fault. Of course, it was a detective that had an "imformant" and applied for the warrant. Which should be investigated to make sure that the detective accurately reported the info from the informant when applying for the warrant, and as long as we are at that they should make sure there was an informant. You're pointing fingers at everyone except the cops that obtained AND executed the warrant. Did you happen to see my short list of just a few of the questions that I would want answered. Did you happen to read it? Here's the big on, did you comprehend it? I had questions why the are commander was summarily relieved. Did he have any knowledge of this incident until the person died? Perhaps that should be answered BEFORE he get relieved. Why would they ask for a warrant w/o solid info to back it up. Again that's one of my questions. Also why does an informants say so = PC. I find that troubling, and think there is a bigger problem. Search warrants should be applied for with multiple pieces of corroborating evidence. IE, an infomant, and a "controlled buy", etc. Not just an informant. The cops initiated the warrant process and the cops executed the warrant. Yes, they did. ESU gets a call to serve a warrant. They see the warrant. Are you saying that they whould have to launch a seperate investigation to see if the warrant is valid? The answer is no. But still, I'm having problems with the informant based warrant anyway. |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 6:45:18 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I'd totally support legislation that makes police responsible to serve the time due for a criminal charge if the defendant is found to be innocent. To restate that in less obtuse terms: If a cop arrests me for DUI, and I win in court, the COP should be forced take the punishment that I would have gotten if I'd been convicted. This approach would result in the police acting only when there is no doubt as to the validity of an arrest or the clarity of the circumstances surrounding it. No sketchy arrests, no questionable tactics. Just pure, honest police work, done at the highest level of professionalism, with every I dotted and every T crossed. I'd very much approve of such a positively controlled system. CJ Still running for town sheriff? Im sure they will love you if you win |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 7:33:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Damn, a cop-bashing thread and I only get in at page three. As for innocent til proven guilty, I believe some sort of local justice has RULED IT A HOMICIDE. Sounds like a crime has been committed here. Homocide does not equal criminal. I guess it's hard to understand that when your complete understanding of the law is based on what you saw a TV last night. |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 7:36:28 AM EDT
[#24]
Apparently many here think the SWAT team, or street cops searving the search warrants, should double check the work of the investigators and Judges before serving the warrant?
that would be awful redundant for a investigator to put togather a case, have the judge reveiw the case and issue a warrant, and then have some rookie dooor kicker go wait a minute, we need to do this all over again, I'll redo your 18 month investigation and get back to you and the judge. |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 7:56:15 AM EDT
[#25]
I'm having trouble tracking the arguement here. I think there is just too much critical info missing to justify any real arguement, just as Oly has mentioned.. Everything is based on hypotheticals. All we know, is a women died, shortly after the raid, and there may well be a connection. She could have been Grandma Moses, or Grandma The Dealer From Hell. We don't know. I'm sure they'll do toxicology tests on her too.
Let's see what the facts show. We'll be able to judge coverup or not, when the dust settles a bit.. |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 8:06:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Apparently many here think the SWAT team, or street cops searving the search warrants, should double check the work of the investigators and Judges before serving the warrant? that would be awful redundant for a investigator to put togather a case, have the judge reveiw the case and issue a warrant, and then have some rookie dooor kicker go wait a minute, we need to do this all over again, I'll redo your 18 month investigation and get back to you and the judge. Anyone who kicks in a citizens door, while armed, needs to make DAMN sure their actions will result in PERSONAL accountability, and can withstand scrutiny. Morally, (if not legally), we will be judged..... |
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Posted: 5/29/2003 8:36:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Apparently many here think the SWAT team, or street cops searving the search warrants, should double check the work of the investigators and Judges before serving the warrant? that would be awful redundant for a investigator to put togather a case, have the judge reveiw the case and issue a warrant, and then have some rookie dooor kicker go wait a minute, we need to do this all over again, I'll redo your 18 month investigation and get back to you and the judge. Maybe not a "rookie door kicker", but how hard would it be for someone outside that investigation to spend a few minutes doing some legwork. In this case all it would have taken is somebody asking the building super who lived in there, and possibly watching who comes and goes for a few hours, to cast enough doubt on the info to have prevented this. Perhaps a saftey measure would be having an outside officer verify that adresses are correct, that the listed occupants of the building are correct, so forth and so on. Plus pre-raid intel that at least provides pictures of the proper building so the officer know where to go (that would have prevented the tradgedy in TN last year wher the officers hit the wrong house, there were only two on the road and one was brick one was a trailer, and a man died defending his home). I know you will probably counter that in soem cases the additional investigation may tip off the criminals and you will loose the element of suprise, but I would rather see a few more criminals get by than see more innocent people dead. Yeah, it may be redundant as you say, but redundancy breeds safety. I am thankfull that the aircraft I fly in are maintained with redundant procedures, and operated with redundant saftey equipment. |
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