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Posted: 5/23/2003 5:16:02 AM EDT
I just had to get this off my chest. It has always bugged me that people who have children get tax credits and breaks for simply having produced a child. I've always thought that there should be NO tax deductions - hell, if we had a flat tax I'd be very happy about it. So, why do you think (if you do) people who have kids should have to pay less taxes? More of our tax money goes towards supporting children than a lot of things - hell, if you happen to own property you get taxed (property taxes)for public school funding even if you have no kids. People who rent DON'T pay property taxes, even if they have a dozen kids in public schools. Oh, and with the new tax cuts coming everyone who has a kid will be getting an average of $400 soon in the mail while those of us with no kids will get nothing. Grrrrrrrrrr. I'm tired of subsidizing everyone else's responsibilities.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:23:51 AM EDT
I agree completly. Me and my wife have no kids own a nice house and property and pay boatloads of taxes,and a family next to us with 12 kids and owns nothing probably pays zilch.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:26:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:28:00 AM EDT
Hell yes! I'm glad to get any tax credit I can for my kids.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:30:04 AM EDT
The previous generation paid taxes for you to go to school as a child. Now it's your turn to return the favor. Renters pay property tax indirectly. If the landlord's property tax bill goes up, the rent is likely to go up too.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:32:18 AM EDT
No. There should be no advantage for having kids. If you can't support them, don't have them. I don't really mind paying some taxes for schools even tho I have no kids. I got an education from those same taxes years ago. Even if you have no kids, some people get benefits from public schools. Example is football games on Friday. Another would be property value increase if your local school is a good one (people will buy it for the school district). Lastly, renters DO pay school taxes. It's included in the rent. The owner pays the tax & passes it on to the renter.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:39:25 AM EDT
No, I do not "deserve" a break. I have two kids both of which I decided to "create". It pisses me off that some people have kids just to remain on social programs.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:39:41 AM EDT
Thanks for the education on renters - I hadn't considered that. I stand corrected. As for previous generations paying for my schooling - nope. My parents put me through Catholic school out of their own pockets. I think that public schools should be "pay as you go" - you send kids to school, you pay tuition. Plain and simple. Now, if that were to happen, do you REALLY think the schools would be near as bad as they are now? Hell, there'd be almost 100% attendance at PTA meetings and the parents would take a keen interest in what went on at the schools because they would be writing a check every month for the tuition. The way we have things set up now (and in our income tax system) they taxes are withheld and taken surreptitiously, so people don't associate these things with the awful return for their "investments" - but hell, if you get a phone bill that is off .50 you scream bloody murder - or if you get poor service from a contractor or restaurant you refuse to pay the bill. Unfortunately, when Johnnie and Suzy can't read you demand politicians to spend "more government money" to fix the schools. Insane.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:42:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 5:44:13 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:44:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Greywolf2112: Oh, and with the new tax cuts coming everyone who has a kid will be getting an average of $400 soon in the mail while those of us with no kids will get nothing.
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WOOOHOOO. I dont deserve any special treatment for having kids, but I sure as hell could use it right now. The whole tax system is a POS. I agree with the flat tax concept.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:47:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 5:48:07 AM EDT by redray]
Garandshooter, how do u figure servicemembers get paid more when they get married?
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:52:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 5:57:05 AM EDT by Johnny_Reno]
Originally Posted By redray: Garandshooter, how do u figure servicemembers get paid more when they get married?
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The housing allowance (BAH) increases when the servicemember marries as long as it is not to another servicemember.
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: On a related note, I also feel it is bullshit that servcemembers get paid more to get married and even more to have kids.
