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Posted: 5/18/2003 10:03:55 AM EDT
I have heard that it is now US law that any cell phone manufactured after a certain date must have the ability to be located through some sort of triangulation. Naturally, this is for our own safety, like for instance if you have to call 911 and you don't know where you are, "they" can find you. Does anyone know more details about this? When does this go into effect? And how will the cell phones act as personal tracking devices? Will they be more easily triangulated from the signals hitting various cell phone towers, or will the phones have a GPS-like device in them that then reports your location to the cell phone tower? I'm guessing that to really make this effective, you'd need a GPS-like device, since supposing your out in the boonies and you can only hit one cell phone tower, that makes it more difficult to pinpoint a location. Really, you'd need to be able to hit two, three or more towers with your cell phone signal to be effectively triangulated. There are also times when I'm driving through rural areas in the mountains and I can't hit a single cell tower, so again, it looks like if the feds want to do this right and keep track of all their [s]cattle[/s], er, citizens, that we would need a GPS unit built into the cell phone. Thoughts? Links? Ideas? -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:20:50 AM EDT
Most cell phones try and find the closest cell tower to get service from. Occasionally, there's more than one. They can track which towers you are using to call from. Nothing too scary.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:38:19 AM EDT
well, actually, they do track, it's for your safety. Don't worry, if you haven't done anything wrong, big brother won't use it. TXL
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:47:38 AM EDT
OK boys, take your TIN FOIL hats off and listen up... There is a GPS transceiver in ALL new cell phones that is only activated when you dial 911. You can choose to activate it full time for other reasons, however normally it is off unless you dial 911. A cell phone company can usually track your whereabouts with in 30m by triangulation without the GPS activated, so trust me, if you're worried about it, dont use a cell phone. OTOH, the GPS works well! I recently called 911 for an accident I saw happen on the freeway. The 911 operator asked for my name and then said "and your number is 206-795-****" I said yes, then said that my GPS must be working. She said "Yes, you are traveling west bound on Michigan St, crossing 4th Ave S" which was my exact location.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:52:40 AM EDT
Got a surprise for you, the newer digital phones have GPS built in. I have a Motorola 120 and it has GPS. This can be turned off on a limited basis in that you can set it where it will only transmit location when on an emergency call (911, *847 [tennessee highway patrol], *KSP [Kentuck state police] for example) The purpose is to track a cell phone during a crime or accident. If your wife gets kidnapped and stuffed in a trunk etc... The problem is that it tends to be known by too many criminals due to showing it in TV shows. Fortunately, turning off the phone doesn't stop this. The only way to totally disable this feature is to remove the battery. My employers daughters' phone was stolen and the police wouldn't do anything about it though. I mentioned the tracking system to her and she said that the police refused to do anything because it was not a felony theft. They called the number and the punk that stole it wanted their password so he could recieve messages on his phone. You believe the gall? Anyway, based on the cops refusal to track the stolen phone (or even give my boss the location) I don't think we currently have to worry about big brother.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:53:27 AM EDT
I thought cell phones constantly looked for a connection while turned on. You know sometimes while driving it will beep indicating an out service area status. waterdog
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:55:01 AM EDT
I think that anytime your phone is on and getting signal it's being logged in the system. Keeping track of towers, sectors, receive strength and such. CHRIS
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:56:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil: Most cell phones try and find the closest cell tower to get service from. Occasionally, there's more than one. They can track which towers you are using to call from. Nothing too scary.
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no, no, I heard a blurb on this. It's a requirement that every new cellphone have the capability to be ground traced through GPS. Don't know if it's law yet though...
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:36:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 11:37:13 AM EDT by Johnny_Reno]
Originally Posted By N_Viejo: ...so again, it looks like if the feds want to do this right and keep track of all their [s]cattle[/s], er, citizens, that we would need a GPS unit built into the cell phone. -Nick Viejo.
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Why in the world would you think the Feds would want to keep track of every citizen? Agent Jones: Yes sir, we have Nick Viejo at the corner 7-11. Should we take him down? Agent Smith: Negative, from our extensive database, we know he likes Cherry Slurpees. Agent Jones: Roger, we now have him in the basement at his house. Should we take him down? Agent Smith: Negative, he has an extensive porn collection. He'll be down there for about an hour. Agent Jones: Roger. Continuing to monitor.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:51:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:54:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 12:03:44 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:57:46 AM EDT
I'm capable of talking on my cell phone while on my way to The Girly Kitty Bang Bang Club. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 12:03:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: A good buddy of mine maintains the counties 911 and dispatch systems and all the public safety radios, and I got the skinny on this from him. First, your county or city 911 center must be set up with the proper hardware, and the local cell providers must be also. The county here actually upgraded about a year ago, but the first cell service provider just came online with the service last month. The data from the GPS is only sent when you dial an emergency number, and even then (at least how it is set up here) it will only show the tower location until the dispatcher/call taker actually polls the phone and asks it where it is located. Unless someone dials an emergency number (with most phones only 911 activates the feature) the data is not sent and this feature cannot be turned on by remote control to track a phone. It can not be used to track a stolen phone, and is only on for as long as that call is connected. We already had a family of lost hikers found a week after the county went online using this feature.
