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Posted: 5/9/2003 4:36:06 AM EDT
[url]http://www.msnbc.com/local/WGBA/M294164.asp[/url] [b]Seventeen-year-old charged with killing baby.[/b] Oshkosh, WI, May 8 - An Oshkosh teenager is charged today with drowning her newborn baby and hiding the body. An Oshkosh teenager is charged today with drowning her newborn baby and hiding the body. Seventeen-year-old Kristen Cleaver appeared in Winnebago County Circuit Court today where Commissioner Daniel Bissett set bond at 100-thousand dollars cash. The teen is charged with first-degree intentional homicide and hiding a corpse. A criminal complaint says Cleaver gave birth to a girl in a bathtub at her home on March 16th, saw the baby moving, but left the child's face down in the water. The complaint says that after the infant stopped moving, she placed the baby in a blue plastic bag and kept it in her bedroom closet. Cleaver's mother, investigating a strong odor, found the bag on April 26th and called her husband to come home. They found the dead infant in the bag and called police. The complaint says Cleaver's parents suspected their daughter could be pregnant and confronted her in February. But, the teenager denied it. Pathologist Alan Stormo did an autopsy on the child's body, determined it was full-term newborn, but could not determine whether she was born alive or deceased. -Associated Press More to the point, how can the parents not know what was going on?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:56:11 AM EDT
I can understand in certian circumstances how the parents might not know. For my own expirience: My sister-in-law (a nurse no less) didn't know herself she was pregnant until she went into labor. She suspected, of course, but all the tests (including doctors office tests) came back negative. She weighed in at 98 lbs max and was trying to gain weight. She gained 10 pounds and thought she was doing well. She confided in my wife that things weren't right, but thought it might be a case of having too low a % of body fat to have a period. I ate lunch with her 3 days before she went into labor. I didn't have had a clue. BTW her second child bearing experience could have been a copy of the first but she knew what to look for the second time and "discovered" she was pregnant at 3 months using ultrasound. Horomone tests didn't work on her for some reason and she just didn't gain weight and carried the baby very high. Both boys were in the 6 lb range when born and are totally normal at the ages of 9 and 11. Their mother is still a rail at 5'6" and approx. 100lbs On to the subject at hand: This girl has serious issues. I don't know what else to say... Very sad [:(]. Kent
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:58:05 AM EDT
Man that's sick. She must be one fatass teenager to be able to hide a full term baby.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:59:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Green_Canoe: I can understand in certian circumstances how the parents might not know. For my own expirience: My sister-in-law (a nurse no less) didn't know herself she was pregnant until she went into labor. She suspected, of course, but all the tests (including doctors office tests) came back negative. She weighed in at 98 lbs max and was trying to gain weight. She gained 10 pounds and thought she was doing well. She confided in my wife that things weren't right, but thought it might be a case of having too low a % of body fat to have a period. I ate lunch with her 3 days before she went into labor. I didn't have had a clue. BTW her second child bearing experience could have been a copy of the first but she knew what to look for the second time and "discovered" she was pregnant at 3 months using ultrasound. Horomone tests didn't work on her for some reason and she just didn't gain weight and carried the baby very high. Both boys were in the 6 lb range when born and are totally normal at the ages of 9 and 11. Their mother is still a rail at 5'6" and approx. 100lbs On to the subject at hand: This girl has serious issues. I don't know what else to say... Very sad [:(]. Kent
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I stand corrected.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 5:33:03 AM EDT
Terrible. Where are the parents? How could you be that distant from your own children?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:21:45 AM EDT
So sad. If society would focus more on the options available after birth instead of murdering them in the womb, maybe this wouldnt happen as often.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:24:33 AM EDT
This just pisses me off to no end. My wife and I have one child and are (hopefully) expecting our second. Each one required us to go through infertility ...wife on hormone pills, shots etc and then me getting to jerk off into a cup....(DukeNukem, can I borrow that hand lotion?) Doesn't sound like much to go through, but when it is you and every month that the treatments failed you are heart broken. (not to mention having your wife jacked up on extra female hormones brrrrrrrrrrrrr.....) Then to read how kids are throwing their babies away. Grrrrrrrrrr. Fuck em. If they are that much of a POS that they can KILL a defensely baby, I say death penalty. FUCK HER she is 17 therefore an adult. That scumwad in CA who killed a baby while still unborn got charged with it. Send a nice loud message out to all the lil teenagers who think that it is ok to throw away a defenseless life, do it and we will throw yours away too. I am so pissed when I read that shit. /rant off/
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:32:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 6:33:29 AM EDT by California_Kid]
Originally Posted By Stoney-Point: ... More to the point, how can the parents not know what was going on?
