This is scary.  Post your mistakes, suggestions, price guidelines, etc.

Please?

I'll tell you what little I know...if you date the women I usually end up with you are going to be paying out the ass for the ring they want that's big enough.  

Hopefully Shivan will weigh in here, he's a bit of an amatuer diamond expert.
For what it's worth, by quality not size.
Also, for what it's worth, the only reason women think they need a diamond is thanks to a DeBeers ad campaign in the 30's or 40's.  Prior to that the traditional engagement ring stone was a garnet.  DeBeers started all this "if he really loved you wouldn't he buy you the best" bullshit.  So, basically, by buying a diamond engagement ring you reinforce the truth that all women (yes, even your mother and mine, your sister and mine, your daughter and mine) are money grubbers.
I'm not saying don't do it, just know what you're getting into, and be informed.
My ex and I were looking at rings and it turned into a nightmare.  She just wanted a big-ass piece of shit ring, and I wanted something that I could at very least see as an investment.
My biggest piece of advice?  Don't "go shopping" with the girl/woman.  Try and get an idea of the style she likes, and then go get it on your own.  It will save you millions of head and heart aches.  If you consult her and then don't get what she wants, she'll be hurt.  If you buy it on your own, at least if it's butt-ugly, it'll be the fact that you surprised her that she'll love.

They have yet to make a ring that can plug a hole................

A ring is a way of securing an asset, with any insurance dont pay more than what the asset is worth.

Make sure YOU make it as long""(theengagement)""as possiably, like 3-5years. That way, when you get to see the real "woman"[whacko].........you'll have no regrets about cutting the cord with the ring on it.

pay close attention to what TJ and Norman say, they are right on the money. Pick the ring yourself and keep it simple, a simple round solitaire with no additional stones is best. Focus on the main diamond and make sure it comes with either a GIA or IGI gemological report. Color and clarity are very important. VSi and color E are the minimum you want to go for. Platinum settings are more durable than gold, remember, she'll most likely be wearing it for a long time. If she rejects the ring you probably don't want to marry her anyway.

I always start haggling at 50% of what the price tag states on any jewelry I buy for the Mrs. Never pay over 60% of the tagged price.

1 local store automatically will give me deals at 60% for just walking in the door, no haggling needed.

This works for me at small family owned shops, I have yet to try it at any big chain stores...
Although I did "Jew" Oshman's down on a .22 once.

From my experience:

they are expensive

the mall will try to sell you a flawed piece of junk at 5 times it's value

you won't be able to get your money back out of it easily when she gives you the ring back 9 months into the engagement.

There are several internet sites that list "wholesale" diamond values.  They aren't wholesale but they are pretty close.  Study up what makes a diamond worth the money.  Look up diamonds on the internet sites to see what they are really worth, print that out and go to a local jeweler, do not go to a mall store.

My brother runs an online jewelry store and if you know what you want he can special order it.  You would probably save some money that way.  Check out [url]http://www.diamonddelight.com/[/url]

Make extra sure it is made out of CARBON and not SILICON.  This is especially important because some dealers will try to pass off silicon stones for the carbon ones.

One good thing, in most states she is required by law to give you back the ring if she breaks it off before the wedding.  The ring is considered a conditional gift, and since she doesn't come through on her end of the deal, you get the ring back.  Of course, if she just becomes an intollerable bitch...you're screwed.

I hear the nose hole will heal up after a few years.

Avoid engagement anything...

Whoaahhh...I just bought an engagement ring this morning, yes I am back in debt, but she is worth it.  I can only repeat what Norman74 said, buy quality not size.  She (and the women she shows it to) will be able to tell the difference between a large, flawed boulder and a near perfect smaller stone.  As a female friend said of another woman's ring once "it was over a carat but it wasn't the best quality."  Good luck.

lol

My wife and I went shopping together for her ring.  We selected an Amethyst set in silver.  On Sale for $60.  That’s right; $60.  There is no way we were going to wrap up $4000-$6000 or more in a luxury item.  

