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Posted: 4/28/2001 3:50:16 PM EDT
I just came back from the local range about an hour ago. I am very disappointed with my 2 AR's. It's probably my fault but I don't know what I could have done to make these guns screw up. I took 4 guns total......... Olympic 20" with Colt match barrel Professional Ordnance CAR-15 16" rifle Romanian SAR-3 AK (.223 cal) Romanian WUM-1 AK (7.62x39 cal) I Wanted to try out these new VEPR .223 mag followers in my SAR-3 'cause I had a lot of trouble getting it to cycle with full mags.... There was also a guy there with his 13 yr old son shooting a Marlin semi 22LR. They both seemed quite interested in my guns. I was still having jams with the .223 AK, so I told them they could shoot my Olympic AR, if they were interested. Of course they both said "yeah,sure,that would be great". So, after the embarassment with the malfunctioning .223 AK ,I got out the Olympic AR-15 and showed the controls,safety etc...to the dad. I told him they could each shoot a 30 round mag, but, first I wanted to be sure the gun was still sighted in. Well, after it jammed 6-7 times with 3 different mags, I told them I'd let them shoot the CAR-15. I tried it first and....same shit, stovepipes and failure to eject. Soooooo, I only had 1 gun left to try, and had never shot it yet (got it Wed.) This was the WUM-1 AK-47 in 7.62x39. I went through 3- 30 round mags without a single failure of any sort. So I let the father have a go at it...30 rounds-NO PROBLEMS Then the 13 year old son........30 rounds-NO PROBLEMS Then it was time for the 100 round drum.....I wound the spring & started shooting non-stop rapid fire (1/sec) till the drum was empty .....100 rounds NO PROBLEMS.....I am now well aware of why the 7.62 AK-47 has such a reputation for reliability...The goddamn barrel & handguards were smoking when I was done and never once did it jam or mis-feed or anything. That was about 250 shots almost non-stop, without a SINGLE failure. I was even using the cheap Russian "WOLF" ammo just to see if it would work....IT DID, just fine. I wasn't even using the cheap ammo in the AR's They are just too fussy for me to call them reliable. I'm really considering trading both of them for a few 7.62 AK-47's. Does anyone know of an AR-15 that has the AK-47 reliability?? P.S.-My day at the range was not a total failure............... The father & son that shot my Romanian 7.62 AK were so impressed with it, they wrote down the model & caliber and are going to visit my dealer to buy one.............................My good deed for the day !!!! [:)] Guns in Question click below... [url]http://community.webtv.net/YULLOSE/artystoys[/url]
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 3:59:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 3:59:40 PM EDT
Is this the first time you have shot your ARs? Maybe, they need to be broken in a bit? Try a different brand of ammo/magazine combinations. Good luck.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:02:53 PM EDT
What brand of mags? If they are crap USA's and the like, that could account for your problem.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:15:39 PM EDT
How dare you post this Blasphemy !![:0] AR type rifles never MALF! [:p]
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:15:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord: Is this the first time you have shot your ARs? Maybe, they need to be broken in a bit? Try a different brand of ammo/magazine combinations. Good luck.
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I've shot both of them several times in the last month or so and each time it's something different...last week they both worked almost perfectly, but still both jammed a few times, Seems mostly after 3 or 4 mags. I've tried different mags & ammo and haven't found a reliable combo yet....The 7.62 AK didn't seem to mind the abuse & probably would have fired another 500 rounds without fail...So far,I would trust my life with this gun and not the AR-15's.... Anyone here ever have an AR-15 that NEVER jammed ???? ..........I don't think so Maybe I need a Korean Daewoo ??
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:20:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Crookshanks: What brand of mags? If they are crap USA's and the like, that could account for your problem.
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I'm using Orlites in the Carbon-15 and not sure what the hell I've got for the other...How do I identify them ?
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:26:57 PM EDT
I shot my AR and my AK today. Results: AR= 4 mags - 0 malfunctions AK= 4 mags - 3 malfunctions The AR is a sturdy & reliable platform. The AK is a sturdy & reliable platform. Check your AR mags. Bent feed lips or non-standard mags are at fault for 99% of AR malfunctions. Use only USGI mags or US made (not Canadian) Thermold mags. Some do well with Orlites. I've never tried them. ARs are military style weapons designed for military spec. ammo. While mine work with every kind of ammo I've fed them, yours may not. My AK malfunctions are most likely ammo related. All were failures to extract. That's why you should try your "bad times" ammo in your "bad times" weapon before "bad times" arrive. Neither an AK nor an AR is a panacea of reliability. Don't lose faith. Good luck.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:28:16 PM EDT
AFTER breakin.... Outside of my wolf 'disposal' sessions... AND newly acquired magazines being tested.... I rarely have ftf/ftc issues.... I have found ar's to be like women.... They CAN be finicky, but if you give them what they want, they will work like a dog to please daddy...