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This is a more extensive version of what I said earlier and this is correct. I work for Verizon Wireless and I was thoroughly trained on this subject in order to answer the MANY phonecalls I get to explain exactly how it works.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 12:06:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 12:15:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 3:22:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 3:23:38 PM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 3:33:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Originally Posted By N_Viejo: ...so again, it looks like if the feds want to do this right and keep track of all their [s]cattle[/s], er, citizens, that we would need a GPS unit built into the cell phone. -Nick Viejo.
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Why in the world would you think the Feds would want to keep track of every citizen?
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I dunno Johnny. Why do we have a social security number? I know, I know, social security numbers are supposedly optional, but have you tried getting a job, driver's license or license of any type, claim your dependants as a tax deduction or myriad other things without using the universal identifier? I have no doubt that as soon as the technology is there, the fed gov with assemble a superdatabase and put all our information together. Bank accounts, driving and criminal records, the types of licenses you have, all available at the touch of a button and it's all tied in to your SSN.
Agent Jones: Yes sir, we have Nick Viejo at the corner 7-11. Should we take him down? Agent Smith: Negative, from our extensive database, we know he likes Cherry Slurpees. Agent Jones: Roger, we now have him in the basement at his house. Should we take him down? Agent Smith: Negative, [red]he has an extensive porn collection.[/red] He'll be down there for about an hour. Agent Jones: Roger. Continuing to monitor.
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And the other thing I want to know Johnny, is do [b]you[/b] work for the feds? I don't know how you could have known about my porn collection unless you're one of those people riding along in the black helicopters spying on me with the thermal imaging technology. [;)] -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:08:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 4:09:32 PM EDT by Johnny_Reno]
Originally Posted By N_Viejo:
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Originally Posted By N_Viejo: ...so again, it looks like if the feds want to do this right and keep track of all their [s]cattle[/s], er, citizens, that we would need a GPS unit built into the cell phone. -Nick Viejo.
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Why in the world would you think the Feds would want to keep track of every citizen?
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I dunno Johnny. Why do we have a social security number? I know, I know, social security numbers are supposedly optional, but have you tried getting a job, driver's license or license of any type, claim your dependants as a tax deduction or myriad other things without using the universal identifier? I have no doubt that as soon as the technology is there, the fed gov with assemble a superdatabase and put all our information together. Bank accounts, driving and criminal records, the types of licenses you have, all available at the touch of a button and it's all tied in to your SSN.
Agent Jones: Yes sir, we have Nick Viejo at the corner 7-11. Should we take him down? Agent Smith: Negative, from our extensive database, we know he likes Cherry Slurpees. Agent Jones: Roger, we now have him in the basement at his house. Should we take him down? Agent Smith: Negative, [red]he has an extensive porn collection.[/red] He'll be down there for about an hour. Agent Jones: Roger. Continuing to monitor.
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And the other thing I want to know Johnny, is do [b]you[/b] work for the feds? I don't know how you could have known about my porn collection unless you're one of those people riding along in the black helicopters spying on me with the thermal imaging technology. [;)] -Nick Viejo.
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I'm the guy that works at the 7-11. I've seen what you buy and it is [b]quite[/b] extensive.[naughty]
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:09:03 PM EDT
Outside the US a cell phone known to belong to a certain bad guy is often used as a target indicator. Plenty of Al-Q's, hangers-on, etc, have painted themselves. Do I thinkthe MIB are going to send a Tommohawk my way because I have a telescoping stock on my pre-ban? No. Not right now. And if TSHTF I doubt Cell service will be on for very long.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:32:30 PM EDT
They have been able to triangulate your position ever since they had 3 cell towers that were in your range. However as already stated cell phones now have GPS built in. I know mine does. It is set for 911 only. I think it is a rather nice feature if I am on say the NYS thruway I don't know excatly where I am and I am in an accident or witness one. I can call for help and once the 911 centers are capable they will know where I am when calling them. It can be a great feature that could be abused, however I do not partake in any activities that IMNSHO would make me a target. I also treat all non face to face conversation as say a mobster would.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:58:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 5:00:45 PM EDT by Tonys68l36]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: A good buddy of mine maintains the counties 911 and dispatch systems and all the public safety radios, and I got the skinny on this from him. First, your county or city 911 center must be set up with the proper hardware, and the local cell providers must be also. The county here actually upgraded about a year ago, but the first cell service provider just came online with the service last month. The data from the gps is only sent when you dial an emergency numbre, and even then (at least how it is set up here) it will only show the tower location until the dispatcher/call taker actually polls the phone and asks it where it is located. Unless someone dials an emergency number (with most phones only 911 activates the feature) the data is not sent and this feature cannot be turned on by remote control to track a phone. It can not be used to track a stolen phone, and is only on for as long as that call is connected. We already had a family of lost hikers found a week after the county went online using this feature. From being a firefigter in a VFD with a portion of I-40 in its district, I think this will help greatly in many cases. You would nto believe the number of people that dial 911 to report an accident and have no idea of where they are when they call. Way too many times callers give the wrong location and we end up going the wrong way when we get on, forcing us to go down to the next exit, turn around, go past the one we got on at and then sometimes trun around at the next exit and come back if the incident is in the opposite lane, basicly taking a 2 mile response and making it a 6-9 mile trip to get there. When this is finally fully online hopefully we can eliminate alot of that.