My advise on buying a ring: If you can’t pay cash for it you cant afford it.  

The jewelry industry has linked dollars spent to amount of love for years.  Its patent BS.  It’s a debt trap.  It would be laughable if it were not so financially perilous.  

But wait!  That $6000 ring is an “asset”.  Think again.  Is it putting money in your pocket by generating income?  Nope.  Will it be worth more in the future? Nope.  I have yet to see someone sell a ring for more than they paid much less what they paid.  How about all the interest your paying on this liability?  More economic horsepower down the tubes.  

So now you have a $6000 liability.  Can you live in it, drive it, or convert it quickly into cash?  None of the above.  Sure you may be able to sell it or pawn it, but are you going to get rid of her precious engagement ring?

And how about physical liability?  I know a woman that walks around with a $10000 dollar ring!   I’ll bet a nickel a crook could move it for $3000.  Talk about walking around with a sign on that says “ROB ME”.  

I am constantly amazed by how far people will go into debt just to measure up to societies expectations.  And in this economy!   To each his own I guess. Not worth it.  No way, no how.  Anyone who measures my love for my wife by how much I “spent” (borrowed) on her ring can go fly a kite.

For those of you who paid cash for her ring, I salute you.  

Hey markl32,

My sister-in-law walks around with a $45,000 stone on her finger.  Talk about ostentatious!

This goes back to buying quality.  If you buy a shit ring at the mall, then yes, your money will be flushed down the toilet.  However, if you purchase a high quality stone, you'll have something of an investment.
My plan was to spend a good amount of money getting a nice setting, and then a few grand (yes, cash, sorry I know how to, and have the self restraint to, save) on the rock.  In a few years, when we were more stable, and likely as an aniversary gift, I'd "trade in" the old smaller rock on a new larger one in the same setting.
Again, Shivan knows more about this than I do, and I'm sure when he shows up in this thread he'll be of more help than I am.

round.

shiny.

expensive.

This is very true as the diamond market is heavily controlled by the diamond suppliers, they only release enough diamonds as needed to keep the prices high.  At any time they could flood the market and make diamonds worth much less than they are going for right now.  Whenever a company tries to compete with the diamond suppliers that is exactly what they do so that company cannot make a profit and goes out of business.

Educate yourself first, then go to a variety of places.  Find a reputable dealer that doesn't leave you feeling like someone has been trying to pick your pocket.

Diamonds themselves are not particularly rare, after all, they are made of carbon, one of the more common elements in the world. A little pressure (OK a LOT of pressure) and some heat, and voila, a diamond.   The Russians have warehouses full of them that they can't get rid of thanks to the South African cartels.

What makes a diamond special?

Color, Cut and Clarity.

Color and Clarity are easy to see for yourself with a jewellers loup or a jewellers microscope.  The fewest possible inclusions (other elements trapped in the diamond) and and other visible flaws makes a diamond valuable.  A diamond with no inclusions is either super valuable, or a fake.

The tricky bit is cut. A good cut determines the amount of fire or sparkle the gem gives out when exposed to light.  A poor cut is dull and diffused. The trick is that in a jewellry shop the place is chock full of hallogen lamps with bright white lights.  They'll light up even the worst piece of cut glass.  You need to look at the diamond under more natural light.

When I bought my wife's engagement ring, I looked at unset stones until I found the right one, then I bought a decent platinum crowned gold ring with 6 prongs. Then I checked it out in the setting.  That was the best way to go.

Jewellry markup is outrageous.  100, or even 300% is not unheard of. If you are very shrewd you may be able to dodge a lot of that.

These days I get further with the occasional opal in a handcrafted setting for my wife.  There are a couple of artisan jewellers I deal with.

