This article came out today in the Cleveland Plain Dealer regarding the CWRU shooting:

[url]http://cleveland.com/cwrushootings/index.ssf?/cwrushootings/more/105299100122490.html[/url]


[B]CWRU gunman used a poor man's Uzi'[/B]

05/15/03

Harlan Spector
Plain Dealer Reporter


If accused gunman Biswanath Halder didn't claim more victims during last week's rampage at Case Western Reserve University, it might be because he was using an unreliable gun known as the "poor man's Uzi."

One of the guns that police said Halder carried when he entered the Peter B. Lewis Building was a high-quality handgun, a Ruger 95DC. But the other was a Cobray M11/9, a mean-looking but cheap semiautomatic known for its inaccuracy beyond close range.

"It's a piece of junk," said Akron police Detective Paul Bralek. "They're popular at gun shows because they're cheap, they're scary looking. Unless you're up close, you wouldn't hit the side of a barn with it."

Police sources have said that if the CWRU gunman had been armed with a more accurate weapon, more people might have died during Friday's seven-hour ordeal inside the Lewis Building.

One man was killed and two people were wounded during the attack, which convulsed the University Circle campus. Halder was charged this week with one count of aggravated murder and two counts of attempted aggravated murder.

The Cobray is a 9 mm gun sold in assembly kits as well as in finished versions. Its manufacturer earned a reputation for controversial marketing tactics.

Those tactics included a gun-wielding Al Capone-type caricature and slogans such as "the gun that made the '80s roar" - an apparent reference to its popularity among drug lords.

The gun also was the subject of a high-profile lawsuit in the 1990s, brought by the families of a 16-year-old New York boy who was killed and a friend who was wounded when a Cobray-armed attacker sprayed their van with bullets on the Brooklyn Bridge.

The families charged that the company selling the kits was negligent because the gun was intentionally marketed to criminals. They also argued that the guns appealed to criminals because guns built from kits aren't subject to federal licensing and don't bear serial numbers.

The federal jury rejected the negligence claim, which was the first case of its kind to go to a jury, said Albany Law School professor Timothy Lytton, an expert on gun laws. "It was a legal way to sell a legal weapon but clearly a way to get around the regulatory system," he said. "They're trying to reach a market that would otherwise have trouble obtaining a gun."

In the CWRU case, authorities are investigating where the guns were obtained. A law enforcement source said the Cobray had a serial number, which suggests that the gunman did not buy a kit and assemble the gun. The suspect could have bought a finished Cobray from any number of sources. If it was from a dealer, a serial number would have been required.

The 9 mm kit costs about $460 and requires a couple of days' work to assemble, including spot welding and finishing, said a man who answered the phone at Cobray Co. and identified himself as owner Harvey DeMars.

DeMars said he acquired the Cobray trademark, which is no longer connected to the previous owners who were defendants in the New York lawsuit.

DeMars said most of his business is in replacement parts, but the kits are still selling.

"They're heavy, they're mean-looking, they like them for the looks," he said. The Cobray has a 32-round magazine, the spring-loaded container for cartridges.

Magazines holding more than 10 rounds are generally illegal unless produced before 1994, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. But pre-1994, large-capacity magazines are still widely bought and sold. The Cobray M11/9 magazine is larger than most 9 mms', including the other gun used during the rampage at CWRU, the Ruger.

Firing a 9 mm accurately requires skill, said Ken Barnes, a former Oklahoma police academy officer and a criminal-justice professor in Arizona. The guns can jam if the magazine is full; they are difficult to control without two hands; and novices often are tripped up by dual safeties. "Most people don't shoot well with them because you have to be smarter than the gun," he said.

The Cobray M11/9 was the subject of a book called "Lethal Passage," which detailed how a 16-year-old boy came to possess and use the gun in 1988 to kill one teacher and wound another in Virginia Beach. The shooting rampage was cut short when the gun jammed.




© 2003 The Plain Dealer. Used with permission.

heheheheh... I hate Ruger. Do you know that they supported the original AW ban?

Ha ha!  

High-quality compared to what???  A Lorcin?


*Editted to fix the quote

I don't get it.

First they say that Mac-11's and Tec-9's should be banned because they are "killing machines".  Shooters can accurately fire randomly from the hip killing a lot of people quickly without reloading/

Now they say that shooters are acually sparing innocent lives because they are using cheap crappy guns that have too many safeties, and can not hit the broadside of a barn?

Ummm....So the kits were sold complete with recievers? I've never seen such. If you buy the reciever its just like buying a regular firearm.