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:29:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:29:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:30:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2001 4:34:31 PM EDT by akrazy]
If they ain't USGI then your wasting your time. The Orlites from what I read here are shit in most guns. Steel USA mags are complete shit in all guns. I bought a new Colt AR a couple months ago. I have 600+ rounds downrange with zero failures using USGI and Thermold mags. As to identifing the mags, look at the base plates. It will give a company name and location of mfg. If that is not there, you have shit mags and that is why the guns are jamming. I own mulitiple AK's. My 7.62 AK's never jam. I have a 5.45 AK that is a jam-o-matic but I'm working out the kinks, I have that problem almost solved I think. I have a 2nd 5.45 AK that never jams. I shoot the cheapest russian steel case ammo, usually Wolf or Barnaul and it works great in AK's. You should have told your new friends to buy a WASR-10 because a WUM1 will be hard to find now maybe. WASR-10 are the new lot of converted rifles and they sell for $250. most places. Oh and you guys shooting the .223 SAR's in most cases are pissin' in the wind. They work with the mag that came with them, and Weiger mags I believe is the brand. Those rifles have had a multitutde of problems and the ones that work are the ones that gys have wrenched on and made work.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:31:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart:
Originally Posted By Crookshanks: What brand of mags? If they are crap USA's and the like, that could account for your problem.
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I'm using Orlites in the Carbon-15 and not sure what the hell I've got for the other...How do I identify them ?
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I've never tried the Orlites, so I can't comment on them. I use only usgi mags. They work great. These will in all liklihood be alluminum with a grey powder coat, unless you got Labelle which I think they are steel. USA (aka shit) mags I beleive are black in color and steel (never owned them either). Go look at the base plate also. It may have been swapped if you got em used, but if you bought them NIW this will probably be the best way to find out. I never bothered to waste my money on these, so I don't know for sure. BS
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:34:28 PM EDT
I also have a WUM 1 ak. in fact, i took it to the range today also. 120 rounds and not a single problem. i've had this rifle for a few years now and i've never had a problem. love the blond wood they used for the stock too. i saw a couple ar's at the range but didn't notice anyone having any problems...hope mine works good (when i finish it).
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:35:42 PM EDT
I had the same problem with used USGI mags using both brass & wolf. The brass ammo seem to do somewhat better but still jammed frequently. Bought 3 new thermolds and they cycle flawlessly through my Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:35:56 PM EDT
I have had problems with orlites in the past. I don't use them any more especially in my Olympic lower. Just my experience fwiw.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:37:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart:
Anyone here ever have an AR-15 that NEVER jammed ???? ..........I don't think so
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Well you thought WRONG? My log shows 940 rounds and NOT ONE malfution or jam on my latest AR. Nither did I ever have ANY malfunctions with 5 issued M16s. Sombody trolling from the AK side?
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:44:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:45:37 PM EDT
The "ONLY" time I have ever had a problem with a BM or Colt AR is when I used shitty mags. The STONER has never seen a shitty mag. I can use shitty Russian ammo as long as I use decent mags. I have fired 100 rounds of Wolf through a C-mag with no problem. If a mag fails once, use it for a target. IF A MAG FAILS ONCE, USE IT FOR A TARGET!
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:51:43 PM EDT
I only have 5 steel mags & 4 plastic Orlites.......The steel mags were all used when I got them and had a greenish tint to them (I painted them black to match the evil gun) I opened up all my AR mags to stretch the backs of the springs to improve feeding when I first got them. It semed to work better after doing this but didn't last very long. Info on bottom of mags: "Parsons Precision Products" from Parsons,KS.USA on 2 mags... "Center Industries corp" from Wichita,KS.USA on 1 mag... "Adventure Line Mfg.co.Inc." from Parsons,KS.USA on 1 mag "KAY Industries Inc." from New Britain,Conn.USA on 1 mag Any Idea what these are ???
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:55:53 PM EDT
Those are all USGI mags. Check for bent feed lips. And I would'nt have stretched the springs. You can buy new springs or mag rebuild kits for a couple bucks each.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 4:57:25 PM EDT
Those are all usgi manufacturers. But the mag bodies shouldn't be steel. Sounds like someone swapped out floor plates on you and sold you shit mags. Are you sure they are steel?