Remember a few other things...big stones DO NOT mate well with wedding bands.  Neither do Marquis cuts, pear cuts, diamond cuts, etc.  You end up getting trapped into funky custom bands with a zig-zag in them to get around the stone.  Standard round solitaire cuts are simple, traditional, and versatile.

Good luck.  And definitely go for quality over size.  A lower quality, poorly colored stone that happens to be honkin' big will NOT impress her.  She'll see that it's yellow, that the inclusions are visible with the naked eye and that the stone isn't clear and the cut diffuses the light poorly rather than refracting it brilliantly.

One last thing:

Value can be based on things other than the rarity of the object.  Sure you may not be able to get back out what you put into a diamond, but you can also assign value to intangibles like making another person feel special, love (not lust, lust is a pretty poor reason to do anything).  Some of the folks who expound on the meaninglessness of those intangibles have maybe let their cynicism overtake them.

There are some very good points out there about how to buy the ring.  Definitely make the decision after finding out what shape looks best on her hand -- but make it without here in the store.  Try to deal with a guy, this made it easier for me since I felt I could tell him to slow the hell down...

The man I dealt with was in Colorado, he was a recommended dealer from my best friend, who used him for his wife's ring.

He did not keep stock of diamonds in the quality range I wanted so he had no reason to PUSH one stone over another to me.  You have got to do your homework and figure where the compromise is going to be.  You absolutely need to set an outside limit of spending and adhere to it, or some lower number under "it".

I wanted a "perfect" stone that would easily gain value, simply because of the bazillions of diamonds mined each year I wanted one that represented the top 3%...I wanted a D color {colorless} and IF/F {internally flawless or flawless} this is the highest up the chain you can get in those two categories.

She defined the cut she wanted: emerald

So my variable that I would sacrifice would be carat weight.

The jeweler I used asked me would I rather have this this or this?  Then went to searching...

I ring from a mall jewelry store may be all you can get, that may be fine, but that is a purchase not an investment.

Investment grade diamonds are defined by the rarity.  Do your homework, do your howework, do your homework.

Use [url]www.bluenile.com[/url] as and education tool, use their diamonds search faeture to find out ballparks, they are pretty close to what you will find in average to good deals in the open market.  You can get better deals in NY shops {diamond district}, but not by much.

Here is what I ended up with:

[img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=2309[/img]

It is now appraised at over twice it's paid value.  A similar ring with a smaller lower quality stone was compared in Bailey, Banks & Biddle and it retailed for $22,000.00.  I paid less than 1/3 of that.  Cash for those of you that care about that sort of thing. [;)]

YOU [u][b]MUST[/u][/b] DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!

If your budget is $1000 then you may be limited to Kays or Zales or whatever, but remember that is totally different from investment grade stuff.  Think of that as a gun purchase with less use.....[lol]

If anybody seriously needs some printed material, IM me an address and I can provide a further comprehensive text that touches lots of detail......

Ed

First, set your budget.  Then learn about the 4C's and buy accordingly.  From a jewelry wholesaler.  Buy the diamond by itself first then get the setting.  Best bet is to have the jeweler who sold you the diamond make the setting and mount the diamond for you.  I suggest getting a GIA certified diamond, so if you ever have any doubts, you can get the diamond appraised and see if you actually have what you paid for.

We can post all day long but you will have to go out, take a look for yourself, and then learn everything...if you don't want to get ripped off that is.

Go to a jewelry store, even a mall store will work for this.  Find several rings that you think you would like.  Write down every detail about the diamond.  The size, shape, weight, clarity, measurements (if they have them), and who certified the diamond.  Also make a note of the price.  They will tell you what the diamond cost and what the setting will cost.

Then go [url]www.ediamondbrokers.com[/url] and click on lose diamonds.  Do a search that will cover the specifics that you wrote down and then compare the prices.  You will very quickly begin to understand what makes a good diamond vs what the salespeople tell you is a good diamond.  BTW, jewerly stores use special high powered lights to make any diamond sparkle so don't be fooled by how beautiful it looks in the store.