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Servicemembers do not get an additional raise for having kids. You draw your housing allowance at one of two rates: with dependants or without. Sorry for the hijack. Back to the original intended thread.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 5:59:19 AM EDT
thanks Johnny. you beat me to the response. here's a link to military pay policies for the confused: [url]http://www.dod.mil/comptroller/fmr/07a/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:01:15 AM EDT
First, I support a flat tax as the best policy. But if anyone is going to receive tax breaks, I support the breaks for children for two reasons. (1)Our economy is dependent on growing numbers of American consumers. Why wouldn't you give a tax break to those who are producing & raising American consumers? Children drive large portions of our economy (housing, clothing, food, entertainment, transportation, etc.). (2)If we are over-taxed, it hurts those with dependents more than those who only support themselves. Taxes create more poverty among those who are raising children. No-one is better off when children are raised in government induced poverty. Back to the ideal... IF there was a flat tax, the poor would be in favor of smaller government & lower taxes. Those with children are not getting any deal, they're being manipulated & bribed by the government so that they don't cause a problem. We're all dealing with the Tax Vampire -- it is the government, not the parents, who created this problem Richardson
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:01:23 AM EDT
As a father of 2 I would agree. Let me tell you, the tax deductions was not the reason I had children. Ha, I have a daughter trying to get into U of M and a son 2 years behind her. I'm going to have to hide some stuff if I want to keep it. I see lots of Raman dinners ahead. I don't believe this is the answer but for a lot of derelicts out there who bread nothing but hell spawn, the public school system is their childrens only hope at breaking the cycle.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:14:50 AM EDT
All taxes are too high. I'm not going to complain about anyone getting a tax cut, unless that group isn't paying taxes to begin with. BTW - Greywolf, tax cuts aren't subsidies. They are simply letting folks keep more of their money. Besides, there are other tax cuts as part of the deal that you will benefit from (I suspect).
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:18:41 AM EDT
As a responsible father of one with another on the way I have no qualms about taking the breaks if i can. How is it different than someone taking a break cause they lost money in the stock market? I can call that government supported gambling. What about being able to write off medical expenses? Go look up the average cost of bring up a child now....hell yes I will take all the tax breaks I am entitled too. Just because you don't have kids don't trash on those of who do. That is like trashing on gun owners cause some jerk off commits a crime with an illegal firearm. I certainly did not create my children for financial benifits, rather the intangible benifits.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:21:05 AM EDT
Not only no but----HELL NO. It's not my responsibility to support your child. I don't have any children and my wife and I pay taxes out the ying-yang. If you cant afford them than keep your damn legs closed.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:23:29 AM EDT
I spend an extra $10K every year due to my kids. How is a tax break saving me monmey again?? Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:23:50 AM EDT
Actually, other than the reduction in rates (2%) that ALL of us (including parents) get, I won't get shit from the tax cut. I am married, no children, with an inexpensive home - I do not have enough deductions to qualify for itemizing, so I get screwed and have to take standard deductions. Sorry for the implication on subsidies - I didn't mean to imply that. I do realize that getting money back is simply being able to keep more of our income. I just wish we all had to write a monthly check for our taxes - I'm sure there would be a LOT more accountability from our government if we saw a monthly reminder of our taxes.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:24:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 6:26:01 AM EDT by Green_Canoe]
I think it's nice the government is going to let me keep $400 more of my money. It's going directly into the college fund. That way, my kids can go to college get a good job and pay more in taxes than I ever saved. Think of it as an government investment that starts to pay off in about 22 years. Kent
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:29:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TimJ: Our tax system isn't fair anyway.
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That's about the size of it. While I can certainly understand GreyWolf's position, and find it hard to argue with, I must acknowledge being glad to be able to put my two kids down. Glad because I pay less in taxes, but not really satisfied with the mechanism. I imagine GreyWolf would agreee with me in being pissed off that we have to pay school taxes when we have no kids or when our kids go to private school. I wish thay'd just pass a flat, across-the-board, minimum-writeoffs tax system. Imagine filling out your tax return on the back of a postcard! Too bad, though. The CPA lobby will never allow that to happen. [:(]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:30:38 AM EDT
Well, I think that ALL tax deductions are a crock. Everyone should pay the same percentage of their income in taxes as their neighbor. No deductions for mortgage interest, gamlbing losses, stock market losses, education, kids, etc. Sigh - I'm just bitching - I don't think anything will ever be done about it. Sorry it costs so much to raise kids, but as someone else said - it is YOUR responsibility to provide for them, not MINE!