Never expect logical consistency from gun-grabbers.

hehehehe.....BULLSHIT.  Do some research instead of believing all the crap.

Another person in need of research.  The Ruger P series happen to be excellent guns, especially for the money.  Only someone who has never fired one and relies on the comments of gun snobs, would say what you just said.

Since when is Ruger "High Quality"

I know the Cobray M11 I have is a very fun gun.  Not all that accurate past 50 yards, but inside 50 yards it is a killing machine.  It never jams and will just keep shooting until you run out of ammo.

Since they have been making the P series, that's when.

ruger p series, best bang for the buck

and damn reliable.

Anyone who says what you said, has no clue about them.  That's ok

Not the prettiest things, but will always go bang.

TXL

Oh great, another comment from the "I know everything there is to know about guns, so listen close junior" crowd...[;)]

Larry, I have shot the P95, I wasn't impressed.  That being said, it did go bang, repeatedly, but 'high guality,' that's a label I reserve for top of the line guns.  If that's 'high quality' to you, what's a Sig P210 (for example) to you?  "Super duper, top dog quality"???

So sorry if I'm a 'gun snob' for having a friggen opinion.  

Told ya he used a MAC, back in the first thread...

And of course, what he neglected to mention:

The MAC is so popular because it is the cheapest machinegun legally available to the public in quantity (I may buy one (full-auto) for just this reason, in a year or so)... It serves as good promotion for semi-auto sales  (like to this goofball) too...

No, it's a cartridge firing machine.  Heck, even my username refers to hunting.  It may be calling the kettle black a bit, but I politely suggest you word things a little differently.  The anti's troll here quite a bit.  

Anybody want to take bets on what will be the big sellers at the next gunshow?  Mabe it's time for me to unload the old Intratec Sport 22 that's been sitting in the back of the safe.

I saw it on the History channel a long time ago.  Bill Ruger loved gun control and preferred the government as his only customer.

Well I guess he would not sell very many guns then. Granted alot of us have 10/22's and some of us love thier revolvers. But if the government was thier only customer they would not make much money.

There is no way I can refute what you think you heard on the History channel.  Suffice it to say, in my almost fanatical viewership of the History channel I missed that program.

Bill Ruger was known for promoting the "Rugged Individual"  who was self-sufficient and took responsibility for his/her own actions.  He was a big supporter of the NRA.  He was too smart a business man to "cut off his own nose to spite his face".  Comercial sales are the life blood of Bill's company.  He knew that.  I doubt his government sales are over a few thousand units a year.

In my opinion all you give up with a Ruger P series over a more expensive gun is a beautiful finish and fine styling.  The functionality of the pistol is outstanding.  

I have a couple Ruger MK II pistols with which I am impressed.  Also a Security Six that I am just getting to know.

Had a P95 and got rid of it.  The thing was less accurate than a well worn WWII 1911 I have.  IMHO the P95 is a POS.

Have shot a M11 a good bit.  They DO require a bit of skill in FA mode.  No more or less deadly than any other gun.

What I have not seen mentioned is that the GUN was not the problem.  Rather than the tool, it was the friggin CRIMINAL PERSON using the tool to commit murder.  He could have done as much insane killing with a knife or baseball bat.  Regulate CRIMINALS, not guns!

How do we regulate CRIMINALS before they become criminal?  THAT is a difficult problem to solve.  However, a few CCW holders ready to SHOOT and KILL the perpetrators of these insane acts WOULD solve the problem on the spot!!  The police can not be everywhere.  The intended victims are there and most certainly have the right to defend their lives.  Were it not for the "curl up in a ball" types and our COMMUNIST Gov Taft (may he roast in hell) we would have CCW in Ohio.  Same morons that want no CCW in schools.  Once again, their false agenda has claimed innocent lives that could have been prevented!

Every one here should call, e-mail or write to Taft and the legislature pointing out that, once again, THEY have been responsible for insane and preventable murders.  The blood is on their hands.  Families of the victims should sue every friggin anti in OH government for their complicity in these murders!  May all the antis burn in hell for their continued support of murder of innocent people!!

I thought about this for a few and submitted this to the Plain Dealer:


Once again an insane murderer has struck at a school.  As always, the anti-gun cockroaches are crawling out of the woodwork.

