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Posted: 5/25/2003 4:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 4:41:27 PM EDT by VoodooChile]
Many of us shoot .45 because of it's highly regarded effectiveness in a gunfight. 10mm on the other hand is no slacker as well. What is it about 10mm that makes it the black sheep? Cost of ammo, Gun selection, Recoil? Would it be more popular if the FBI had gone with it in the first place? The only reason I'm carrying .45 instead of 10mm is because I haven't sorted out a Failure To Eject problem in my Glock 29 yet. [pistol]
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:19:17 PM EDT
When the .40 came around it pretty much died. nobody cares for such a large cartridge for defense anymore. .45 has a cult following, I doubt it will ever die. I intend to trade my G21 for a USP .45, and shoot plenty of .45 Super.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:20:51 PM EDT
Less of a selection and ammo cost too damned much.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:27:27 PM EDT
.45 is an easy-shooting, accurate, effective round. It's relatively low pressure, so easier on guns. 10mm has more range, but anyone who needs the extra range needs a rifle/carbine. I like the 10mm, but (except for a few special situations) it's not enough better than the .45 to be worth the extra cost/gun wear/recoil. YMMV.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:32:48 PM EDT
Horse Puckey, Balderdash, and Roachmilk. There is PLENTY of 10MM ammunition available from any one of the innumerable warehouses that stock it on the wholesale level. Loaded to all pressure levels, all bullet types, and anything you could ever want. The 10MM is the greatest thing to come along in handguns in a long, long while. And the Glock 20, which offers 16 of them, is the best handgun yet to be devised. The only reason it "died" is becasue the FBI shortloaded it for female agents- the .40 S&W was born, and with the FBI no longer using it, the 90% of gun owners who buy a particular model based on what uses flocked away. From a performance standpoint, there is NOTHING that bests the Glock 20. 16 Rounds of 600/700 FPE. Checkmate. The end. And don't cry about the Glock trigger. Unless you have the manual dexterity of a 3 year old, one should have no problem mastering it. I can hit a torso sized target at 100 yards from a rest with my G20's. Can I really ask any more? Other than that, the 10MM has had a helluva renaissance as of late. Get a Glock 20, and be done.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:34:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bud: The ammo is expensive, but I love my Glock 20. There is just something about holding 16 rounds of .41 magnum in your hand when you [u]really[\u] need it. The .40 S&W is just a 10mm "lite." Kind of like comparing a .38 Special to a .357 Magnum. It caught on when the feds decided that a manly round was too much for the new recruit standards. [peep] Let the games begin.
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*edited to say that Merril_B beat me to the punch. Listen to him!!
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 5:15:35 PM EDT
I think I will use ACP for practice, +p for defense, and Super for bears and other large beasts. I know 10mm is a great round, even if a wee bit weaker than .45 Super, but I can't get a USP 10, and I dont want to pay for 10 ammo. Plus, the big benefit of 10 is higher mag cap, which is moot these days.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 5:27:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: Plus, the big benefit of 10 is higher mag cap, which is moot these days.
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Capacity is only "moot" when trying to rationalize another gun. Like the USP. Great gun, but it ain't no Glock 20. More is better, period. Always, end of story.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 5:47:33 PM EDT
Merril hit the nail on the head.The 10mm lacks in popularity because too many people listen to the "Gun Writer Gods" who gave it a death sentence 15-20 yrs ago for being too powerful.Just look at the ballistics of a true 10mm round,not those downloaded to 40S(hort)&W(eak) specs.Nomex suit on!!!