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:34:20 AM EDT
I think you guys are missing the point. I have a daughter and both me and my wife work. We still have to pay taxes at the end of the year, cannot qualify for any breaks like a reduction in day care, etc. etc. While there are some women my wife works with that has kids and no husband, gets free daycare and about $4000 back every year. So you guys are not paying for my child, you are paying for theirs. Me and my wife are actually being punished because we are married, both work and can afford to take care of our own child. Pisses me off to no end when I have to pay money to the IRS but the lazy ghetto, no husband having b!tches have god knows how many kids and gets a fat a$$ tax return when they really didn't put in any to begin with. DAMN!!! JBritt
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:40:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Greywolf2112: Well, I think that ALL tax deductions are a crock. Everyone should pay the same percentage of their income in taxes as their neighbor. No deductions for mortgage interest, gamlbing losses, stock market losses, education, kids, etc. Sigh - I'm just bitching - I don't think anything will ever be done about it. Sorry it costs so much to raise kids, but as someone else said - it is YOUR responsibility to provide for them, not MINE!
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I agree, but I didn't ask for the tax break. I planned my finaces around not having the tax break. I am very happy the gov. is letting me keep more of my money no matter what the reason. Now your task is to lobby for a per gun tax break in the name of "Homeland Security". I'd jump on the band wagon if you get the ball rolling. Kent
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:44:18 AM EDT
People with children spend MUCH more money into the economy buying more food, more clothing, more services. They need bigger homes, so buy more property and pay more property taxes. Their kids get toys, (lots and lots of toys these days), when those kids get older, they get jobs and pay more taxes. Then they get old enough to go to college and parents pay HUGE amounts of money into that system. Now tell me again how I am freeloading when I get to claim a few thousand dollars less taxable income because I have kids? My wife and I need to work enough that it puts us into a higher tax bracket so we can afford the kids in the first case, the tax breaks put us back where we belong...maybe. And we are still paying more taxes than the rest of y'all in sales taxes, service taxes and the rest. It's simplistic thinking like equating deductions with some kind of giveback, that allows the Democrats to tax the shit out of us. I agree that a flat tax system would be a lot more fair, so would a slimmer, trimmer government. We aren't likely to see either of those two ideals come about.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:52:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:59:08 AM EDT
So if I shouldn't be able to get a tax break for my kids does that mean you shouldn't be able to deduct your house payment? Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:05:00 AM EDT
Here in Utah the tax break for children is unbelievable. First they get that Federal Tax break and then they get the State Tax break. All the while they complain how their is not enough money to fund the Education Systems and extracurricular activities. Then they want to tax those that don't even have kids to pickup the difference in the Fiscal shortfall for Education and the Extracurricular activities. [soapbox] I believe if you get the Federal break then you don't need a State break as well. It was your choice to have 7 kids because of your religious beliefs. Don't make the rest of society pick up the tab to educate your kids if you are not willing to participate in the process your self. I also agree that a Flat Tax is the best solution. Face it if you get nothing you pay nothing and if you get something you will pay something, then the Government [slap] will know every year what their budget would be and then they could setup spending accordingly. Thanks more then my two cents, may be more like a dime but it was well spent. [banghead]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:05:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: So if I shouldn't be able to get a tax break for my kids does that mean you shouldn't be able to deduct your house payment? Sgtar15
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Yes - I don't think there should be ANY tax deductions or credits. But that's just me.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:07:46 AM EDT
You know what REALLY sucks ass? There are MILLIONS of people out there right now who end up not only NOT paying any taxes at the end of the year, but they actually get money! The Earned Income Tax Credit, in addition to child tax credits, will basically increase their income - they pay no taxes, and end up getting a check (from your taxes). Simply insane.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:13:34 AM EDT
America was founded on the principal that everyone was created equal, now according to the Liberals in this country, if you have something and someone else has nothing. Liberals have the right to take it from you and give them half of what you have so that way everyone would be equal. But if you ask them to do equal share of work they get pissed off and tell you that they are being unreasonable and you should be happy to give to those who are less fortunate.... sorry I meant those who are lazy.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:15:31 AM EDT
The only tax break anyone should get, is when it's time to send them to school. College tuition should be deductable. My friend is paying almost $30,000 a year to send his kid to the University of Dayton. That's almost 1/3rd of his yearly income. That's insane.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:43:57 AM EDT
Deserve? Since when does the US Tzx Code account for who "deserves" something? If the tax laws were written by single, Aramaic-speaking, left-handed, green-eyed, curly-haired people with hangnails, there would be tax credits for those attributes. The fact of the matter is that the tax code is written, largely, by married college graduate homeowners with children. Want the tax code changed? Start electing bachelors with no children, like Barney Frank. Then you'll be subject to his perversions. So what tax break that YOU get are YOU giving back, anyway?