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:02:22 PM EDT
Try buying some brand new "in the wrap" GI mags, and several brands of ammo, take'em to the range and see what happens. Can you borrow some mags from your shooting buddies? If they function flawless through their ARs then..... If it keeps on having problems, contact the mfgr, and see if they have any suggestions.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:05:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart: I only have 5 steel mags & 4 plastic Orlites.......The steel mags were all used when I got them and had a greenish tint to them (I painted them black to match the evil gun) I opened up all my AR mags to stretch the backs of the springs to improve feeding when I first got them. It semed to work better after doing this but didn't last very long. Info on bottom of mags: "Parsons Precision Products" from Parsons,KS.USA on 2 mags... "Center Industries corp" from Wichita,KS.USA on 1 mag... "Adventure Line Mfg.co.Inc." from Parsons,KS.USA on 1 mag "KAY Industries Inc." from New Britain,Conn.USA on 1 mag Any Idea what these are ???
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All of those are reasonable magazines. two things I can think of that may help are: 1)If the failure(s) occur during the last few rounds, you may need the new style GREEN follower to correct this problem. 2) If the mags are used G.I. mags, its possible that the springs are worn causing the constant problems. You could try replacing the springs. Try ONE and see if this corrects the problem, i'm willing to bet that it does as i've had the same problem.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:05:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:08:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin N: Sombody trolling from the AK side?
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Definately not coming from the "AK" side...The AR-15 was my first love with respect to "sport utility weapons" Always wanted one & now have two...The ONLY reason I have AK-47's is 'cause I've heard so much about their reliability & wanted to see for myself....I would gladly trade the AK's if my AR's proved more reliable.....Don't get me wrong ,I'm not saying these AR's are junk...Just saying I'm having ongoing troubles with them & need some advice.... I really don't want to get rid of them, just want more reliability from them...And yes, I keep them very clean. SPOTLESS in fact. So dirt is not an issue here. Nor, are the gas rings on the bolt. I've replaced them with "McFarland" single spiral gas rings from Les Baer...
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:13:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: Those are all usgi manufacturers. But the mag bodies shouldn't be steel. Sounds like someone swapped out floor plates on you and sold you shit mags. Are you sure they are steel?
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YES, they are definately steel, I can see the sides where they are spot welded.....
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:13:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: Those are all usgi manufacturers. But the mag bodies shouldn't be steel. Sounds like someone swapped out floor plates on you and sold you shit mags. Are you sure they are steel?
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EXACTLY They should be aluminum.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:14:00 PM EDT
usgi surplus floorplates. but if the bods arent gi they are frauds. check them with a magnet if the magnet stics, sorry you were jipped.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:18:42 PM EDT
I think JIPPED is the operative word here...........steel bodies with USGI floorplates...Hmmmm??
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:29:46 PM EDT
What exactly makes the USGI mags so much better? stiffer springs? follower shape? I have no idea myself. All these mags I have, I picked out myself, from a box of about 100 or so. Just looked for the nicest ones. So they could be from planet Mars for all I know ?....My dealer has a gazillion of them, I'm sure he'd gladly swap'em out for me...
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:30:46 PM EDT
Steel is a no-no. It AK mags, but no on AR's. Also, always look for the 6 welds on the side. Also, replace the spring at least in the mag. No pully, pushy yes, no pully with the spring. Sucks to hear when someone hurts the cause. Also, clean is good, but I like a little extra CLP inside my AR15. If I am blasting that day, say 500 rds or so, lots of CLP in it or LSA oil too. Good luck, AR's are a kick ass weapon. Like the old ZEN said, "this is my rifle......... c-rock [url]www.illinois-shooter.org
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:31:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart: I think JIPPED is the operative word here...........steel bodies with USGI floorplates...Hmmmm??
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USGI mags as far as I can tell are all aluminum and a magnet will not be attracted to them. Some USA mags are aluminum. I don't no of any GI mags which are made of steel. Looking at some of my mags, there is no way I can see that the floorplate will fit something like USA mags (I have a couple I admit, both steel and aluminum ones) the construction on the ones I have look totally different from any GI mags I have and the GI floorplates would not fit without modification to the mag body. Anyone else have any USA or other junk mags they can look at to verify or disprove what I see, maybe I am wrong. I have had malfunctions with my AR's with some mags in some guns or when I put a new bolt in a gun and it took about 100 rounds to break in the bolt.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:35:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart: YES, they are definately steel, I can see the sides where they are spot welded.....