Also, if you are interested in a .62 carat round diamond, D color, VVS2, GIA certified with laser inscribed serial number, send me an IM.  It is currently set in a white gold ring with a small side stone on each side, making the total weight 3/4 carat..
You will be hard pressed to find a diamond of much higher quality.

This is only true of middle grade to low grade diamonds.  If that is what you buy then yes, it will be effected by the saturation, or lack thereof, of other similar diamonds.

Despite the dump of ANY quantity of diamonds in to the market a "D-IF" will continue to appreciate.  They just can't dump a huge amount of that quality in to the market.  Why, you may ask?

Because for every ton of diamonds mined, and separated for cutting in "jewelry" grade pieces these "D-IF" diamonds represent 3% of the total that are worthy of cutting for jewelry.  Out of that 2000lbs of diamonds you may get 1lb or 10lbs of jewelry grade stuff...so out of 10lbs of diamonds from the 2000lbs, you may find ONE that meets these characteristics.

This is for each and EVERY ton, or 100's of tons, or thousands of tons.....

Think about the quality and rarity...

Your typical SI1 or I1 H or I color stone from Zale's can be had without much hassle, thus you see them in great quantities in these chains.

two words cubic zirconium

No, go to a jewler and get quality- not the mall.

What Paul said.  Buying a ring is one of those things that you can do cheaply if you want, but I consider it part of my discretionary spending.  So I may not get a return on my investment?  Who cares?  My car loan is 0%, my mortgage is 6 5/8 %, I just paid off my student loans, etc. etc. It's all about having an optimistic attitude...In the future will I regret spending as much as I did?  If I'm better off than I am now, obviously I won't.  Optimism built this country.  If I'm actually working hard to improve my economic situation in life, I have the right to spend money as well as save it.

Shivan, I suspect that you are bizarro-norman74.
You drive the car I almost bought but thought better of, you bought your fiance a ring virtually identical to what I was going to buy for mine (only because it's what she wanted, I actually don't like the way it looks myself, haha).
I think that despite our online differences, we would probably get along quite well in the real world.

We can differ in opinion Paul, but quite honestly I'm not sure you care to understand the market for diamonds of superior quality.

I guess you wouldn't buy an M16 since you can own an AR15 and have everything except the appreciable value and full auto.  Afterall, the M16 is simply an artificially price-inflated trinket that isn't really worth that much...right?

Or how about the first Mustang to roll off the assembly line?  Simply a non-usable car that really does nothing better than a $8000 Hyundai Elantra does.

How about artwotk by Picasso, Monet, etc...unusable, non-valuable decorations that do no more than the snapshots I have on my wall.

Rarity is the key.

All this talk about assets and investment value is depressing.  This topic is about an engagement ring that will (hopefully) be worn or at least owned for the rest of the woman's life.  Anyone who is worried about investment value shouldn't be buying an engagement ring.  Or is that just the Romantic Latin half of me speaking?  

Depending on the woman you marry, and depending on what the woman you marry actually turns out to be some years down the road,  that tiny little piece of polished crystalline carbon can be the heaviest millstone around your neck or the symbol of the buoyant force that causes you to walk on air.

Beyond that,  let her help pick the one she wants to ensure happiness.


CJ

Great googly-moogly!  I cant even fathom having $45k of economic horsepower tied up on my finger!  I'll bet she is the life of the party though.

No apologies needed!  You have illustrated my point; your paying cash, therefore you can afford it.  At this point our only difference is taste and priorities.  

I must differ on the investment.  Does anyone have a first hand story of selling a diamond for more than they paid for it?  An investment indicates you’ll capitalize on it some day.  I just cant see saying “Ok Honey, its been 10 years, time to sell the ring”.  The only time I can see a ring getting sold is in the case of divorce or upgrade.  In the former case I’ll bet most people take a bath on it.  I’d be interested to here if anyone broke even or had a gain on an upgrade.  I am no diamond broker, and if I am missing something I am open to learn, but I just don’t see diamonds as an investment.  

