Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 5/13/2003 7:49:24 PM EDT
Vote now. [url=www.mcall.com/news/yahoo/all-a1_5dogsmay12.story]Councilwoman criticizes action by constables[/url] They shot three dogs, two fatally, when they went to serve warrant in Allentown for unpaid parking tickets. By Joe McDonald Of The Morning Call Saying ''there is a doozy of a problem here,'' Allentown Councilwoman Gail Hoover expressed outrage Sunday over the shooting of three dogs, two fatally, by constables serving a warrant on a man who had not paid parking ticket fines. ''These were parking violations,'' Hoover said Sunday. ''This was not Charles Manson who got out and we had to capture. This is a guy who didn't move his car so the street cleaner could get through.'' Hoover said she intends to speak with city police officials, Mayor Roy Afflerbach and state Rep. Charles Dent today about the shooting and find out the status of the investigation. She wants to talk with Dent because constables are certified on the state level by the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency. According to Hoover, there is something wrong when shots are fired over parking tickets. ''It's just a system that has broken down somewhere here,'' said Hoover, who visited the home at 312 S. Franklin St. over the weekend. Constables were serving a warrant on Jeremiah Hartman Thursday when they shot the dogs. Hartman remained in the county prison Sunday, unable to post the $3,000 bail set by District Justice Donna Butler. The dog that survived the shooting remained in a veterinary hospital awaiting surgery to remove the bullets, Hoover said. But the surgery won't be done until the vet receives a $2,000 down payment, said Hoover, who is trying to raise the money through donations. ''Something has to be done,'' Hoover said. ''I don't care if he had a hundred parking tickets. Thank God one of those shots didn't ricochet and hit one of the people . ''It's a lousy parking thing and it turns into 11 shots being fired off in a house full of people and kids. That scares me.'' There were three children in an adjoining room and other residents nearby when the shots were fired. Police Chief Inspector David M. Howells said city detectives had told him that the investigation had been completed and that charges were not going to be filed unless new information surfaces. Howells said investigators found no evidence that the homeowners tried to sic the dogs on the constables, or that the constables were reckless or not justified in shooting the dogs. But Hoover said she does not understand why the constables did not wait on the outside porch until the dogs were secured inside the house before they entered.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:01:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2003 8:02:40 PM EDT by R-32]
I dont think you are seeing the "Big" picture here....At least the officers got to go home safe! Im really proud of the fact the detectives have found no reason for charges to be pressed unless they get further evidence....and they must have been really small fast dogs for it to take 11 shots to only kill 2 and wound 1.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 8:11:05 PM EDT
The question in your subject line answers itself. If the police are involved, it's justified. Period. That's why they let the police carry guns, but not us commoners, silly boy. cynic
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 9:48:01 PM EDT
Over parking tickets? [V]
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 9:59:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: ''These were parking violations,'' Hoover said Sunday. ''This was not Charles Manson who got out and we had to capture.
View Quote
Following up on parking tickets helped them find the Son Of Sam. Sounds like good proactive, investigative police work. One more potential David Berkowitz now knows who's The Boss in that town.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 10:03:51 PM EDT
Insane.
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 10:19:29 PM EDT
Yes, parking tickets. But remember, every parked car has the potential to move and consequently become an instrument of death. Particularly if, say, driven by a trio of mad dogs at high speed through a schoolyard filled with innocent children. Now it's arguable that maybe the officers should have shot the car, rather than the dogs, but the important thing is, through good police work a potential tragedy has been avoided. cynic
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 11:55:38 PM EDT
Fact of the matter is, there was a warrant for his arrest. PERIOD. End of debate. Why there was a warrant for his arrest is another topic. The Constables were doing thier job and were sent to arrest this guy, forceably if needed, regardless of the crime committed... A warrant is a warrant... With an arrest warrant in hand, the Constables had no obligation to "wait outside while the dogs are secured" If they did so, they could also be waiting for the guy to grab a weapon, or bolt out the back door... It's not the job of the Constable to issue the warrant, only to serve it. It's not the job of the local District Justice to make the laws, only to enforce them... Perhaps we should be discussing WHY it's a jailable offense to not pay parking tickets ? Silly laws ? You bet !