Where are those who see how to stop the nonsense?  Those who can place the blame where it belongs, on the crimminals commiting the insane acts and their friends in government?  Many of our elected representatives and our pathetic excuse for a govenor should be PROSECUTED for complicity in this crime.  THEY are responsible for providing unarmed victims for the criminals to prey upon!  THEY are responsible for denying Ohioans the right of SELF DEFENSE according to the State and Federal constitutions.  Blood is on THEIR hands!

How long would these insane attacks continue if the perpetrators knew that their friends in government and media were no longer helping them?  That they were at considerable risk of a RAPID one way trip to hell for trying to do such a terrible thing?  Without a ready pool of helpless victims most of these rampages would cease.

Maybe one day, enough people will remove their head from their anus and SEE what is so clear to the rest of us so that we can end the insanity!!

Pass Vermont Style CCW TODAY!!!


Anyone care to bet on whether they have the balls to print it??

Your mileage may vary.  In the hands of a shooting buddy of mine who has a P95, I have personally watched him send two full boxes of ammo (100 rounds total) at 25 feet through a hole 2" wide (freehand, not bench rest).  That's better than I do with my Kimber Custom Target.

Agreed. My friend's Ruger has the absolute smoothest double action OEM trigger I've ever played with on auto. It even rivals the trigger pull on his custom Model 19 Smith.

Ruger did back the original ban in 1994 that is fact, there guns were not effected by the ban so they felt no reason to fight against it.

Bullshit.  The old man tried to compromise when the AWB came up and tried to get them to go to a 15 round limit and NOTHING ELSE.  He even stated that they should leave the guns (everybody's guns) ALONE and just do a mag limit thing.

Just because YOU say it's a FACT, doesn't make it so, just like the antis bogus claims (which have no truth in fact and are fabricated bullshit, just like your FACT).

I also own HKs and Sigs, and the Ruger is high quality.  Quality means it works everytime.  It may not have the bells and whistles of the others, but it works everytime.  It may not be pretty, but it works everytime.  An opinion is one thing, but you made your statement as a fact.  Yeah, I probably do know a lot more about guns that you and I don't base an opinion on having shot one example of any given model.  I don't like Glocks, but I don't say that are not quality because I don't like them, they are just not for me.  So, pay attention, 'junior'.

OH, you saw it on the History Channel.  Oh, that's real definitive.  How about a link that shows he 'loved gun control'.  Some of you people are as bad as the antis........'oh, so and so told me.....'.

Total horseshit.

Just remember, one persons "quality" is another persons "junk"

And in my previous post about the Mac being a killing machine within 50 yards, lighten up, I am only killing soda pop bottles.

I think Ruger firearms are mass produced low budget guns.  They have nowhere near the quality of some other manufactures.  I own 3 Ruger firearms and the only guns I think are worth the money are there rifles and revolvers.  Their auto pistols are junk if you ask me, but thats just my opinon.  Flame suit on.

Larry,

Having been around here for a long time, I have grown to respect your opinions, well at least I used to...

Frankly, this whole, 'my dick is SOOO much bigger than yours!' shit doesn't fly well with me.  Maybe you're right, in fact I'm the first person in the world to admit that the knowledge I lack could fill a large room.  So guess what?  You probably do know more than me.  But I'm okay with that, and I'm always willing to learn, that's why I throw out opinions, instead of proclamations like yourself...  Sorry if you didn't agree with my opinions based on MY experiences.  And they were simply that, opinions.  

But who knows, you're just some guy on the internet, so why should I listen to your word over anyone else's here?  

Frankly I'm disappointed in your attitude, I expected more of from a person that's been around so long.  But I guess you're the big man here, so I'll just back away from this thread with my tail between my legs....

I only said that because of your comment:

.  I did not see your smiley at the time and maybe I took it too seriously.

I have owned a bunch of P series pistols.  I sold several of them when I had some financial difficulties due to a huge layoff by Nortel.  Now that I am back on my feet, I am restocking and just acquired a P89 to go with the P90 that I kept, since it was my first pistol, sentimental value and all that.  I have owned a P95, a P97, and several P94s.  They are quality pistols and I have had ZERO malfunctions with any of them.  I have found that I prefer the P89/P90/P91 style, so the P95/P97/P93/P94 styles are not in my future, but simply due to a preference of appearance, not function or quality.

I may get a little steamed sometimes when I read what I think is nonsense, but my Rugers have always worked as well as my HKs and my Sigs and to say they are not top quality is just snobbery because they don't cost enough.  That is the way I see and it's backed up with the experience of owning a few Rugers, not based on having fired ONE.  I didn't take what you said as stating an opinion, but more as a statement of fact.  Perhaps I misread you.

