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Posted: 5/17/2003 7:10:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:21:51 AM EDT
In theory, everyone is free and equal, and the goverment only does everything BEST for the people. In reality, corruption destroys the idea, and there's no checks and balances in place.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:22:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Are they just assholes with a grudge who figure that succeeding in the present environment would just take far too much work
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YES!!! In their view it's not fair that others have more than they do. Just because someone get's a higher education, works 60 hours a week, and breaks there back just to get ahead doesn't mean they should end up with more. And if you are a successful business owner, then you have more money than you know what to do with, so you should spread that around to everyone who doesn't have as much. That's their thinking...and that thinking is what is keeping them from succeding. I can sort of sympathize with this just a little. After loosing my job and being unemployed for several months, I started to like not having to go into work or any other type of responsiblity. Even though I didn't have any extra money, I enjoyed life more because that is the only thing I had to do. What the people don't realize is that if they really got what they want, they wouldn't be getting what they currently have. They would have more responsiblity, more work, and a lot less freedom.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:24:13 AM EDT
Under both socialism and communism everyone is more equal. Of course those at the top are just a little more equal !! In the Soviet Union, those who were just a little more equal had special traffic lanes for their cars ONLY !! Now I do believe the attraction of both the above ideologies for some adherents is due to things like socialized medicine and education -basically free. Of course 'free' comes with the loss of some freedoms. In Castro's Cuba you're chosen to be let's say be a reporter and sent to school for that career. The government chooses - not the individual.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:38:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 7:40:52 AM EDT by DigDug]
Money for nothing and the chicks are free. SWIRE: I find that woman in your avatar to be extremely annoying.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:12:39 AM EDT
And if you are a successful business owner, then you have more money than you know what to do with
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I've seen a lot of that believe at DUh. I still can't figure-out where it comes from. I work with many small businesses, and I've never seen one that "had more money than they knew what to do with." Most had to struggle to meet payroll each week. There are a lot of small businesses in this country and only a very small fraction end-up large enough to public.z
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:21:11 AM EDT
I've noticed tht the advocates are either the ones in charge of the socialistic government, of competely not affected by others running socialistic governments. (IE, the commies in our country). Generally they are too stupid to realize that under our gov't they can say what they want about these things, but under the gov't they are advocates for, they would have no voice. TXL
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:30:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom:
And if you are a successful business owner, then you have more money than you know what to do with
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I've seen a lot of that believe at DUh. I still can't figure-out where it comes from. I work with many small businesses, and I've never seen one that "had more money than they knew what to do with." Most had to struggle to meet payroll each week. There are a lot of small businesses in this country and only a very small fraction end-up large enough to public.z
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I'm not sure where that idea comes from either but I work with someone who would probably agree with it. She falls into the category of someone that lacks all common sense and logical thinking when it comes social issues. What she feels is right, is what she thinks even if all the facts counter it...just like the anti-gunners who thinking banning guns would stop all crime.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:37:26 AM EDT
If you compare the 10 planks of Marx's "Communist Manifesto", to institutions, agencies, and programs run by govt. in this country, you'll see that the structure, and regulation is in place.. Couple this with govt's desire to disarm us of precisely the types of weapons the 2nd protects, and other Constitutional infringements, and you'll see we are well on the road to tyranny.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:47:47 AM EDT
I can explain this. If you consider your average socialist advocate. -unemployed -unskilled -resentful -spiteful Now you take this virtually unemployable person (who is often educated and has a overestimated sense of self worth) and tell him he's really not good for more than flipping burgers (despite his ability to cite the Communist Manifesto or Koran verbatim) and it conflicts with his personal belief that he should be "in charge." So he resents all authority (usually starting with his parents who told him to get a real education and become marketable) and blames everyone but himself. But rather than become valuable (by aquiring useful skills) to others, he'd actually prefer the entire world change for his benefit. And ONLY in a socialist system could someone this functionally uselss prosper. Since he has no skills whatsoever he would have to be an overseer of sorts. And only in a socialist system (which requires a requisite amount of idiots to believe it could actually work) would there be people stupid enough in charge to see "value" in a person like this. Usually desired positions are given as a reward for dedication to this hopelessly failed system.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:08:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DigDug: SWIRE: I find that woman in your avatar to be extremely annoying.