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 12:13:16 AM EDT
Exactly. If the good policemen didn't follow orders, we'd have a complete societal breakdown. cynic
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 1:18:06 AM EDT
I can't believe you can get a warrant issued for parking tickets. Who get the warrant? The parker? The veh. owner? Think about it, shouldn't the person that parked the veh. have to be PROVED in order to get warrants issued? Around here, if a car gets a certain number of parking tickets, they arrest (impound) the car. Since the car was in fact the object involved. If the owner wants the car back, they have to pay the tow, storage, and parking tickets. If they don't claim it, it gets sold. They also suspend a vehicle's plates for an unpaid parking citation.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 1:41:10 AM EDT
Dragracer_Art, you cannot possibly justify shooting a mans dog simply because there is a warrant for his arrest. A warrant is not a cart-blanche ticket for law enforcement to whatever they feel like to aprehend a person. If the dogs were sic'd on the officers then hell yeah they should be put down, but it sure doesn't seem like that from the article. You're essentially saying that once a warrant is issued that any means necessary to effect the arrest are all right. Hardly! You have to keep perspective! You said that [b]"they could also be waiting for the guy to grab a weapon, or bolt out the back door..."[/b] Jesus... they were parking tickets, not an assault charge! Not rape, murder, kidnapping or armed robbery; this kind of response would be much more appropriate if any of these were why the cops were looking for him. If I had a bench warrant for non payment of a parking ticket, do you think my Beagle should be shot when they come to pick me up? He howls a lot when people come to the door, he might even aggressively lick an ankle, giving me a precious second or two to get out a deadly assault weapon with hollow point cop-killer bullets in it. I guess it [i]is[/i] reasonable to think that I'd choose to go out in a hail of bullets rather than to just pay my parking tickets off. Art, if you were just being sarcastic (and left off the smiley), please disregard all this. [BD]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 2:24:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 2:34:04 AM EDT
Obviously none of us can make an educated comment on this scenario without actually being in the Constables shoes... A poor judgement call ? Very likely. A surprise attack by aggressive dogs ? Very possible. All I'm saying is, a warrant was issued for the arrest of this individual and the Constables attempted to execute this arrest. Unfortunately, it resulted in the execution of this guys dogs instead... Of course all the cop-bashers will be first to assume that the Constables kicked the door down with guns drawn, and shot the first animal they saw... Good thing the parakeet was caged huh ? There is a bit of a difference between a cocker spaniel and a rottweiler charging you... Who the hell says a dog owner needs to "sic" a dog on someone before it will attack ? You enter any dogs home uninvited, and you will run the risk of being attacked... I'm currently running for election as Constable here in my local district, so this topic strikes a nerve with me... Personally, I think mace could/would have been a better solution... They could have grabbed the guy on the way to the grocery store or at work... Or even just come back another day. I also believe the laws that allowed this to even unfold are a bit lopsided. I don't want to play armchair quarterback without knowing all the facts, so I'll refrain from further speculation... There is a lot of unknown info that could easily change my thoughts or opinions...
