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Posted: 5/16/2003 4:36:45 PM EDT
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-flag14.html Hundreds of Cook County sheriff's deputies have been wearing their patriotism on their chests since the 9/11 terrorism attacks. They've pinned American flags to their uniforms, expressing solidarity with soldiers overseas. Now they're steaming that sheriff's administrators have ordered them to take their pins off. "It's absolutely absurd," said one deputy at the Criminal Courts building at 26th and California. "This is America." "If you can't wear an American flag in America, where can you do it?" said the deputy, who asked that he not be named. "I don't think it's infringing on anybody's rights." Sally Daly, a spokeswoman for Sheriff Michael Sheahan, responded that a uniform is supposed to be, well, uniform. Deputies have been sporting all sorts of different flag pins, Daly said. Some were combos of the U.S. flag and the Polish flag. Others paired the U.S. and Irish flags. "By definition, uniform means uniformity," Daly said. "Those weren't." The sheriff adopted a general order in March that prohibits deputy sheriffs from wearing any type of pins or emblems, except for a department-issued award pin, Daly said. The only exception is a military service pin, Daly said. They may be worn with the permission of the chief deputy sheriff, Robert Beavers, a retired paratrooper who wears one himself, Daly said. On Tuesday, deputies in courthouses across Cook County were told to remove their American flag pins during roll call meetings in which they receive their daily instructions. One of them, who works in the Markham courthouse, estimated the pins have been worn by about three quarters of the more than 150 deputies in the south suburban facility. "The president wears a flag on his suit," the deputy said. "It's not like we are wearing a flag across our backs. It's a one-inch pin on our uniforms. People are dying overseas for our country and we can't wear a flag?" Maybe eventually, Daly answered. The sheriff's research and development unit has been asked to explore the possibility of putting an American flag on deputies' uniforms as a standard feature, she said. "Whether it's in the form of a patch or emblem or something of that nature is yet to be determined," Daly said. "No decision has been made."
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 5:59:57 PM EDT
My Dept just had a roll call yesterday and they told us the same things. Although none of our supervisors have actually told us to remove them yet.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 9:06:08 PM EDT
This doesn't surprise me. Most police department beaurocracy is so spineless, issues like this are a weekly occurrance.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 9:20:38 PM EDT
bummer
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 9:25:29 PM EDT
So adopt a uniform standard. Flag patch always to be worn on the left shoulder, or something. Not that hard to figure out. CJ
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 10:29:19 PM EDT
Our Dept. (Marion Co. Indiana) as well as a few other local and surrounding areas issued pins shortly after 9/11 with a flag and in the blue field had a Sheriff's(or other badge insignia) star instead of the 50 stars. Many of our guys have worn their own personal flag pins before and after though with open support by all. I think all this EXTREME politically correctness has gone to the point of being politically UNACCEPTABLE.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 3:04:19 AM EDT
Where i work lots of guys are wearing the flag pins. the prior service guys typically wear a pin that has both the US flag and their service branch flag. It's technically a violation of the rules and regs, but nobody is enforcing it.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 5:55:34 AM EDT
Man that really burns my ass, those men and women are putting their lives on the line everyday and they cant wear a flag pin. Fuck that shit, I say a lawsuit is in order or maybe a case of blue flu. This shit reminds me of when I was in the Gulf, we werent allowed to fly our flag there and that pissed me off to no end. I remember the first time I saw Old Glory when I got back tot he States, made me feel damn proud to be an American.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:04:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 6:05:14 AM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
WTF is happening to us? Cant wear an American flag while protecting and serving the American people. I am not sure I could work under a sherriff like that POS.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:08:41 AM EDT
Well, this is COOK Co. Think Chicago! The commies are in control in Illinois.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:13:47 AM EDT
Our supervisors already gave up trying to get us to stop wearing our flags. i guess they realized how futile and dangerous suspending the entire department would be.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:32:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:59:31 AM EDT
It is a UNIFORM. I would not think of putting something on my uniform that I was not specifically authorized to wear. I am sure that the members of our armed forces are, for the most part, great patriots. How many of them do you see wearing flag pins on theie Class A or Class B uniforms? None. Cops essentially work in Class B uniform (in fact, that is exactly what ours is called in the Policy Manual). The only awards, pins or decorations allowed on the various service uniforms are specifically listed and authorized. Anything else that an officer chooses to add to their uniforms is very clearly a violation of policy. I imagine that is the case in about 95% of the LE agencies in the country. "Is that a PLEDGE PIN? On your UNI-FORM?"