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Yes I tend to agree. Under Communist rule both, her and her family would have been killed. BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND: Look at the ones that want socialism in their lives... uneducated or needy,unemployed. The ones that want it that are ALREADY in power are control freaks. They are also those that lack vision. That think the grass is greener on the other side. I would rather fix what we have than throw it away and start new.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:09:10 AM EDT
It's about power. They don't have it. They want it. If they get it, see how fair they play. Bilster
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:28:40 AM EDT
People want to believe in something bigger than themselves. They see the promise--a happy world in which everyone is equal and everyone works for the cause. The motivations of the true believers are not unlike those of religious believers; in fact, you'll notice that the rise of Socialism was correlated with the decline of religion. That's a heavily mined observation. There was a book written along those lines about that, "The God that Failed".
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:32:05 AM EDT
You're all so wrong. Socialism is about having mommy and daddy to suckle from for your whole life!
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:05:42 AM EDT
I've always seen socialism as the political manifestation of the very human desire to take people who have it better than you down a notch. Marx, for all his weird ideas about a dictatorship of the proletariat and common ownership of the means of production, did identify the biggest problem with civilization: there is always an exploitive ruling class at the top which prospers from the labors of the masses. It's been that way since the very beginning in Mesopotamia, and no socialist/communist revolution has been able to do away with it either. I think the one time and place where there wasn't a ruling class or authoritarian government was the Barcelona collective in the 1930's, which only managed to work for a couple of months before it collapsed. Anyway, the ideas of socialism, where the rich pitch in most of their resources to help the rest of society, is a very appealling idea. The idea of getting something for nothing, while eliminating the possibility of someone having it much better than you. I'd probably be in favor of socialism if I thought it would work: the masses could be counted on to pull their own weight and the government agencies would strive to be as efficient and benevolent as possible.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:17:05 AM EDT
Well this is a deep topic. I will oversimplify and just bring up one issue. Like someone else mentioned, the socialists want universal ("free") health care, education and stuff. Take someone who is struggling to get through college, or who can't afford medical insurance and tell them they have a god-given "right" to education or a "right" to medical care, and this is a very seductive promise. They don't acknowledge the burocracy necesarry to administer such institutions, nor the fact that if you burden talented Doctors with mountains of paperwork or limit their income because they don't "need" all that money, pretty soon you would have doctors saying, "Fuck this! I didn't go to medical school and residencies for 7 years after college to earn peanuts!" The socialists don't acknowledge human nature like that. They think if they could only implement their system everyone would give it their all for the good of society. Compare this to capitalism where the Doctor busts his or her ass in school and works odd hours because of the big paycheck but at the end of the day, you're glad to give the Doctor his big paycheck for saving your life. Everyone is happy. Don't get me wrong, most of the Doctors I know are also into it for humanitarian reasons and because they enjoy helping people but they also would not be working in that field if they had to take a 50% pay cut, either! So the bottom line is the socialists and the like want everything free and a communal effort. If you have the talents for a skilled occupation like a Doctor, then they see know reason why you wouldn't give it your all to improve "society." Sure it's illogical, but they tend to overlook that for the promise of "free" healthcare and being free from the responsibility for providing for themselves. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:20:40 AM EDT
Welfare: Explain the attraction?....
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:33:24 AM EDT
So too many greedy bastards who won't work for thier share is what ruins socialism?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:39:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: In the Soviet Union, those who were just a little more equal had special traffic lanes for their cars ONLY !!