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 6:04:47 PM EDT
When the ban expires next year, my first purchase will either be a Glock 20 and a pile of mags, or a USP45 with a pile of mags and some good 230gr +p loads. Leaning towards the G20, but we'll see how well I shoot either one compared to the Series '70 that currently pulls nightstand duty. Next on my list will be a trip to the smith to have the barrel threaded on my AR... so I can get one of those cool golfball launchers! [BD]
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 6:08:19 PM EDT
I plan on gorging on Glock 20 mags too. At one time I had seven 3rd Generation FML preban G20 mags- I currently have one (and 5 NFML's) My last selling price fcor a 3rd Gen G20 mag was $165. They are the most expensive preban pistol mag out there... If per chance we get a reprieve from the ban, I will buy fifty 15 round G20 mags, and roll around naked in them.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 6:17:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 6:17:28 PM EDT
It's hard to add anything to what Merril has already said. I personally think this round is on the verge of a major "comeback". All it would take is another manufacturer or two taking a chance and making something new chambered in 10mm. I've shot almost every (modern) handgun caliber there is and my favorite [b]by far[/b] is the 10mm.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:04:51 PM EDT
I agree with Cerebus & Merril. For hunting flat open country with a handgun, or for defense in the same areas, a 10mm will shoot the pants off a .45 ACP. There are times when you can't carry a rifle or a carbine, and the 10mm is excellent in that roll. It shoots flat and is accurate with enough energy to do the job downrange when needed, much better than the .45 ACP beyond 25 meters. Recoil may have been a problem for the FBI, and it wasn't just female agents having a problem with the recoil, it was a bunch of the weak wristed male agents that complained as well. A lot of people, me included, like such a large cartridge for defense. Better to have too much (which the 10mm isn't) than not enough.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:09:50 PM EDT
I've always liked the 10mm seems like it would be a great carbine round( I wish for a MP5/10mm!) A G20 with pre-ban mags is serious fire power the G20 & G21 are just too big for me I'd like a Delta Gold Cup someday a +P .45ACP is right on it's heels though
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:17:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2003 10:23:13 AM EDT by warlord]
Originally Posted By Merril_B: Horse Puckey, Balderdash, and Roachmilk. And the Glock 20, which offers 16 of them, is the best handgun yet to be devised. The only reason it "died" is becasue the FBI shortloaded it for female agents- the .40 S&W was born, and with the FBI no longer using it, the 90% of gun owners who buy a particular model based on what uses flocked away.
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Two things, I spoke with a Glock rep about the G20, and he says it was built from the ground up to handle the more powerful 10mm round. The Glock 10s may look like there less powerful counter parts, but internally everything is stonger to handle the power of the 10mm. I was at the FBI HQ tour for a firepower demo 2 years ago, and they are still using there MP5/10s. I had an oppurtunity to shoot an MP5/10 an another outing and you can really feal the difference in recoil over the 9mmNATO version. The recoil is a lot more powerful, but not uncontrollable.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:35:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Merril_B:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: Plus, the big benefit of 10 is higher mag cap, which is moot these days.
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Capacity is only "moot" when trying to rationalize another gun. Like the USP. Great gun, but it ain't no Glock 20. More is better, period. Always, end of story.
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I have a G21 with a grip reduction and 2 15s, 1 13. The grip aint quite right for me. I havent shot the USP yet, so I will have to rent one before I get one, I dont like buying without trying. I like the capacity of the G20, but the USP is really growing on me.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:43:31 PM EDT
The only reason it "died" is becasue the FBI shortloaded it for female agents- the .40 S&W was born, and with the FBI no longer using it, the 90% of gun owners who buy a particular model based on what uses flocked away.
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So that's happened to it. I remember when the 10 came out there was all this uproar about what a great caliber it was and then....gone. From around here anyway, nobody stocks them and I don't know anyone who owns one. Which is a shame cause I'd like to shoot one.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:49:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 7:52:05 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
IMO its because its not a NATO round. Personally ALL my guns are NATO caliber. Well, almost. I have a several 7.62x39 guns.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:10:11 PM EDT
10mm is cool. But its not a .45........
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:17:49 PM EDT
I think there is just so much diversity in ammo,there are only so many customers and limited room in the market place. As far as (IMO)full power auto's go the 9mm and .45 have pretty much saturated the market. Then the 10mm comes out as an alternative(high cap and more power)and the .40 sorta surprise and takes whatever market would have been there for the 10mm. After the high cap mag ban,.45 had a resugent popularity. Plus with .45 super owners of beefy .45 auto's now have a pretty decent step up in power for hunting. There is nothing wrong with 10mm,could be argued that its one of the more versitaile cartridges,there is just only so much market share out there.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:23:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 8:24:12 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Hard to find in my corner of the world. And notorious for being rough on anything except the Glocks. I wouldnt lose sleep over it if I had to carry one to save my bacon. Those 175gr Silvertips are mighty impressive looking.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:37:48 PM EDT
[url]http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/[/url] Dan Wesson "Razorback"
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 10:53:01 PM EDT
What do you people have to say about the 29 as a ccw? Oz
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 11:20:18 PM EDT
One of the first things i'll buy in sept 2004 is a EAA Witness fullsize 10mm. i think the disaster that was the Bren 10 has something to do with the fate of the 10mm round. Its was a good gun from what i heard, but they were sold with out mags. WTF?! if (God Forbid) the AW ban is renewed, i think i'll buy a 1911 style 10mm. its a great round. Ben, The Emu
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 11:40:22 PM EDT
Personally, I believe the 10mm Auto is a bit too powerful for civilian CCW purposes. The originaly FBI specs called for, what, 13 inches minimum penetration, even through heavy clothes and stuff? The liabilty of over-penetration is too great. But, still, it's a great round. Very controllable in the full-sized Smith & Wesson autos. But BOOM.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 11:48:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: IMO its because its not a NATO round. Personally ALL my guns are NATO caliber. Well, almost. I have a several 7.62x39 guns.