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:01:49 AM EDT
Is it a sign that they will be enforcing unconstitutional laws soon? Perhaps someone had a conscience and didn't want them to get mixed up with a patriotic american. [;)]
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:17:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: It is a UNIFORM. I would not think of putting something on my uniform that I was not specifically authorized to wear. I am sure that the members of our armed forces are, for the most part, great patriots. How many of them do you see wearing flag pins on theie Class A or Class B uniforms? None. Cops essentially work in Class B uniform (in fact, that is exactly what ours is called in the Policy Manual). The only awards, pins or decorations allowed on the various service uniforms are specifically listed and authorized. Anything else that an officer chooses to add to their uniforms is very clearly a violation of policy. I imagine that is the case in about 95% of the LE agencies in the country. "Is that a PLEDGE PIN? On your UNI-FORM?"
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Let me guess, your the LEO who is the guy that never jokes around and is always a total stiff on duty right?
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 9:12:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: "Is that a PLEDGE PIN? On your UNI-FORM?"
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Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Let me guess, your the LEO who is the guy that never jokes around and is always a total stiff on duty right?
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Absolutely not. My point is that it is a UNIFORM, and as such is governed by regs and policies. If officers could show up wearing whatever the heck they wanted, it wouldn't be a uniform and some of the folks would show up looking like officers on Napoleon's General Staff. A marine would not show up for duty wearing a flag pin. A soldier would not show up for duty wearing a flag pin. A sailor would not show up for duty wearing a flag pin (I can't speak for the Air Force; they seem to have more of a "dress code" ad "business casual" ethic than a uniform policy). A cop should show up for work in unform as well. Frankly, I am more concerned about clean weapons and magazines and an overall neat, professional appearance, which is why we have inspections at show-up, but flagrantly violating policy cannot be tolerated. A cop who won't follow basic and simple uniform policy is one who has entitlement issues with regards to policies, and as such is "Stage 1 Corruption." This is bad, from a management and leadership standpoint, and is a warning sign to supervisors that the employee feels that policies (and perhaps even legal standards and conduct guidlines) don't aply to him/her. This is the kind of thing that GOOD police leaders/supervisors note and deal with immediately, before the rot sets in. In any organization with a para-military structure (and the Police are a para-military structure, like it or not), you cannot allow breakdowns in discipline like that. It has nothing to do with a sense of humor (I have pulled some pretty nasty practical jokes). It has to do with maintaining effective discipline and control of subordinates. As a supervisor, if I failed to take action on such a flagrant and obivious policy violation, I would have my a** handed to me by my supervisors, and would probably even lose my stripes in the process. You can tell I studied for the promotional exam. I am actually getting promoted in the near future. And for the record, I have no problem with wearing flag pins on the uniform, as long as they are authorized (or at least not forbidden). The most obvious and best solution, from the management end, is to authorize and issue a flag pin, and make that the ONLY authorized pin of its type for the uniform. In the mean time, unauthorized accoutrements should be forbidden.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:21:24 AM EDT
Where I work we all put all kinds of pins on our Uniform Shirt Pocket Flaps.I'll admit some are downright stupid ( NY Yankee Symbol colored like an American Flag, Mickey Mouse Pin colored like an American Flag ) IMHO Very Unprofessional.Now if its just an American Flag Pin then fine.Also most guys since Sept 11 2001 have Black Mourning Bands on their Badges and refuse to remove them .I took mine off after 90 days because that's what the directive said.Right now some of us have yellow bands around our Badges to show support for troops overseas.However our administration has not made a decision as to what can and cannot be worn.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:34:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:37:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:52:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: So adopt a uniform standard. Flag patch always to be worn on the left shoulder, or something. Not that hard to figure out. CJ
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What he said! Most LE Depts. in IN do this.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:57:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: PS: forgot to add - only in Cook County Illinois could this happen - can't wait for that stinking hell hole to fall into Lake Michigan.
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Hey, we don't want them ethier.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:27:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By natez:
Originally Posted By natez: "Is that a PLEDGE PIN? On your UNI-FORM?"
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Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Let me guess, your the LEO who is the guy that never jokes around and is always a total stiff on duty right?