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Cool! We have that already in the form of carpool/HOV lanes. Even the high-way is paid for with taxpayer money, only certain priviledged people are allowed to used it, if you don't want to suffer a $300 fine.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 10:52:42 AM EDT
Like all theories, application is the big hurdle. Under perfect socialism, everyone is equal. There are no wants, there is no desire to have what your neighbor has. Needs are taken care of so all of society can strive for the betterment of that society. The sign up ahead reads WELCOME TO REAL LIFE Now factor in human nature. Call it the "Grass is Greener" syndrome. Humans are not equal. Some are smater, some are prettier, some can shoot better, and some have better rifles. And because of this diversity of the human species, true equality cannot exist and becaue everyone is not equal, pure socialism cannot exist. If given the opportunity to not have to worry with bills, aquisition of wealth and shit like that, and I could work to better society, invent the longer lasting lightbulb if you will, and live in a perfect socialistic society, I would pr'oally jump at it. But since it is, by definition, impossible, that offer wont be happening any time soon. Another thing, if everyone were equal, we would all essentially be carbon copies of each other. The same job, the same everything. So in my case, we would all be aerospace engineers and would have no toilette paper.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 11:32:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 11:32:43 AM EDT by mw365]
Let's boil this down and make it simple; people espouse the political beliefs that will benefit them the most. No one who is good at anything wants to be a socialist, because they are on the giving end. People who are untalented (in the ways many have mentioned) are all for it, because they have nothing to lose and everything to gain; they are on the receiving end of it. Someone wanted an explanation of welfare, too. I'll tell you exactly how that is. Welfare recipients live like they want to work. And I know them. A woman my brother knows who has scammed the system any way possible. Young single mothers my wife used to work with who worked exactly 30 days per year to guarantee their earned income credit. Most of all, my own brother-in-law/sister-in-law, who have a 7th grade/GED education, respectively. My niece will be 10 this year, and still talks like a baby. My nephew is 6 and still wets his pants. They live in filth, and continue to do so, because they can't seem to dislodge their head from their asses to realize that they BOTH need to work. My b-i-l once got legitimately hurt on the job; he didn't turn it in to Work Comp because he "doesn't believe in lawyers." Now he's at home, on his ass, with a hurt back. 7th grade education, can't do manual labor--you're f**cked. Of course, there's always that big EIC tax refund at the end of the year--unless you worked for cash under the table (DUH!). Ever think about social security--your only (slim) hope of ever retiring? Of course not--live in the now. Maybe I shouldn't rant so much. Sitting in my gun case is a nice nickel S&W 29 "Harry Callahan" pistol that passed from b-i-l to father-in-law to me, largely because b-i-l was cash strapped, and couldn't hock it for much. When the EIC didn't happen, he couldn't buy it back. He asked my f-i-l if he could make payments on it; my f-i-l told him he could make [b]one[/b]! My wife bought it for me for a graduation present. Education really pays off!
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 1:00:52 PM EDT
i see an interesting demographic of socialism subscribers. this is young males like Highschool age and up. they will argue that socialism is the ultimate form of government (exact words usually) they also seem to usually be computer geeks obsessed with MAC computers and other windows alternatives. they tend to slam our war on terrorism, and refer to the U.S. as imperialist (but can never really offer any proof of this). the upside of this is they also are cowards that would rather play game cube than actually act on their beliefs. pathetic people.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 1:16:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattsd: i see an interesting demographic of socialism subscribers. this is young males like Highschool age and up. they will argue that socialism is the ultimate form of government (exact words usually) they also seem to usually be computer geeks obsessed with MAC computers and other windows alternatives. they tend to slam our war on terrorism, and refer to the U.S. as imperialist (but can never really offer any proof of this). the upside of this is they also are cowards that would rather play game cube than actually act on their beliefs. pathetic people.
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FWIW, I've always been a Mac user, and I think that Socialism is the greatest evil the world has ever seen.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 1:17:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 1:40:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattsd: they also seem to usually be computer geeks obsessed with MAC computers and other windows alternatives.
