[URL]www.palestinemonitor.org/archives/shoottomaim.htm[/URL]

This complaint is brought to us by those wacky paly's who coat nails and shrapnel with RAT POISON (wafarin, coumadin etc.) so that those wounded in homicide bombings will not clot.

I feel for the paly's

NOT

Who gives a fuck what those animals think.  They joyfully suit up their 19 year old children with bombs and send them into civilian resutaurants and buses....then they're shocked, SHOCKED when the Israelis respond with deadly force.

Well maybe they should throw some 50BMG their way

I have no sympathy for those goddamn Palestinian camelfuckers and they should be counting themselves lucky that the Israelis are ONLY shooting in the leg and abdomen.

When America had a group of people like that, they were called Indians and slaughtered wholesale. I would not hold it against the Israelis for a second if they followed that lead.

Like I give a shit that they do stupid shit and get shot. Maybe they should quit throwing rocks.

Sounds like 5.56 is doing what it's supposed to....  Keep up the good work IDF!

[LOL]

The point is correct. 5.56 should not be used for crowd control. 12 gauge is a far better round.

If such things were happening in an american ghetto, we would be up in arms.

AND USING A 1 TON BOMB (killing 14 civies) TO KILL ONE PERSON IN A CITY, it not how I want my tax dollars spent.

(crap I hate these threads)

Damn good article. Warms my heart to know the 5.56 kicks ass.

kinda hard to throw rocks when you are paralyzed!

what kind of ammo are they using M193?

The Israeli government classifies the M16 as a crowd control weapon.

There is an easy solution to this problem.  Go back to the FAL.  See how the Pali's like 7.62x51mm.

The 5.56 is doing what it was design to do.  

So lets just drop the pretense of crowd control. In the same way why do we not drop the pretense of Israel offering America anything in return for the support we give her. (unless America decides to take over the entire middle east)



I would agree with this comment. It should be possible to make a much better crowd control round out of 7.62...

Another way they do it is to coat the nails in  aids blood or hepitist(can't spell) blood. If it don't kill you then,it will kill you later.

Shooting Hezbowhosit's, IJ's, etc. is a good enough return on tax dollar foreign aid in my book.  In fact, it's one of the best ways they could spend my tax dollars (and they take a lot of MY money).  Far better than 90% of what the Dem's do with it.  

Hmmmm... spend $1 on some ammo to kill a terrorist, or spend it on a welfare program where 72 cents is stolen or wasted and 28 cents goes towards perpetuating dependency and encouraging illegitimate births, Hmmm... tough choice, let me mull this one over. OK, I vote ammo for the IDF.    

Not really, who cares what happens to those animals in the ghetto.
Pretty close to palestinians to me.

***Cough. Cough***
Okay boys and girls, this proves the point that it's not such a bright idea to throw a rock at somebody with an M16...

I don't think *anybody* likes 5.56...

Well, except the gun rag commandos!

I think they're right... Lets stop using high-velocity ball ammunition on Palistinians.

I think a new, Improved, High-explosive round is in order.

[rolleyes]
(edit: damn typos)

Exactly! Those damn Indians! How dare they try to live on land that is promised to US!

Don't blame the 5.56, "Guns don't kill Palestinians, Israelis Do."

TROLL ALERT![nono]

I like the way this thread was just rolling along with a thoughtless post every few minutes, and after my statement, it takes an HOUR* for anyone to respond, and when they do, it's just to name call.

Can anyone argue against what I actually posted?

Not a troll,

ARgue


*Note: Actually, 54 minutes for those of you who can't dispute my statement and could only nitpick my claim of an "hour" of silence.

What would *YOU* do if a tank was rolling into your neigborhood?

It's not his neighborhood.  The Palistinians are not native to that land, and the Israelis are (read the Bible).  When the Brits left, the Arabs were all supposed to live in Jordan.  Then the Jordanins forked them (do a search on Black September).  

If somebody moved into my neighborhood and started sending their children into Starbucks strapped with Semtex and carpet tacks I'd be leaning towards the 5.56 option myself.    

Ok, so you're saying that a Palestinian Christian, who's family has been living in the same house in Palestine for the past 2000+ years (since the days Jesus Christ walked the land) is not native to the land, but someone who just immigrated to Israel from Brooklyn New York is?

You might want to do some research, and I'd start with the dictionary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=immigrate&r=3

(edited, because somethin funky about my post caused me to stop reading any posts after mine. I hope making the dictionary.com link 'cold' will fix it.. I'm eager to read your comments..)

I read the article and the common refrain was "we were throwing stones..."  Two comments.
1.  A stone is potentially lethal.  Do remember David and Goliath.  The Palestinians do like to use slings as well as hand thrown rocks.  Even the hand thrown rocks are potentially fatal.