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 2:38:45 AM EDT
Serving a warrant on parking tickets??? WTF? They have WAY too much time on their hands at that department.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 2:40:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 2:47:24 AM EDT
they should have use large oversized chunks of meat smothered in peanut butter.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 2:55:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 3:00:23 AM EDT by Dragracer_Art]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: One thing to keep in mind here. If I am not mistaken (and I am certain somebody will correct me if I am!) to be a constable in PA requires no prior LE experience or training, just get elected in your precinct and go at it. [blue]You are partly correct... No prior LE experience is needed to get ELECTED, but after winning election, you are required to attend an abbreviated verson of a police academy, including weapons training and certification. You must attend schooling, and weapons-qualify at least annually thereafter... You must also be bonded and insured. You don't just "have at it"[/blue][:D] As far as the warrants for parking tickets, it is all about the $$$$$. Pay up or else at one point or another they will sieze it or you at gunpoint. It is like that with any .gov agency that is in the revenue business. [blue]I agree 100%, it's all about the money.[/blue] Art, they may have had no "obligation" under the law to wait outside, but a little common sense goes a long way. So many officers seem to insist on pushing the envelope and doing everything right on the edge of whats allowed instead of using common sense. [blue]Again, I agree 100%, but without more info, it's not that easy for me to just nail these guys to the cross.[/blue]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 3:42:20 AM EDT
Whoever issued the warrant should be removed immediately. It's much simpler, and less risky for cops, dogs, and house occupants, to impound the car and revoke the tags until all fines are paid. Even Maryland does it that way. Also, I'll bet the Pa. State Police would have NEVER handled it that way. I think the constables and the issuing court entity are all liable in this.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 4:09:41 AM EDT
Next time just seize the damn car.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:12:34 AM EDT
Obviously I wasn't there when this all occured, but here is my 2 cents worth. GET THE FACTS!!!!! What is the COMPLETE story behind the incident. The press is notorious for telling just the juicy parts of the story. $3000.00 in warrants and tickets tells me that this person has more background information available. Any law abiding citizen would have either went to court or just paid the fine. The arrestee is entitled to due process. Apparantly he ignored this fact when he failed to appear or refused to take care of the citations which left the authorizing official no choice but to issue warrants. If the officers were in compliance with all of the policies, procedures, laws and ordinances then it was a good shooting. If not, disciplinary action is sure to follow. What type of force is justified for the type of warrant served? Was the escalation of force criteria used? Each situation is different and has to be investigated with ALL THE FACTS. If an officer initiates a traffic stop for a burned out tail light bulb and the officer approaches the car and the driver produces a firearm, it's no longer "just a traffic ticket". I've arrested armed convicted felons and parole violators found to be committing another felony during a simple "traffic stop". COMPLETE FACTS are needed. When serving warrants, Officer safety is #1. The dogs may or may not have attacked the officers involved. The officer has the right to protect himself from harm, even from a charging animal if the officer feels he may be injured or maimed. Use some common sense here that a little pomerainan would chew your shoes off as opposed to a rottweiler going for your throat. Again, GET ALL THE FACTS!!! And the part about the vet not doing surgery till the down payment is paid. What kind of ethical issues does that raise? Let the dog suffer while waiting for money. To me, thats a form of animal cruelty and needs to be looked into by animal welfare. Investigate and GET THE FACTS! I'm not going to vote as to whether this shooting was good or not, because of the lack of COMPLETE information.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:51:16 AM EDT
WTH is a constable?? Is it a precenict position? County? Neighborhood? Who votes for 'em? No experience, short training? They buy a mall ninja uniform, and go for it? Do they join a union? TALK ALREADY!!!! wtf/WHO TF is a constable!!??
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:52:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LRigsby: GET THE FACTS!!!!!
View Quote
[LOL] Like it would matter here. You have much to learn grasshopper. Jay
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:59:23 AM EDT
BTW, I didn't vote, not enough info in the article....
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:35:55 AM EDT
Wow, they don't play games down in PA. Last time I had unpaid tickets in Boston, all they did was put a steel boot on my tire. Well, at least this time they had a reason, its not like he left his wallet on his car while driving down the highway.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:45:43 AM EDT
A warrant .oooohhhhooo.... I had 3 warrants on me when i sold my car and the guy got parking tickets with my old plate on the car. woulda been kind of a bummer if I had constables knocking on my door and shooting my dog dog for that....
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:52:01 AM EDT
Oh CRAP!!!! I have an upaid speeding ticket in PA, I am really screwed, they will probably shoot my wife and kids......
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:55:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: WTH is a constable?? Is it a precenict position? County? Neighborhood? Who votes for 'em? No experience, short training? They buy a mall ninja uniform, and go for it? Do they join a union? TALK ALREADY!!!! wtf/WHO TF is a constable!!??