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Absolutely not. My point is that it is a UNIFORM, and as such is governed by regs and policies. If officers could show up wearing whatever the heck they wanted, it wouldn't be a uniform and some of the folks would show up looking like officers on Napoleon's General Staff. A marine would not show up for duty wearing a flag pin. A soldier would not show up for duty wearing a flag pin. A sailor would not show up for duty wearing a flag pin (I can't speak for the Air Force; they seem to have more of a "dress code" ad "business casual" ethic than a uniform policy). A cop should show up for work in unform as well. Frankly, I am more concerned about clean weapons and magazines and an overall neat, professional appearance, which is why we have inspections at show-up, but flagrantly violating policy cannot be tolerated. A cop who won't follow basic and simple uniform policy is one who has entitlement issues with regards to policies, and as such is "Stage 1 Corruption." This is bad, from a management and leadership standpoint, and is a warning sign to supervisors that the employee feels that policies (and perhaps even legal standards and conduct guidlines) don't aply to him/her. This is the kind of thing that GOOD police leaders/supervisors note and deal with immediately, before the rot sets in. In any organization with a para-military structure (and the Police are a para-military structure, like it or not), you cannot allow breakdowns in discipline like that. It has nothing to do with a sense of humor (I have pulled some pretty nasty practical jokes). It has to do with maintaining effective discipline and control of subordinates. As a supervisor, if I failed to take action on such a flagrant and obivious policy violation, I would have my a** handed to me by my supervisors, and would probably even lose my stripes in the process. You can tell I studied for the promotional exam. I am actually getting promoted in the near future. And for the record, I have no problem with wearing flag pins on the uniform, as long as they are authorized (or at least not forbidden). The most obvious and best solution, from the management end, is to authorize and issue a flag pin, and make that the ONLY authorized pin of its type for the uniform. In the mean time, unauthorized accoutrements should be forbidden.
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I can see where your coming from and respect your POV.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:27:43 AM EDT
I agree with the whole issuing a flag pin and possibly saying where exactly it should be worn.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:16:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: PS: forgot to add - only in Cook County Illinois could this happen - can't wait for that stinking hell hole to fall into Lake Michigan.
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Hopefully it waits four more weeks......I am kind of stuck here temporarily, about 3/4 of the time.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:33:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: It is a UNIFORM. I would not think of putting something on my uniform that I was not specifically authorized to wear. I am sure that the members of our armed forces are, for the most part, great patriots. How many of them do you see wearing flag pins on theie Class A or Class B uniforms? None. Cops essentially work in Class B uniform (in fact, that is exactly what ours is called in the Policy Manual). The only awards, pins or decorations allowed on the various service uniforms are specifically listed and authorized. Anything else that an officer chooses to add to their uniforms is very clearly a violation of policy. I imagine that is the case in about 95% of the LE agencies in the country. "Is that a PLEDGE PIN? On your UNI-FORM?"
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I dis-agree. The LE community is not part of the USA military. The uniforms LE wear may look like military style uniforms and some of their rules and regs are similar to the military, but they are civilians.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:54:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: WTF is happening to us? Cant wear an American flag while protecting and serving the American people. I am not sure I could work under a sherriff like that POS.
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They don't "protect and serve the American people", they are local jurisdiction. I, for one, can understand why locals shouldn't wear the Federal flag. It IS a uniform, ya know...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:01:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: It is a UNIFORM........................................................................... "Is that a PLEDGE PIN? On your UNI-FORM?"
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[:D] Toldja!!!! [snoopy]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:01:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 12:15:27 PM EDT by natez]
Originally Posted By warlord: I dis-agree. The LE community is not part of the USA military. The uniforms LE wear may look like military style uniforms and some of their rules and regs are similar to the military, but they are civilians.
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Cops are civilians, but most agencies, including mine, have very specific polices (about as detailed as the military regs) about personal appearance, uniform wear and insignia. Ours, and probably most others, specifically prohibit unauthorized pins or insignia on uniforms, period. In uniform, I can (and must) wear my badge and nameplate, weapon, magazines armor and certain duty belt items. My boots or shoes (and socks, and t-shirt) have to meet certain standards. I am also authorized (but not required) to wear any Department issued award ribbons (from an approved list), an authorized longevity service pin, and one special skill badge (SWAT, Negotiator, Gang, SRO or DRE, if qualified and an active member). Oh, and one service stripe for every five years on my long sleeve shirts and jackets. That is it. Anything else is specifically forbidden, by policy. I am an honorably discharged veteran, but I cannot wear my Honorably Discharged Army Vet "Minuteman" pin on my LE uniform, nor any of my ribbons, because they are not an authorized insignia or decoration by our policy. This isn't one of those "gray" areas of endless debate. It is black and white, do or don't (and in this case, don't).
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