2.  If your buddies have been getting shot for the last 10 years when they protest and throw stones, you'd think they'd get the hint and stop throwing stones.  I am personally on the Israeli side, but if the Palestinians wanted to stymie them completely, quit the terrorism and the stone throwing and go totally non-violent.  Even I would not support Israeli troops firing on peaceful protestors.  Israel would lose all arguements for counterstrikes if the terrorism/stone throwing stopped.

As it is, shooting the stone throwers is benefiting the Palestinian population by identifying and killing off the stupid ones.

Why argue I'm glad you asked.

Ok first I'd find a disalluisioned youth and tell him he needs to be a mayrtr.  Next I'd tell him if he conducts a suicide mission he'll be greeted by a heram of virgins in heaven.  I'd then take a "last picture" that would be plastered all over town.  After this I'd make sure he knows he'll be forever a hero of the palestinian people.  Finally to seal the deal I'd tell him Saddam H. over in Iraq would give his family a $20,000 check for his martyrdom operation.

Once the young disallusioned youth agreed I'd then make sure he took out as many innocent civillians as possible.  Better yet I'd have him detonate himself on a bus in the morning rush hour.  This way he'll take out Israeli children going to school.. A BONUS if I've ever seen one!  Now as the icing on the cake I'd make sure and coat the nails used in the bomb with AIDS tainted blood... I mean who cares if they're innocent civillians.  

Gee... Could the preceeding martyrdom operation be why the tank is there in the first place? No of course not... why would the Israeli's react in this manner, to a "hero of the plaestinian people"?

rssc

The byline of the article dates it as February 21.  Sharon was elected February 7, 2001 (run a google).

I wonder if those involved have learned anything in the two years since this article was written. Foremost, I'd hope they'd have learned by now that the M16/5.56 was designed to be less than lethal.  The cartridge was designed to tumble, often causing it to spiral and richocet when it struck bone or hard tissue, causing more internal damage.  I don't remember the exact quote, but a comment was made regarding the cartridge.  It went along the lines of "one soldier can bury several people an hour.  It takes several people to care for one wounded soldier."

Either way, this argument against the 5.56 is old.  And for those who are complaining, would they rather we replaced it with the 50BMG?  It won't shatter femur's, it'll just remove them.

Reply
I keep getting the following halfway down the page. Should I be afraid that they are using vb?


 Posted - 05/25/2003 :  21:33:03
ARgue
Member


Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 10 of 10
USA

User Info Email User Reply Quote Send IM Message

Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a0009'

Subscript out of range: '[number: 1]'

/includes/functions.html, line 819

Sorry about that, I was getting the same error. I just made a link 'cold' and that seemed to correct the problem, FYI.

The Palestinians can have peace and a homeland anytime they want, by stopping the violence and terrorism. But this is not all they want they want the complete destruction of the State of Israel. They have already turned down what would have become a de-facto state with the Capital in Jerusalem.

THE PALESTINIANS DO NOT WANT PEACE.

If you do not want to be shot do not provoke the shooting.

The Palestinians are just lucky they are not dealing with an Arab government because if they were after 2 years of this bullsh*t their dead would number in the 10s of thousands.

It is estimated that in 1970 (in 11 days) The Jordanian Army killed 5000 thousand and wounded 20,000 Palestinians who became troublesome. The Jordanian Army did not use 5.56 they use unrestricted tank warfare and unrestricted airpower on Palestinian camps including massive use of napalm.

The Palestinian are very lucky the Israelis are as humane as they are.

Looks to me like another reason I am glad that I have one.  The way I see it is if youput yourself in a position to get shot, you suffer the consequences.  If they would learn to stop throwing molotav cocktails at the IDF, suicide bombings and all their other BS, they wouldn't get shot.

I asked a couple questions, and was wondering if you given them any thought:

I understand your arguement, but the fact is that land has been faught over continuiously for that 2000 yrs and longer.
And just because you argue a contriversial subject doesn't make you a troll.
Sometimes it easier for some of these guys to call someone a troll than to come up with an intelligent response

It's not hard to understand at all.  Jordan for the arabs, Israel for the jews.  Then the Jordanians F'd the nomadic palistians.  BTW I never called you a troll.  

I appreciate the fact that you state your understanding of the issue and don't resort to name calling, thanks.

The best thing about AR15.Com is that there are so many different points of view and hearing them all out allows me to strengthen my understanding of the issue(s). I get to read what people have to say and then scrutinize their statements to determine if what they're saying makes any sense. And then the next time I hear or read about the issue (in the news or papers, etc.), I'll know about those different points of view, so I can weight the issues and points in my head, again. Check and double check. Everythings got to make sense for me.