View Quote
As usual in these type of questions, you have to understand that each state has different laws. In Texas, a constable serves as the LEO for the county courts and JP courts. His main function is to serve papers and warrants issued by the courts. In Texas, they receive the same training and certification as any other LEO and must pass certification tests to take office, even though it is an elected office. So, these constables were doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Was the force used really necessary? I don't know, as I don't have enough facts. But it is entirely possible that they were justified.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:58:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 7:00:56 AM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:04:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 7:15:50 AM EDT by newbushmaster]
Parking tickets......... If any "officer" comes into my home shooting at Tyson, my 3yr old, they will not leave. NO bs! First my kid (dog), then my grandfather, then myself? Looks like I'll have to go out and buy a vest for my dog. Some of you think anything an officer does, is justified. A civilian has NO rights when an officer serves a warrant and the only their the officers actions can be questioned is in the department after the warrant is served. So, you can come kill my dog anytime you want to knock on my door and serve a low grade search warant? Why didnt they simply call the man and ask him to come down to the station-------or pull him over, he obvously drives enough. So, I voted no, you cannot come in to my home and kill my dog and indanger myself or my family. Jason wljohns@bright.net **edited for a few typos**
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:21:18 AM EDT
Parking tickets, yes, lets see some LEO justify this stuff. Rogue cops, they must be stopped, it won't be long before juries ain't convinced by the LEO line of bull and start acquitting people who resist this kind of illegal activity by them.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:22:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wave: You mean I can start shooting when people don't pay up on my parking tickets? Sweet! [heavy][chair][buttkick]
View Quote
Wave first you got to kill their dog so they suffer before they expire. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 7:56:50 AM EDT
There's not enough information in this article for me to vote one way or the other. I had to serve a criminal summons once on a person who had a particularly mean Rottweiler chained up next to his front door. I honked the horn of my vehicle and when the man opened the door, I identified myself and told the man that he needed to either come over to where I was or secure his dog in the house for a moment. He gave me a smartassed look and said, "Why should I?" I replied, "Because I am going to serve you with this summons and if your dog gets within ten feet of me, I will shoot him dead." I then reached into my vehicle, removed my Remington 870 shotgun and proceeded to approach the front door. He got his dog inside the house damned fast and I served him the summons without further incident.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 9:54:44 AM EDT
This is no idle boast ,I am telling the Gods honest truth,if the Constables in this story shot and killed my dog which we consider a member of our family and is loved by us this story would read, [red][b]"Constables (all) shot and killed by irate homeowner,SWAT team is being deployed!" [/b][/red]
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 10:19:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy: This is no idle boast ,I am telling the Gods honest truth,if the Constables in this story shot and killed my dog which we consider a member of our family and is loved by us this story would read, [red][b]"Constables (all) shot and killed by irate homeowner,SWAT team is being deployed!" [/b][/red]
View Quote
[b]If[/b] the constables in the article simply came upon the property and shot the dogs, without a damned good reason, I would agree with your sentiment, if not your incredibly foolish course of action. There is a difference between a dog simply being present and it being used as a weapon. If a person employs a weapon against me to prevent me from carrying out my lawful duties, I will disarm them. If the weapon they are employing is a dog, that means that I [b]will[/b] shoot their dog. That includes intentionally leaving the dog in the yard in order to prevent me from executing a lawful warrant. It strikes me as odd that anyone who considers their dog a "part of the family" would be cowardly enough to use it as a shield (I in no way imply that that is what you were referring to jrzy.)
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 10:39:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jrzy: This is no idle boast ,I am telling the Gods honest truth,if the Constables in this story shot and killed my dog which we consider a member of our family and is loved by us this story would read, [red][b]"Constables (all) shot and killed by irate homeowner,SWAT team is being deployed!" [/b][/red]
View Quote
While I can understand your anger over this situation, and while I am not justifying the shooting of someone's beloved dog, please reconsider your response. Do you really think that it is worth killing a police officer and suffering death yourself or at least prison, over a dog? Consider the following scenario: "Irate homeowner" is finally allowed some peace as Big Bubba in cell block #13 finally tires and rolls over to go to sleep. Irate Homeowner thinks, "I can't believe I have been in prison for 20 years, my wife and kids are deprived of a husband and father, my family has lost it's home and is living on welfare. And it's all because I shot a cop over a dog." Surely there is a better solution to this problem than shooting a police officer in anger.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:02:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 11:15:01 AM EDT by Sniper_408]
Originally Posted By R-32: I dont think you are seeing the "Big" picture here....At least the officers got to go home safe! Im really proud of the fact the detectives have found no reason for charges to be pressed unless they get further evidence....and they must have been really small fast dogs for it to take 11 shots to only kill 2 and wound 1.
View Quote
Spoken in true Fuzz fashion...[rolleyes]
Top Top