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Have you taken a magnet to them yet? The USGI mags have a spot welds on the ends, too. My own ARs run almost flawlessly. I have an occassionaly problem when I don't clean them for a couple of thousand rounds and they start getting pretty grungy. Otherwise, they run great with USGI 20 and 30 round mags as well as the Beta-C. No problems ripping through 30 rounds using the bump firing trick.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:36:31 PM EDT
All it takes for an AR to work flawlessly is good recoil springs, good magazines, decent ammo, cleaning once in awhile, a little lube, and no junk parts or screwing around inside the gun. Every problem I have ever traced in anyone's gun was due to one of these 6 things. Can't tell for sure but--in a good gun--a failure to feed is almost always a recoil spring or a bad magazine. Failure to eject could be a poor ejector or ejector spring,bad ammo, a mismatched bolt, or--rarely--a really rough chamber. There's some good suggestions from others on here. It' amazing that 3 AR's had malfunctions, and the only thing common to them is the magazines. Are these factory guns? Either way, good luck and don't give up. This can be very frustrating but it's fix-able.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:37:48 PM EDT
SORRY SORRY SORRY ....false info....the mags are definately aluminum for sure ....I just checked with a magnet. Also have 6 spot welds on each side....... Does this mean they are authentic? If so where do I get the good "green" followers + new springs ??
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:42:35 PM EDT
I've seen green followers at every gun show I've been to. Springs can be ordered from Cheaperthandirt.com, Brownells web site, Bushmaster, DPMS, Tapco has springs and followers, did I leave anyone out?
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:54:46 PM EDT
Your rifles are just plain shit.I'd be more then happy to dispose of them for you[^]
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:58:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TEXN: All it takes for an AR to work flawlessly is good recoil springs, good magazines, decent ammo, cleaning once in awhile, a little lube, and no junk parts or screwing around inside the gun. Every problem I have ever traced in anyone's gun was due to one of these 6 things. Can't tell for sure but--in a good gun--a failure to feed is almost always a recoil spring or a bad magazine. Failure to eject could be a poor ejector or ejector spring,bad ammo, a mismatched bolt, or--rarely--a really rough chamber. There's some good suggestions from others on here. It' amazing that 3 AR's had malfunctions, and the only thing common to them is the magazines. Are these factory guns? Either way, good luck and don't give up. This can be very frustrating but it's fix-able.
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The Carbon-15 is right out of the box,I've put maybe 200 or 300 rounds through it. The first 3 or 4 mags through it went perfect & I was happy as a clam but the next couple mags, (same mags/refilled) it started acting up...Don't know why, I didn't touch a thing.... On the other hand... the Olympic was bought used & could easily be a hodgepodge of mis-matched junk parts...maybe time to trade up to a new AR in a box ??? I have heard,somewhere, some of the Carbons had extraction problems...Don't remember where though ??? anybody else ??
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 5:58:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart: SORRY SORRY SORRY ....false info....the mags are definately aluminum for sure ....I just checked with a magnet. Also have 6 spot welds on each side....... Does this mean they are authentic? If so where do I get the good "green" followers + new springs ??
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Cool, that means they probably are authentic. One issue out of the way. I've never painted mags, so I can't say if this would be a problem or not. Probably not unless you really put it on there thick. My recomendation is to buy a single usgi mag NIW or in really good condition from one of the dealers on this board or better yet borrow one from a friend who has one thats working for him. That way you can compare the two and check yours for defects. Yep, now that I think about it the second option is better because finding a proven one will also tell you right away whether the probelm is your mags or your rifles. If its the mags, start with replacement floor plates, springs, and green followers ($5.00 for all three usually). Good luck.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:06:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: Those are all usgi manufacturers. But the mag bodies shouldn't be steel. Sounds like someone swapped out floor plates on you and sold you shit mags. Are you sure they are steel?
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My thoughts exactly. If they are steel your wasting your time. My suggestion is buy at least one NIW USGI mag and recheck the gun. If not talk to the Manufactuer. [sniper]
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:08:56 PM EDT
The Carbon-15 seems to get dirty fast.mine gets sluggish feeling around 200 rounds.The only thing ive shot so far is some early PMC,which seems to be pretty clean.I have 1040 thru mine without a malfunction except one very dirty orlite that wouldnt push the follower up.Your not using any lube on the carrier are you .It doesnt need any.Just a little dab on the back of the bolt lugs and then wipe most of that off.Hope this helps you with your carbon-15
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:09:24 PM EDT
Never had a jam with my issue M-16 or with my AR’s. Sounds like operator error.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:16:29 PM EDT
I'll contest a little bit on the steel mags--there are TWO kinds of steel mags that are reliable in the AR's- Sterling and FNC. All the others are garbage.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:21:20 PM EDT
And the rifles were last cleaned and oiled when???