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Odd that I've found the exact opposite, at least in my area. M$ Windows and Socialism both suck ass.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 2:08:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 2:10:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 2:11:11 PM EDT by TUMOR]
Originally Posted By liberty86: If you compare the 10 planks of Marx's "Communist Manifesto", to institutions, agencies, and programs run by govt. in this country, you'll see that the structure, and regulation is in place.. , and you'll see we are well on the road to tyranny.
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THAT'S THE TRUTH!!! I used to ask people "Have you ever heard of the Communist Manifesto"? Answer: "Sure I have." "Have you read them?" Answer: "Well...........uh....." "Here they are!" And I'd go down them 1 by 1. I'd usually get to about 6 or 7 before the person would get so uncomfortable that they'd call me names and/or storm off. I don't do that anymore because I don't care anymore if the Sheeple rot! And people like Socialism because they are DAMN LAZY! It's EASY to be a Socialist or advocate Socialism.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 2:13:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 3:13:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil:
Originally Posted By mattsd: they also seem to usually be computer geeks obsessed with MAC computers and other windows alternatives.
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Odd that I've found the exact opposite, at least in my area. M$ Windows and Socialism both suck ass.
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A good portion of them are part of the Linux/Open Source movement. You can identify then as the idiots shouting "software/music/intellelectual property WANTS to be free." Not suprisingly, very few of them produce IP. They just want to take it freely from others. The leeches of society.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 3:25:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: If you compare the 10 planks of Marx's "Communist Manifesto", to institutions, agencies, and programs run by govt. in this country, you'll see that the structure, and regulation is in place.. Couple this with govt's desire to disarm us of precisely the types of weapons the 2nd protects, and other Constitutional infringements, and you'll see we are well on the road to tyranny.
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Yup.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 3:37:51 PM EDT
The association of socialists with Mac users probably comes from the rich, insulated white kids who live on daddy's dime and yet shout about the "worker's revolution". They've got the money to slap down for Macs and are attracted to the flashiest operating system most insulated from the details of reality. Not to say that macs don't have their merits, but they're more accomodating to idiots.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:50:34 PM EDT
The whole mac connection thing is just an observation i made around here. i know people that prefer macs, and arnt commies, but thier just seems to be this core that like thier macs and socialism. thier also obsessed huge with star wars, new matrix movie, role playing games, the lord of the rings and the like. i guess typical geek stuff.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:36:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:22:51 AM EDT
It's all very simple. Those who want something for nothing want socialism. The trouble comes about when there are enough of them to vote it for themselves.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:30:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:47:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: People advocate socialism because they see only one thing: the perceived evils of capitalism.
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The perceived evil being having to work for a living. Socialism is about the acceptance of mediocrity. A system where there is no stimulus to excel, or achieve. TT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:50:26 AM EDT
Socialism is an institution, capitalism is an economic theory. For socialism to work you first need a capitalist system, however basic or ill, to exploit or a command economy whereby you are essentially serfs. Countries with socialism depend on capitalism to feed the process. Countries without capitalism (like Cuba) are forever stuck in a time warp, with some good results (good Olympic teams and some areas of medicine) but general overall slavery to the state and miasma. No one emigrates to a place like Cuba, though they might have a thriving tourist industry with a little capitalist exploitation. In the main it is a conflict of visions of the nature of man. Socialists believe he is perfectable, given the proper guidance and incentive, hence the proliferation of "sciences" in academia that deal with the social/economic condition (incl. environment, sex, race, gender, age, etc.) This is why you have an abundance of elitist professor types who have adopted socialism or communism, which values and uses their output of ideas to manipulate the populace with occasional good results. Even a blind squirrel has a cogent thought. Capitalists believe that freedom engenders it's own rational order, that man will act eventually in his own best self interest, although he may fail many times before the natural order is established. A free capitalist society is more tuned in to the underlying nature of man and does not attempt to change him directly but understands that change is inevitable.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:24:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:26:27 AM EDT
CLASS ENVY 'nuf said
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:43:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:43:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:46:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:58:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 7:59:47 AM EDT by TitaniumT]
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By TitaniumT:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: People advocate socialism because they see only one thing: the perceived evils of capitalism.