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Making the 911 call is not the only way to activate the "tracking". Wait till the LBS(location based services) ads start hitting phones. Drive past a McDonalds and get a text message about the 2 burgers for 99 cents they are running. This was set-up to cover the $$$ the carriers had to spend to be 911 compliant. They figure they may as well make some money out of it...
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:30:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Wait till the LBS(location based services) ads start hitting phones. Drive past a McDonalds and get a text message about the 2 burgers for 99 cents they are running. This was set-up to cover the $$$ the carriers had to spend to be 911 compliant. They figure they may as well make some money out of it...
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Not only is this illegal (for cell phones, because you get charged for receiving text messages), even if it wern't, Verizon Wireless would never do this. Every other cell phone company sells your info to marketing companies, except Verizon Wireless. Trust me, Verizon Wireless has better ways to make money. We spent 4 Billion last year just upgrading our network. Just so you know, thats more than most companies grossed last year.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:49:35 PM EDT
Thanks to you folks for explaining the details of cell phone tracking. I was under the impression that the GPS units would be operational any time the cell phone was on. Now I know it only works when you dial 911. That's not so bad after all. And as for triangulation, there's nothing new about that. I was aware that any device which emits a radio signal can be triangulated, provided you have a few receiving stations in range. In fact, that's how the FBI caught that kid who was putting pipe bombs in mailboxes around Texas and Oklahoma about a year back--they triangulated his ass from his cell phone. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:13:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: First, your county or city 911 center must be set up with the proper hardware, and the local cell providers must be also. The county here actually upgraded about a year ago, but the first cell service provider just came online with the service last month. The data from the gps is only sent when you dial an emergency numbre, and even then (at least how it is set up here) it will only show the tower location until the dispatcher/call taker actually polls the phone and asks it where it is located. Unless someone dials an emergency number (with most phones only 911 activates the feature) the data is not sent and this feature cannot be turned on by remote control to track a phone. It can not be used to track a stolen phone, and is only on for as long as that call is connected. We already had a family of lost hikers found a week after the county went online using this feature. From being a firefigter in a VFD with a portion of I-40 in its district, I think this will help greatly in many cases. You would nto believe the number of people that dial 911 to report an accident and have no idea of where they are when they call. Way too many times callers give the wrong location and we end up going the wrong way when we get on, forcing us to go down to the next exit, turn around, go past the one we got on at and then sometimes trun around at the next exit and come back if the incident is in the opposite lane, basicly taking a 2 mile response and making it a 6-9 mile trip to get there. When this is finally fully online hopefully we can eliminate alot of that.
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GarandShooter got it right. Most E911 centers nationwide do not have the hardware in place yet to track cell calls. His county, which is about 50 miles from me, is one of the first in our area to be set up this way. We get cell calls from a radius of more than 40 miles around, because most of the cell towers in our area are located on top of a 3300 ft. mountain, and they pick up roaming calls from a long way off. You would be amazed at the number of calls we get about wrecks, drunk drivers, etc. from people who don't have a clue where they are, what highway they are on, what direction they are going, or even if they are in NC or SC. With 15 miles of Interstate and about 10 miles of 4-lane limited access highway in the county, we often have to waste a lot of time hunting for the wrecks because no one can give us a good location. The cell phone companies have fought this requirement for the last 5-6 years, claiming that it would make cell phones too expensive and would hurt business. Now the problem is that the technology can be put into the phones, but most counties don't have the money to afford the equipment to locate the phones. It either requires triangulation from 2 or more locations, or GPS identification, both of which require a lot of hardware and equipment.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:30:08 AM EDT
The new phone I bought Saturday has this feature, I set it for continous. We've already had several emergency calls in the Greenbelts located just this way. Get a good GPS number and we can put a Starflight helicopter over you in just a couple of minutes. Since I go into those greenbelts on an almost daily basis looking for various breeds of idiot, It's a good thing. if the govt wants to track me thru it, they are going to be mighty bored.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:51:32 AM EDT
Oh my God! I just found out, that when you make a call from the landline in your house, that they know where you are, too...