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:22:31 PM EDT
I may have missed it, but has anyone bothered to ask exactly what kind of "jams" happened? 1. Didn't extract the fired round. 2. Didn't eject the fired round. 3. Didn't load a new round. 4. Tried to double feed. etc. One thing, I think I did not see mentioned is loading one round only (manually or from the mag), have an empty mag in the mag well after the first one is loaded and see if it A. Locks back after the one round is fired or B. if it fails to extract/eject. Once you do that, repeat with no mag in the mag well, and see if it extracts and ejects. I am wondering if by stretching the mag, it is dragging on the bolt and keeping it from loading properly. AFARR
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:36:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR: Never had a jam with my issue M-16 or with my AR’s. Sounds like operator error.
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I don't have any "issue" M-16's, nor, do I have your AR. I suppose if I did, I wouldn't have started this topic... The goddamn guns don't shoot,...period. Has nothing to do with my shooting or a lack of mechanical knowledge. Being an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic, Machinist, Certified Welder, and Electrician, I believe I am a little more mechanically inclined than the average shooter...(not to flame anybody,only my opinion) Time to trade on something better/more reliable out of the box... any suggestions ???
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:47:43 PM EDT
Carbon 15: Search the archives for this and you will find lots of people having problems with failure to extract and stovepipes. So many that a month or two ago you could find these rifles selling for about 800 instead of the 1200. I think it is a manufacturers problem. Your Oly sounds like a hodge podge of parts. Also, does that upper have a match chamber for 223 and not for 5.56? Are you shooting 5.56 in a .223 chamber in other words? Have you had this thing head spaced? Do you know that the bolt and carrier as well as the rest of the upper were purchesed together?
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:48:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart:
Originally Posted By QCMGR: Never had a jam with my issue M-16 or with my AR?s. Sounds like operator error.
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I don't have any "issue" M-16's, nor, do I have your AR. I suppose if I did, I wouldn't have started this topic... The goddamn guns don't shoot,...period. Has nothing to do with my shooting or a lack of mechanical knowledge. Being an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic, Machinist, Certified Welder, and Electrician, I believe I am a little more mechanically inclined than the average shooter...(not to flame anybody,only my opinion) Time to trade on something better/more reliable out of the box... any suggestions ???
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Bushmaster ( I have 3) or Armalite. MAYBE some Colts [check them first] Not to flame Colt or Colt owners but around here [Los Angeles] I have seen some that were junk but it may have been someone or some dealer trying to rip someone off, I don't know. In general, I find these to be better than the Oly's.
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:50:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: These will in all liklihood be alluminum with a grey powder coat, unless you got Labelle which I think they are steel.
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Labelle mags are std. USGI aluminum mags. Labelle did do run of teflon coated aluminum mags but that was not for the military. Dragracerart, don't sell the guns yet give both rifles a good cleaning and in the meantime go over to the Equip. Exchange forum and purchase one new Thermold AR mag. When you get that mag insert into your both rifles empty and work the bolts back and forth numerous times for break-in. Load that mag up and use it in each rifle on your next range visit and then let us know what happens. How rough do these mags look that you have? Do you have a USGI 20rd. mag?
Link Posted: 4/28/2001 6:57:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dragracerart:
Originally Posted By QCMGR: Never had a jam with my issue M-16 or with my AR’s. Sounds like operator error.
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I don't have any "issue" M-16's, nor, do I have your AR. I suppose if I did, I wouldn't have started this topic... The goddamn guns don't shoot,...period. Has nothing to do with my shooting or a lack of mechanical knowledge. Being an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic, Machinist, Certified Welder, and Electrician, I believe I am a little more mechanically inclined than the average shooter...(not to flame anybody,only my opinion) Time to trade on something better/more reliable out of the box... any suggestions ???
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You then should be familiar with root cause analysis. Did the rifles work before they began to fail or were they always defective? If they did work, what changed? How often do you have a press or a piece of production equipment “just stop working”? You are familiar with machines; do a fish bone diagram to identify the failure mode. I have seen a bad magazine or two in my day. But to have two rifles from two manufactures fail at the same time with the same failure mode makes me wonder what happened.
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