If you say ”Go to hell markl32, I like diamonds, my wife likes diamonds, and I get more nuggie every time I upgrade that rock”  I can respect that.  

It kills me to see people go into debt for a status symbol. Especially young people who put them self at such financial risk just to hang with the Jones’s.  Sorry to be a stick in the mud fellas.

Is it depressing because you have been conditioned your entire life to believe that love has no price on it? [B]It could that the truth is- that the size of the ring is a symbol of the market value of the woman,[/B] why do you think women "show off" their big rings that their man gives them- cuz they are "beautiful"?- not hardly a Cubic Z is just as visually appealing as a real rock, but it costs a 10th of the real deal- you don't see bitches showing off their 3 karrot CZ do you...

when you buy a ring for a woman you are merely securing an asset- the asset is the woman...not the ring.

Still Depressed?

Alright, here's everything I know about engagement rings..
The shape of the stone determines how big it looks not taking carats into mind.  Solitaire is classic, but you can also get pear, princess, marquise, heart, etc. etc.
You get VVS (very very slight included)1 or 2, VS (very slightly included) 1 or 2, SI (slightly included) 1 or 2 and I which is bad.  Colors range from D-K i believe.  You don't want any lower than a VS2 and a G or H in color.  The higher the letter the more yellow the stone appears.  

A princess cut diamond is square shape, a pear is teardrop shaped, a marquise is a like two triangles together and the solitaire is round.  I prefer the princess..you can have it set at an angle to creat the classic diamond.

I believe anything over about .35 carats starts getting too big.  In some shapes even that much is too big!  

The band..platinum is the most durable but it shows more wear.  Gold is classic and always pretty.. white gold will start to erode and you will need to get it plated.

Ask your girl her preference...that's your best way to go.  Everyones different.

The standard amount for an engagement ring is two months salary.. I don't recommend spending that much although it's very easy.  You can always wait til the store has a sale..they mark it down considerably 'cause they're not gonna lose a dime either way.  It's generally the jewelry no one seems to want to buy but you can find some pretty pieces in there..especially if you buy the stone separate from the band and have it set after.

There ya go...now ya know a little more.

Tiffany rings are bank but they are held to high standards and you're not likely to be tricked there.

What do I know about engagement rings?
Only that it's eventually going to cost you a lot of money to get away from the one you bought it for.

I paid cash.  I have personally been in the store on three upgrades w/ close friends...one for size and two for better quality and different cut.

The first one was a $1000 gain over paid price 1 year after initially purchased.

The other two were $4000 and $5000 over what they paid.  The last two were Tiffany set stones.  Remember this is basically trading back in at wholesale....

Is a house you live in for your whole life a not an asset or an investment?  I plan on leaving quite a bit of an "estate" for my kids.  This will include a flawless diamond that may become and heirloom or a sale to finance somebodies college or whatever....

If your investment horizon is different then it is really no different than us picking two different stocks.

I am simply representing the "other" side....

YMMV...

First off, the whole diamond is a huge ripp off by the De Beers family. You are just going to pay 10 times what the thing is worth. And then she will want a diamond that is larger. More BS. Dump the diamond idea and save that $2K and up price of the rock and put that money down on a house. If she is worth marrying , she'll agree. If not, consider what you are about to embark upon. In simple words, dump her and then go & buy a class III. It'll be tons cheaper in the long run. You should also save some money ,unknown to her for your divorce lawyer. Been there, done all that.

I worked in the biz for a while, so I'll do my best to explain things, & if you have any questions you can IM me if you'd like.

The 5 c's
1)Cut= the shape the stone is cut in. The best cut being the brilliant/round cut. It was designed to get the most brilliance from the stone possible.

2)Carat= the weight of the stone. Originally the weight of a carob bean, now just called carat.