Ruger is high quality.  Sig is a luxury.

Shok

Ruger is quality? I think they are very mediocre. They may be reliable but don't have much else going for them. I can find a better gun for the money with nearly every offering they make. Old Bill Ruger was way too much into reduced capacity mags. They had a policy of selling 30rd mini-14 mags only to LEO's YEARS before the AWB even took place. They can keep their cheap looking junk.

.....I would put my Kp90 up against any of my colt 1911's any day. My mini -14 is another story though....

bill ruger? the same bill ruger that tried to make amends for his traitorous act by donating million to the nra (called indulgances, in religios circles)?

[url]http://www.survival.com.mx/gunrack/b_ruger.html[/url]

[url]http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-papabill.html[/url]

[url]http://www.gunnerynetwork.com/files/2bills.html[/url]

[url]http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/stuff/ruger.txt[/url]


that bill ruger???

disgusting. simply disgusting.

Okay, I admit that I made a negative comment on a gun that I personally did not like.  In retrospect, that was wrong, I forget how defensive people get (myself included) regarding their personal choice in arms.

Now I have no beef with Rugers.  I like their rimfires, but I personally do not like the semi-auto P series.  No, I did not own one, but I had a fair share of trigger time behind my buddies' guns (P89 long long time ago, P95 more recently), enough to know it wasn't for me.  That being said, they did go bang every time without a problem, so perhaps I shouldn't be so critical.  But I'm not a big fan of DAO, so perhaps that is the first problem.  I also didn't care for the sights or the placement of the controls, but again, that's just user preference.  Sure it's not the 'prettiest' thing, but that's not a fair judge on quality of a gun.  

I supposed we are disagreeing on semantics, basically what is a 'high-quality' gun.  One that goes bang every time, or one that goes above and beyond that.  I believe the latter, you the former.  

Also, I was a bit defensive, I get that way sometimes, especially when I get called a gun snob.  I take offense to that, because despite my handle, I can appreciate all types and makes of firearms.  I don't like gun snobs, and I try hard not to be one.

Anyway, sorry for insulting your guns, and sorry for jumping down your throat for you reply.

Now let's get a group hug! [;)]

Ah, DAO.  None of mine are DAO and none that I have ever owned are DAO, as I also dislike DAO.  Mine have always either been a manual safety/decocker DA/SA or decocker DA/SA model, more recently leaning towards decocker with no safety, as that makes them more similar in use to the Sigs and HKs.  I know the HK has a safety, but you have to push the lever up to engage it, whereas when you decock it, it returns to the fire position, unlike the Ruger safety, which when you decock it, stays in the safe position and does not return to the fire position.  The decock P89 I just got returns to the fire position like the Sigs and HKs I have.  I find that I now always return the safety/decock lever to the fire position on the P90 instead of carrying with safety engaged like I used to do.

Try a DA/SA decocker or safety/decocker model sometime.  The SA trigger on the Ruger is much better than the initial DA pull and after you get one broken in, the triggers smooths out a good deal.

Gee, what I read is some writers spouting their personal hatred of the man based on very little.

He neither initiated nor agreed with a 10 round limit.  He proposed a 15 round limit as opposed to banning or changing anyone's guns.

Which goes to another point, it was said several times that the magazine limit he proposed was to protect his rifles at the expense of other manufacturers.  How would a magazine limit affect ArmaLite or Bushmaster?  He explicitly proposed the mag limit as OPPOSED to banning any guns and he said they should leave the GUNS alone.  There would be no preban/postban crap.  I don't agree with a mag limit, but he was trying to compromise with the assholes on the mags and leave the guns alone.  So, once again, tell me how a mag limit would affect his competitors.

Also, is it possible that he was quoted out of context, or is that just reserved for guns you like, such as Bushmaster or Glock in their recent tribulations?  Bushmaster was taken out of context and raised holy hell, whereas Glock was not taken out of context and has done nothing to say that they were, yet many people ignore their stance on 'ballistic fingerprinting' and keep buying Glocks.  

At least Bill Ruger realized that you can't compromise with the antis and made a public statement as such and said he would never do it again and more than made amends, which is more than can be said for Glock or S&W.

And the reason that the Mini was not affected by the ban is that it NEVER has come from the factory in the configuration used to define an SAW, so it's not politics.  It is affected in that, unless you did it before 9/94, you can't put aftermarket goodies like a folding stock, etc on it.  So, none of those writer's crap really hold water at all.