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The perceived evil being having to work for a living. Socialism is about the acceptance of mediocrity. A system where there is no stimulus to excel, or achieve. TT
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Partially correct. The intellectual socialists will point you towards corporate abuses, frauds, corruptions and monopolies. They will point towards the focus on profit over safety, working conditions, pay or medical benefits. Theoretically, when a company doesn't have to worry about staying on the razor's edge between profit and loss, they are freer to devote funds and time towards a good work environment, etc. Practically, it doesn't happen that way, because free money is too good to pass up, no matter your station in life.
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I steered clear of Poli Sci and Economics, preferring the less abstract hard-core sciences, so my views are personal and perhaps less sophisticated than what yours are. Regardless, I do know that in a Marxist society, I wouldn't be enjoying the fruits of my labor. TT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:03:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:22:31 AM EDT
I found this explanation about 18 months ago in an interview written by William F Buckley Mr Buckley was interviewing Gen Vernon Walters and asked the the following:
What is the attraction of socialism to political elites in the Third World?
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The good General answered:
Socialism allows mediocrities to rise to the top, to run things. A third-rate economics student can become finance minister. A two-bit and unprofessional soldier can become head of the army. A doltish, untalented academic can be an official, important intellectual
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This I feel is spot on, not only in the "Third World" but everywhere and sadly on our educational campuses as well
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:55:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: How is it that socialism/communism/Marxism...
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Most students of Pol Sci (for OR against) will tell you the three are not identical.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:21:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Can anyone address how socialism can be advocated for given the 100% rate of socialist regimes that required purges and mass arrests/killings to accomplish the transition? Or how it is that every socialist regime in history had to turn their border guards around to point their weapons inboard to keep their own people in? Given the spectacular and very well publicized failures of socialist regimes to protect even the most basic rights for their people, do socialists just think, "Well, the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Poland, Yugoslavia, Albania, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea and Cuba were/are all disasters, but it'll be [b]different[/b] when I'm in charge!"
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Communists are idealists. Their God is themselves, and manifests itself in the State. The State is violent and cruel, because they have no moral standard. It's all based on emotion, "feelings", and at the higher echelons, a "coldness" towards human life, to accomplish the ends of the state. We see that here in the US in the coldness towards the unborn. Those in favor of abortion are overwhelmingly socialist in their politics. See?? We have mass killings right here. Disregard for human life is a hallmark of a socialist. Their religion is embodied in the State.....
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:28:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Can anyone address how socialism can be advocated for given the 100% rate of socialist regimes that required purges and mass arrests/killings to accomplish the transition? Or how it is that every socialist regime in history had to turn their border guards around to point their weapons inboard to keep their own people in?
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Actually, Jarhead, IIRC, in the 70's the Chileans elected Salvadore Allende (an open socialist) as their president. The United States didn't like that and the CIA instigated a coup. Naturally this is because the United States is on a mission to spread democracy throughout the world, except when the elections don't turn out the way we want. So with the CIA's help, General Agosto Pinochet basically marched his troops into the country's capital and made himself president. Don't you just love Central/South American politics? [:)] As you probably know, Pinochet was then responsible for the "disappearance" of some 40,000 political opponents. So that sort of turns your scenario on its head. We also see Europe getting more and more socialist and there have not yet been any mass killings in any of those countries (England, Spain, France and so on). The mass murdering commies and socialists get all the press because mass murder is much more emotionally charged than a country turning gradually more socialist as a result of the ballot box. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:07:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:13:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:18:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 10:21:30 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
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