Some here think that the Palestinians are subhuman. Some would like to just nuke the Palestinians and be done with it. Some say the Palestinians are "asking for it" because of their terrorism. Some think the Palestinians don't belong in Palestine. Some think that Palestinians could have peace if they would just stop doing things to make the Israelis "retaliate". And many more. I bet there are as many opinions on this, as there are members on this fine board.

By asking simple questions, and seriously analyzing an issue, we can blow holes in myths and misinformation. GLOCKshooter, your statements seem to make sense, but do they hold up to scrutiny? Do your "Israel for the jews" and "nomadic palistinians" statements hold up to the facts raised by this (see below) question?

50BMG? That's good advice, but they use more than that:

"...During a barrage of bullets and artillery, an Israeli tank shell blasted an indentation the size of a bowling ball in the thick stone facade of the two-century-old Holy Family Church, a complex with an orphanage, hospital, and hostel. The blast sprayed shrapnel onto a statue of the Virgin Mary, slicing off her hand and nose. A 16-year-old altar boy named Johnny was killed by a sniper on Church grounds as he played with his 4-year-old nephew, while another sniper claimed the life of the Church?s beloved 45-year-old bell-ringer as he walked to the Church to ring the bells at dawn, a routine he had performed every day since 1967..." [URL]http://www.palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20021224172236689[/URL]



Are Palestinian Christians who have lived in Palestine for 2000+ years (since the days Jesus Christ walked land) "goddamn Palestinian camelf*ckers"?

You did, however, hit the nail on the head with your Native American analogy. Who is invading who?



With a name like "passgas" I thought you'd be an expert on biological weapons, but sherm8404 already called your BS.









"ALL" of them? What about the people in the article below?



What "stupid shit" were *these* people doing?

120 Christian Homes in Jerusalem Area To Be Demolished By Israeli Soldiers:
[URL]http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=72[/URL]



Do we REALLY know what our taxes are paying for? Or do we get the 'basic idea' of what's going on from the news? Maybe we could ask one of the 120 families mentioned in the article above.



What "violence" were those 120 families perpetrating?

Who said the protesters aren't peaceful to begin with? Oh, that's right, the news media, reported said: "According to an Israeli Defense Forces spokesman, the soldiers opend fire to 'retaliate' against stone throwers." The media lie all day long about gun control, but when it comes to Israel, they are giving you 'fair and balanced' reporting? Think again. Seek out some alternative information sources. I knew the media was full of crap when it comes to the 2nd amendment, that's why I looked for and found AR15.com. You should do the same on this issue.



Ok, that's nice, but you didn't answer my question. What would you do?



Oh, really? Is that why the Palestinians have accepted President Bush's proposal for a "road map" to peace, while the Israelis have rejected it? The dixie chicks disrespected our president and you quickly spoke out, but do you boycott Israel when Sharon effectively slaps President George Bush in the face?



You see, you know that, which is good, but you've got to ask some *more* questions to come to a better understanding:

Why were the Palestinians in Jordan to begin with? ...Well, they were pushed out of Palestine by the Israelis. The Jordanian Army is wrong for killing thousands and using napalm, but the thing is, the Israelis are equally wrong as they "...dropped wave after wave of napalm and cluster bombs on schools, hospitals and apartment buildings, culminating in the around-the-clock terror-bombing of downtown Beirut in August, 1982. The Israelis killed an estimated 20,000 civilians in Lebanon..." [See: http://www.hoffman-info.com/index.html ]

I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to respond to you all. Is there ANYONE here that can answer the questions I raised?

Waiting,

ARgue


(edited, to fix quotes)

Send 'um back to Africa, oh wait... [;)]

In my opinion, it sounds like a bunch of little kids fighting over a toy(their land), and the mother(the international community) wont step in because she is affraid of starting a "holy war. When they put their heads together, and use a little common sense, the problem will be solved.

The Palestinian gov. needs to work with the Israiel gov to round up all the local terrorists. As it is obvous that the "Palis" arent doing enough to stop the deaths of Isreal civilians.

THEN, talk about peace.

Criminals in the US dont run free. Terrorists in any part of the world should be put to death.

I think that came out how I have put it together as I have watched over 3,000 people in Isreal die for no reason.  
Jason


**edited** - For typo/s

Well, well, well. It would appear a "Caped Crusader" has popped up to challenge a few assumptions..

Low post count, handles the board code well...
Hmmmmmm.. Fascinating Captain.

Welcome to the board ARgue!!  [:D]

I'm confused guys. Just how does the round act differently if fired at someone in a military uniform?