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.40 isn't NATO either.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 12:18:07 AM EDT
a local dealer here has a SW 1076 10mm, the old FBI model, at least briefly. i can't remember what he's asking for it, but i was intrigued. any of you guys have an opinion about this particular model of 10mm?
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 3:50:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:15:41 AM EDT
for a while there, i thought i was in Glocktalk....
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:23:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_camera_man: Leaning towards the G20, but we'll see how well I shoot either one compared to the Series '70 that currently pulls nightstand duty.
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I sleep [i]VERY[/i] well with my G20 on nightwatch! That is one badass load, hicaps help make it one badass defense weapon. Penetration for the world. 10mm scores a perfect 10!
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:35:15 AM EDT
Count me in as a 10 Nut as well. I have 5 of them right now and want more. Very Good Thread Here. Glock 20 & 29, S&W 1006, Witness, Colt Delta Gold Cup. MM419
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:43:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sir_osis_of_thuliver: a local dealer here has a SW 1076 10mm, the old FBI model, at least briefly. i can't remember what he's asking for it, but i was intrigued. any of you guys have an opinion about this particular model of 10mm?
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Yah if you don't take it, give me the dealer info and I'll take it off his hands.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:31:35 AM EDT
Originally 10mm was loaded plenty hot. The Bren Tens supposedly were not very good guns. The ones that were supposedly would "shoot themselves apart" at about 500 rounds. The Delta Elites in 10mm were beter quality but were also known for loosening every screw on the gun, quickly, and regularly. Service life wasn't that great. S+W 1076, oh geez, these guns were redesigned to have a Sig-Sauer like decocker. The design change resulted in a weapon that could lock up due to the decocker deisgn. The gun wouldn't fire, the slide could't be racked. So the gun became a large paperweight, that was unfixable in the field. .45 was just barely beat by the 10mm in the tests. I don't believe the round was downloaded because of women agents. You see FBI agents, are basically accountants with guns. When surveyed about what the wanted in a service weapon they gave responses like, must be easy to conceal while wearing a suit, little to no recoil. large mag. capacity, light, compact, and devestating rounds. Do some of those qualities seem diametrically opposed? They downloaded the 10mm because although firearms afficianados could use 10mm with out too much adjustment. Accountants with guns couldn't. The 10mm the FBI wne to was appx the same power as the new .40 S+W. I'm intrigued by 10mm..................
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:34:36 AM EDT
I like the 10mm as well. I've owned a 1006 long ago, and it was built like a tank. The 1006 had the normal S&W safety, and I've heard of the decocker giving problems in the 1076. I also heard there was a fix for it, but without knowing details, I won't comment. It was a VERY accurate gun though, and no harder to shoot than a .45ACP really, even with full-power loads. I currently own a Colt Delta Elite, and I've been eyeing the 610 pretty hard recently. If I ran across a 1076 for a good price, I'd probably take a chance on one. The popularity of the round suffered from the .40SW. The .40 did what many people thought they wanted, and it fits in a smaller gun. The 10mm requires a bigger framed gun, so people who don't want a big frame, cross off .45 and 10mm right off the list. The effect of what's hot in the LE market, regardless of how much sense it makes, can't be underestimated. 10mm is a great round, but it won't be the huge commercial seller that it may have been. More a matter of timing than anything else. There's enough of a 10mm following to justify a selection of ammo, and probably enough to justify another gun or two, but probably not enough for every maker to come out with one. Just not enough market. Same fate as a .41 Mag. Great round, just not a big enough market. Ross
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:07:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Merril_B: I plan on gorging on Glock 20 mags too. At one time I had seven 3rd Generation FML preban G20 mags- I currently have one (and 5 NFML's) My last selling price fcor a 3rd Gen G20 mag was $165. They are the most expensive preban pistol mag out there... If per chance we get a reprieve from the ban, I will buy fifty 15 round G20 mags, and roll around naked in them.
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I have eight of those Mags five of them are brand new never fired. I have not shot my G20 yet, I actually tried to sell it a couple of times due to the size of it. I am a good sized guy, but I am cursed with small hands, so the G20 doesn't fit my grip as I prefer a Pistol to fit in my hands. If the AWB sunsets I would like to see a picture of those fifty Mags in a pile [size=3] Before you roll around Naked in them if you don't mind.[/size=3][}:D]
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:12:56 AM EDT
The day HK makes one, I'll buy it !! Mmmmmmm, USP 10mm.......