3)Color= the scale of color. While there are truly colored diamonds, stick with white for your choice. the whiter the better.

4)Clarity= how clear the stone is of visible flaws. Carbon specks, inclusions, ect.,ect..

5)Cost= is determined by the top c's. The object being to get a good combination of color,clarity in a size & cut that you can afford, & she will love.

Jewelry is not a good investment for the most part as you are paying for many things that are not important in an investment.
When choosing a diamond for jewelry don't buy top grade diamonds, as a perfect in color/clarity should be kept in a safe, & not on a finger.

Never buy from a mall, ever. Don't buy of the internet as it is extremely dangerous.
Look for a place that has their own store, & has been there for a long time, as it is safer for you in the long run.

Always by shy. What I mean is , if you buy a diamond that is 1 carat, you will pay a lot more because it IS a full carat. Buying a .96 carat can save you literally hundreds of dollars, & it will be impossible to tell it's not a carat without having it weighed.

The brilliant really is the best cut, & for the money, looking for an "ideal" cut brilliant is worth the cost. This means the stone is cut to as perfect dimensions as is possible, for the optimum light refraction, & dispersion of light, & allows the least amount of light to leak out of the stone.

Buy & read the book "How to buy a diamond" by Fred Cuellar. It will teach you a lot in a short time, & you will know 100 times more about diamonds than almost any of your friends. I hope this helps you.[wave]

All I know is they lead to a debilitating disease called MARRIAGE, which is occassionally fatal.

I got lucky and found a wife who didn't see any reason to spend a ton of money on anything more than a simple gold. band

A coworker of mine bought a rock online from [url]http://www.niceice.com/[/url] and was very happy.  You pick what you want, have it shipped to a dealer near you and if you don't like it you can just send it back.  

[url]http://www.tiffany.com/expertise/diamond.asp?#[/url]
pic of Tiffany band and single solidtaire diamond

All of the above is true and I highly recommend Tiffany's. Here's why, 22 years ago, I bought my wife her ring and wedding band there. Money was kind of tight; but funny thing, this was the lowest price we found for that weight. All of those mainstream jewelry places in the shopping malls wanted a lot more, even after we dickered them down. There is no negoiating at Tiffany's, so you don't have to waste your and their time. If the price tag says $1,000,000, then be pretty much be prepared to sign a check for a million bucks.

The cut controls the brilliance(i.e. the proper grinding & polishing of each facet) and Tiffany's is above anything, anywhere.  Once we were in a darkened movie theater watching Jaws I, you could see the brilliant flashes of light coming from her ring. Cut is the most important of the 4Cs(cut, clarity, color, & carat).

Since I bought my ring, I have purchased others pieces of jewerly from them. For my wife's birthday once, I tape the powder blue Tiffany box(made famous in the movie Breakfast at Tiffany's and a Tiffany trademark) to a bouquet of  roses, and had the florist delivered it to her office. Right away the women in her office noticed her gift, and knew it was from Tiffany's(the big girl's jewelry store).

The secret to many years of wedded bliss? She has her toys and I've got mine.

[url=http://www.tiffany.com/locations/store_locations_city.asp?storeID=81&us=Y&ContinentID=1&fl=&]SCOTTSDALE FASHION SQUARE[/url]
7014 East Camelback Road
Scottsdale, Arizona 85251
480-946-9100

Store Hours
Monday-Wednesday: 10-6
Thursday-Friday: 10-9
Saturday: 10-6
Sunday: 12-5
[email protected]

My girlfriend gets reeeeeally pissed off and punches me whenever I describe the Engagement EBR that I'm planning to get for her.  "I'll even engrave our names on the receiver"--that one gets her in the fighting mood!

I read something in a book once that may be helpful....
"This page intentionally left blank."

cynic

Find the BIGGEST and CLEAREST diamond you can afford........tie 10 pound test to it..... JK, no good advice but good luck.