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:30:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Oh my God! I just found out, that when you make a call from the landline in your house, that they know where you are, too...
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Not me. I hide my phone under my bed. You gotta think ahead in circumstances like this.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:26:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Oh my God! I just found out, that when you make a call from the landline in your house, that they know where you are, too...
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Damn! I was afraid of that...[shock]
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:40:08 AM EDT
If you are worried about the government knowing too much about you, stop worrying about that and start worrying about something more modern -- like getting run over by a T-Rex. You don't have any privacy. No one but the oldest of us now living ever did. Privacy was extent long ago and is now only a mythical beast that people get worried about. Does anyone remember the Pueblo incident off of Korea in 1968? That's where the North Koreans captured a US spy ship in international waters. Do you have any idea what it was doing? It was listening to phone conversations carried over wires 45 miles inland -- from international waters. Of course, that was in 1968 before we had really advanced technology like hand calculators and digital watches. Today, you can trot down to a good electronics store and, for costs of about what you spend on a good weapon, you can assemble some tools that will allow you to listen to absolutely everything that goes on in the privacy of your neighbor's home without their knowledge at all. Your entire life is on public record -- including damn near everything you have ever bought and every place you have gone -- through real estate and DMV records, credit card purchases, magazines you subscribe to, mailing lists you are on, etc., etc. If you think anything about you is private, you are just deluding yourself. A few years ago a local TV station did a thing where they stopped people coming out of a supermarket and asked them if they wanted to participate in a news show on privacy. They didn't ask them anything else at all -- not even their names. A couple of weeks later, they went to the peoples' houses, sat the family down and proceeded to give the most intimate details about the family, right down to everyone's names, dates of birth, educational and job history, favorite foods, and even their favorite colors. They did all that from freely available commercial and public records -- and that was before the internet made that kind of thing easy. The only reason you have any privacy at all is because your life is just too boring for anyone to be interested enough to go to the trouble to track you. GPS in cell phones? Stop worrying.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:29:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 6:47:14 PM EDT by Tonys68l36]
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Wait till the LBS(location based services) ads start hitting phones. Drive past a McDonalds and get a text message about the 2 burgers for 99 cents they are running. This was set-up to cover the $$$ the carriers had to spend to be 911 compliant. They figure they may as well make some money out of it...
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Not only is this illegal (for cell phones, because you get charged for receiving text messages), even if it wern't, Verizon Wireless would never do this. Every other cell phone company sells your info to marketing companies, except Verizon Wireless. Trust me, Verizon Wireless has better ways to make money. We spent 4 Billion last year just upgrading our network. Just so you know, thats more than most companies grossed last year.
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Funny I'm a market manager in one of the largest wireless markets in the US. I get sent to the C.E.S. and C.T.I.A. shows every year to make sure I'm up to date on these subjects. So can you tell me a little about LBS...Location Based Services hummm...by name alone it should tell you what it does...Why invest in the technology if it doesn't make $$$$. Remember EVERYTHING is done to increase revenue. Here's something from one of the many reports that I read months ago... "Location-based services use the same location-sensitive technology, such as GPS or network-based solutions, as E911 does to deliver services or applications to a wireless device such as a mobile phone. These services can include finder applications that let mobile phone users locate friends or family, businesses or landmarks. They also can deliver maps, directions or traffic reports. While location-based services are perceived as useful, users note that the Big Brother phenomenon might inhibit them from using other location-based services that are enabled by the technology in the future." Somewhere else in the report.... "In-Stat/MDR believes that location-enabled services have the potential to drive revenue, on a global basis, of more than $167 million by 2006. The revenue from these services will help carriers offset the cost of location-enabling their networks somewhat, and also will succeed in driving data usage in a time of falling revenue for wireless voice services. It is unknown, at this point, how long it will take carriers to recoup investments in licenses and infrastructure, based on these modest estimates for location-based services."
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:48:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Funny I'm a market manager in one of the largest wireless markets in the US. I get sent to the C.E.S. and C.T.I.A. shows every year to make sure I'm up to date on these subjects. So can you tell me a little about LBS...Location Based Services hummm...by name alone it should tell you what it does...Why invest in the technology if it doesn't make $$$$. Remember EVERYTHING is done to increase revenue.
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Ok, I didnt say that LBS wouldnt make money, I said VZW isn't going to piss off it's customers like that. Take some Prozac and chill.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:25:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 7:25:58 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
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