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:24:53 AM EDT
Exactly. I would carry a 29 instead of a 30. I had a 29 but it had really bad failure to feed and failure to eject, and stove pipe problems.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:40:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: The day HK makes one, I'll buy it !! Mmmmmmm, USP 10mm.......
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........mmmmmmm.....compact....
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:40:33 AM EDT
The 29 Design has had some extractor issues, which cause FTE issues. It's a really easy fix, but it pisses me off that Glock won't just remedy it at the factory. If I have to hear another pissed off G29 owner mad (rightfully so) about his G29 pistol not working, i'm gunna go nuts. My 2nd 29 had this problem- I retensioned the extractor and it's been 100% up to this point (500 rounds or so). It's just such an easy fix that there is NO REASON glock chouldn't be doing it at the factory before the guns ship.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 9:32:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Merril_B: The 29 Design has had some extractor issues, which cause FTE issues. It's a really easy fix, but it pisses me off that Glock won't just remedy it at the factory. If I have to hear another pissed off G29 owner mad (rightfully so) about his G29 pistol not working, i'm gunna go nuts. My 2nd 29 had this problem- I retensioned the extractor and it's been 100% up to this point (500 rounds or so). It's just such an easy fix that there is NO REASON glock chouldn't be doing it at the factory before the guns ship.
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Maybe they are too busy supporting 'ballistic fingerprinting' to concern themselves with this matter. Besides, I thought Glocks were perfect pistols and ALL problems were a result of bad ammo or limpwristing.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 9:36:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Besides, I thought Glocks were perfect pistols and ALL problems were a result of bad ammo or limpwristing.
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Usually, it is. But in the case of the 29, the extractorrs are set too deep. Just another case of Glock bettered grandpappys pistol, I guess. Eh Larry?
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 9:37:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: It is a solution without a problem.
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BINGO.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 10:01:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 11:13:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Originally 10mm was loaded plenty hot. The Bren Tens supposedly were not very good guns. The ones that were supposedly would "shoot themselves apart" at about 500 rounds. The Delta Elites in 10mm were beter quality but were also known for loosening every screw on the gun, quickly, and regularly. Service life wasn't that great.
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Yep, according the a S&W brochure from the days when the 1006 was available, S&W claimed it was built from the ground up to handle the powerful 10mm round. My old close indoor range had a Colt Delta Elite, it crack the slide behind the ejection port after firing 2,500 rounds of factory PMC 10mm ammo and was replaced, and cracked the frame at 5,000 rounds and retired. I shoot 10mm ammo loaded to sub-45ACP levels in Delta Gold Cup to prevent equipment damage. The only drawback is that I can't find all that many spent 10mm cases on the range floor, not as plentiful as 9mm and 45ACP fired case to reload.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 3:54:23 PM EDT
I think you will see 10mm sales pick up after the AWB expires and you can get high-cap mags again. The AWB is really what slowed the 10mm's growth. The 40 S&W's shortcommings would have been revealed soon enough, the 9mm's were already known, but are partally covered by the high magazine capacities you can build into them. But the 10mm had both power and compactness in the most important dimension-width-and this would have surfaced after a few years of comparison.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:29:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: .45 has a cult following, I doubt it will ever die.
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That's some cult you're talking about there.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:32:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Merril_B: From a performance standpoint, there is NOTHING that bests the Glock 20. 16 Rounds of 600/700 FPE. Checkmate. The end. And don't cry about the Glock trigger. Unless you have the manual dexterity of a 3 year old, one should have no problem mastering it. I can hit a torso sized target at 100 yards from a rest with my G20's. Can I really ask any more? Other than that, the 10MM has had a helluva renaissance as of late. Get a Glock 20, and be done.
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You forgot, it also floats. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:43:31 PM EDT
IMHO 10mm is better than .45ACP by any measurement.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:25:53 PM EDT
He..he..he..... marvl got it right,.45 acp is no "cult" round,its the proven grandaddy,big bore auto pistol cartridge. Nothing does everything,but the .45 's got what it takes.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:33:24 PM EDT
10mm does have the potential to be more destructive than .45ACP-unless you crank the .45 up to Super levels that not all handguns can handle. And 10mm does this while being skinny enough to fit easliy into a high cap. You can build a thinner frame for a 10 than for a .45 and still have 15 rounds. And the stack will be slightly shorter too. There is not yet a good bullet made though for 10mm Auto-or for .45 at the Super power level for that matter.
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