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:48:09 AM EDT
[b]Do people with children deserve tax breaks for them?[/b] No
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 7:57:48 AM EDT
At the very least... When you see a young mother with pushing a baby in a stoller, a two year old on her hip, and a diaper bag slung over her shoulder... SHE needs to be allowed to park in the blue Handicapped zones. If that is not handicapped, I don't know what is.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:25:55 AM EDT
To a point... Like to when the kids are 18... What really bugs me is that my parents got a tax break for me going to college, without contributing a dime to my tuition. All that tax-code crap that's supposed to make it easier to go to school... I never saw a dime... If I had decided to live at school (10min away from home) I would have gotten some of it, but that wouldn't have helped, as the costs of living at school were more than the tax breaks... If they want to 'help college students', maybe they should give the tax breaks to the students instead of parents...
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:50:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 2:31:43 PM EDT by Kaesan]
I support tax cuts on general principle. While it would be nice to have a flat tax, NST, or subscription based revenue plan, reducing the taxpayers burden now is critical. Most of the families with children who will benefit from the credits are net contributors, not deadbeats. The real problem with subsidies for children comes in the form of property taxes used to fund government schools. Parents should be solely responsible for providing an education to their offspring. The real benefits of the recently passed package are the reduction in dividend and capital gains tax rates. It is likely that both will be eliminated entirely in future legislation. The lowering of the rate tiers is also useful in weakening the concept of progressive taxation. The congress critters didn't get to put any special interest cuts in this package, but look for amendments to other bills in the next few weeks.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:54:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A: To a point... Like to when the kids are 18... What really bugs me is that my parents got a tax break for me going to college, without contributing a dime to my tuition. All that tax-code crap that's supposed to make it easier to go to school... I never saw a dime... If I had decided to live at school (10min away from home) I would have gotten some of it, but that wouldn't have helped, as the costs of living at school were more than the tax breaks... If they want to 'help college students', maybe they should give the tax breaks to the students instead of parents...
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Give me a break.... You said it, you benefited from living at home, and passed up the opportunity to make it on your own and get the tax break. Did they make you attend college? You could have taken the tax break & let the IRS go after your parents... but that would have meant you had to support yourself. For the lack of gratitude toward your parents, you deserve nothing... Richardson
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:56:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 11:37:06 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:59:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ark-and-spark: Not only no but----HELL NO. It's not my responsibility to support your child. I don't have any children and my wife and I pay taxes out the ying-yang. If you cant afford them than keep your damn legs closed.
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First, Only a small fraction of your taxes go to education. Second, you're not supporting [b]my[/b] child, you're supporting public education. My child may be home-schooled, attend a private school, or we may choose to the lower standard of public education. If you don't like it, then vote for the candidate which pledges to eradicate public education. Or, if you REALLY don't like it, move. Richardson
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:06:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Richardson:
Originally Posted By ark-and-spark: Not only no but----HELL NO. It's not my responsibility to support your child. I don't have any children and my wife and I pay taxes out the ying-yang. If you cant afford them than keep your damn legs closed.
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First, Only a small fraction of your taxes go to education. Second, you're not supporting [b]my[/b] child, you're supporting public education. My child may be home-schooled, attend a private school, or we may choose to the lower standard of public education. If you don't like it, then vote for the candidate which pledges to eradicate public education. Or, if you REALLY don't like it, move. Richardson
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Richardson I would have no problem paying to have those that are home schooled compensated with they way education is going today it would be in my best interest to support the parents that care about their child's education. I know they would be much harder on their children then the public education system is today. May your kids grow to become all that they desire to achieve I commend you and your wife on the time and effort you are putting towards teaching your children.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:29:49 AM EDT
You will probably feel different once you have kids! But I think it is a good government policy to provide a tax break for children. We want people who earn incomes (especially good incomes!) to raise kids. This is why Europe is dying--high taxes on Europeans and they are not having any children. Economists have found all sorts of proof that lower taxes result in people having more children. What we need to do is encourage people who are already leeches from having kids while encouraging producers to have more kids. GunLvr
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:33:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By icemanat95: People with children spend MUCH more money into the economy buying more food, more clothing, more services. They need bigger homes, so buy more property and pay more property taxes. Their kids get toys, (lots and lots of toys these days), when those kids get older, they get jobs and pay more taxes. Then they get old enough to go to college and parents pay HUGE amounts of money into that system. Now tell me again how I am freeloading when I get to claim a few thousand dollars less taxable income because I have kids? My wife and I need to work enough that it puts us into a higher tax bracket so we can afford the kids in the first case, the tax breaks put us back where we belong...maybe. And we are still paying more taxes than the rest of y'all in sales taxes, service taxes and the rest. It's simplistic thinking like equating deductions with some kind of giveback, that allows the Democrats to tax the shit out of us. I agree that a flat tax system would be a lot more fair, so would a slimmer, trimmer government. We aren't likely to see either of those two ideals come about.