ARgue:

I think the whole Palestine/Israel situation is a cluster.  One that started in 1947 when the U.N. requested that Britain give Palestine its independance, creating two separate states (one Arab, one Jewish) in the process.

RE: bulldozing of Palestinian homes - Is it collective punishment or is it an act of defense, removing areas from which militant/terrorist acts are freely committed/encouraged?  I don't know.  Mainly because I don't live there, preventing me from fiding out exactly what is going on.

RE: news media bias - I think it's safe to assume that the news reports that we have seen are biased.  I also think it's safe to apply the same statement to many of the articles which have been posted in this thread.  By human nature, all news reports will be biased, one way or another.  In western media, one days' reports will mention someone throwing molotov cocktails.  In arab meda, the same days' reports will mention someone throwing rocks.  In this respect, I think the Brooklynite that has relocated to Israel is in a better position to comment on the situation than you or I.  After all, when was the last time you had to question whether or not your trip to the shopping mall might end in a blast.

RE:  Sharon's unwillingness for peace.  Sharon has a responsibility to his people.  As long as he's concerned about suicide bombings and other attacks, I think he will rightfully be skeptical.  If he's not, he's out of a job.  At the same time, one of his citizens may lose his/her life.  Not a good spot to be in.

RE:  Who wants peace?  If we go back to this recent (22+ month) flareup of violence, I do believe the beginning was touched off by a series of suicide bombings, followed my IDF retaliation.  Since then it's been a never-ending series of one-upmanship and retaliation that puts the feud between the Grape Street Crips and the 32nd Street Bloods to shame.

RE: biological agents in suicide bombs - I think it's been proven that extremists aren't using HIV/Hep B tainted blood.  At the same time, it has been proven that many of the devices have been augmented with rat poison, fertilizer, feces and ather agents that are specifically designed to cause infection and/or increase the liklihood of fatalities.  If the extremist's cause is so just, why try to cause maximum fatalities amongst civilians?  (If you remember, the first few months of the recent campaign had extremists detonating their vests at military checkpoints, encampments and other IDF targets.  Once the IDF started shooting suspicious people before they could detonate their payload, the campaign moved to civilian areas.)

As long as the general Palestinian population supports the extremist groups, there will be suicide bombings.  As long as there are such bombings, there will be retaliations by the IDF.  (I'm not going to guess whether or not these retaliations are extreme because I'm not sure what my reaction would be if a neighboring town was routinely sending bombs to my neighborhood.  I suspect that I'd be urging those in charge to use whatever force/means necessary to end make the bombings end.  But that's just me.)

I'm not sure how many people caught it, but early last week there was a large Palestinian protest in one of the border towns.  This protest flared up after the the IDF sent in a few tanks and military bulldozers to level some houses which had been used by militants to launch rockets at an Israeli town.  The difference:  the local Palestinians were protesting against the militants.  They blamed the extremists, not the IDF, for their troubles, for their recent homelessness.  If there were more events like this, as well as a refusal of the Palestinian populace to hide extremists, we could actually see the beginning of peace in the region.

As I said it's a cluster.  Until one side decides to move to greener pastures, I'm not sure if there is a solution.  Since I don't see that happening anytime soon (after all, both sides claim ancestoral ownership), I think even the new U.S. brokered road map is in for a rough implementation process.

Now, I'd like to ask you to ponder a few things.  How do events in Israel/Palestine affect you, in your home country?  Do you see a perceived threat in the wholesale acceptance by a population for these extremist actions?  Does it not concern you that the most of the Arab world, right or wrong, idolizes suicide bombers as martyrs?  Do you wonder if local groups who feel disenfranchised might see these methods as a viable option?

I sometimes muse these things because the international community is anxious to find some sort of settlement.  It's taken two years and countless deaths (many unnecessary) but the general consensus is that this crap needs to stop as soon as possible.  It seems that terrorism (by both sides depending on how you define it) might actually work.  It is upsetting to me that some people might get the impression that the end does justify the means.

I'm done babbling, especially since I am admittedly not that informed on the subject.

Edited to fix some typos.

Argue..

You mention the Fact that children are shot by Isreali snipers..

This has happened here in the US by the FBI  more that once.  Shot a man in the face with an M4 ... for driving in the way of a "HIGHLY Trained Agent" that was trigger happy.. Hell The ATF Burned down a House full of kids .. < thats right a house not a compund>  

where was the American outcry?

Didnt these agents get a promotion?



the question is :
does it really matter WHO owned it 2000 years ago while they walked with Jesus and Allah ?


Does that mean that a country cant change hands in the future?

If that was the case this land would still be English land and Indian terrortory...

And you'd be buying your ARs with pesos. [;)]

I also would be speaking Russian and would own an AK instead of my AR.