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I agree with you completely, [b]icemanat95[/b]. My kids cost me way more than I will ever get in a tax credit, and I still wind up giving Uncle Sugar a healthy chunk of my paycheck, so you guys with your "freeloading welfare case" complaints can pretty much kiss my ass. I would like to see a better tax system with lower rates for everyone, but until that happens, you can bet your ass that I will take every legal tax deduction that I can, and anyone who doesn't is simply an idiot.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:34:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JBritt: I think you guys are missing the point. I have a daughter and both me and my wife work. We still have to pay taxes at the end of the year, cannot qualify for any breaks like a reduction in day care, etc. etc. While there are some women my wife works with that has kids and no husband, gets free daycare and about $4000 back every year. So you guys are not paying for my child, you are paying for theirs. Me and my wife are actually being punished because we are married, both work and can afford to take care of our own child. Pisses me off to no end when I have to pay money to the IRS but the lazy ghetto, no husband having b!tches have god knows how many kids and gets a fat a$$ tax return when they really didn't put in any to begin with. DAMN!!! JBritt
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Where does the free daycare come from? BTW the amount of money you get "back" isn't a good indicator of how much you pay in. BTW I'll bet I pay more in taxes than a lot of people gross in a year. WOO HOO I get $400 off for having a kid. How about we make it fair and I get something like $30,000 off so I can pay as much as most other people [:)] I would go for that!
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:43:15 AM EDT
Tax break??? It was my money in the first place...[:|]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:45:01 AM EDT
Socialism is what it is all about. I pay school taxes. I have no kids. Why should I pay the school tax for my neighbors kids? Now, if a tax is paid, by whoever, they should get to deduct that otherwise it is a tax on a tax.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:55:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By icemanat95: People with children spend MUCH more money into the economy buying more food, more clothing, more services. They need bigger homes, so buy more property and pay more property taxes. Their kids get toys, (lots and lots of toys these days), when those kids get older, they get jobs and pay more taxes. Then they get old enough to go to college and parents pay HUGE amounts of money into that system. Now tell me again how I am freeloading when I get to claim a few thousand dollars less taxable income because I have kids? My wife and I need to work enough that it puts us into a higher tax bracket so we can afford the kids in the first case, the tax breaks put us back where we belong...maybe. And we are still paying more taxes than the rest of y'all in sales taxes, service taxes and the rest. It's simplistic thinking like equating deductions with some kind of giveback, that allows the Democrats to tax the shit out of us. I agree that a flat tax system would be a lot more fair, so would a slimmer, trimmer government. We aren't likely to see either of those two ideals come about.
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Agree on all points. However, I would also support a flat tax. I would support no more than 10% tax for everything - Fed, State, Local etc etc. Govt. needs no more than 10% of anyone's income. They should learn to live within that.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:56:35 AM EDT
If the government is going to forbid my children from getting a job, then the least they could do is give us a tax credit for it. I support tax cuts on general principle. Tax credits for anything and everything would be fine with me. No sense complicating anything more though. Flat-Rate tax would be fine with me.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 9:57:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: Agree on all points. However, I would also support a flat tax. I would support no more than 10% tax for everything - Fed, State, Local etc etc. Govt. needs no more than 10% of anyone's income. They should learn to live within that.
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Wow, that's pretty conservative for a DU troll! [;D]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:02:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 10:06:33 AM EDT by Greywolf2112]
[/quote] "Just an obsersvation, some of your comments ring of make the people better off pay my way or we should tax the rich more. This is DU thinking." [/quote] TJ - I don't know if I understand what you are saying here - are you implying that I am in favor of making the rich support the poor? I am advocating nothing of the sort :)
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