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Stupidity, denial, desperation, lack of moral direction, lack of backbone, fear, ignorance, no support from others in the community who might have been able to help... [V]
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:41:25 AM EDT
sigh [:(]
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:53:20 AM EDT
I work with a guy who's wife went through menopause when she was 12. She had one normal period, and that was it. no more. No chance for them to have a kid. They are going through the whole adoption process. It is heartbraking for them to read about this type of stuff. Here they WANT to have a child and can't...this 17 yo had sex, got pregnant, hid it from her family, gave birth and killed the baby. She didn't want the child...but others do. My friend and his wife have to jump through hoops and do a dog and pony show to prove that they are worthy of having a child. Seventeen-year-old Kristen Cleaver didn't have to do any of that, and she is definitely NOT worthy of having a child. Life is twisted in some ways....this being the most cruel.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:18:48 AM EDT
This happens regularly. I hear about this in the news from time to time. I think it has more to do with the fact that females live on the edge of insanity. Then the hormones kick in. I'm not saying that this is excusable, just that there seems to be a pattern. Maybe the parents should have been more involved. Supposedly sane women do this to unborn fetuses every day.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:23:46 AM EDT
M.D.s this and worse to preborns every minute... 4.5 million dead since Roe V Wade America's Holocaust
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:31:30 AM EDT
I've said it before and I'll say it again... Good is bad. Bad is good. Black is white and white is black. And MURDER is "choice" and self-defense is murder. Anyone still think that were aren't headed for a fall?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:39:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stoney-Point: Pathologist Alan Stormo did an autopsy on the child's body, determined it was full-term newborn, [red]but could not determine whether she was born alive or deceased. [/red]
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That'll keep her out of the chair. [V] And RedLabel is absolutly correct. We're fucked.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:42:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dave223: So sad. If society would focus more on the options available after birth instead of murdering them in the womb, maybe this wouldnt happen as often.
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Well said! I am not surprised by stuff like this at all. We tell kids all the time that a baby in the womb is not a human. We tell them that it is legal and moral to kill the unborn. [i]So why are we surprised when they actually do it?[/i] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:44:27 AM EDT
Green_Canoe, Your sister is an idiot. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:52:27 AM EDT
I hope that this girl cannot have any more children. I hope she hears her baby's cry whenever she closes her eyes. I hope she sees her baby whenever she closes her eyes. Perhaps we can find a small group of the Taliban somewhere and send her to them for proper treatment.... I know all sin is equal in God's eye, none being worse that the next, but I am having a real hard time seeing that way right now.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:55:32 AM EDT
"Situational Ethics"..
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:56:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By dave223: So sad. If society would focus more on the options available after birth instead of murdering them in the womb, maybe this wouldnt happen as often.
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Well said! I am not surprised by stuff like this at all. We tell kids all the time that a baby in the womb is not a human. We tell them that it is legal and moral to kill the unborn. [i]So why are we surprised when they actually do it?[/i] Sgtar15
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Did neither of you read the bit? The girl [b]gave birth[/b] in the tub, there was no abortion. This was a born baby that was murdered, not an unborn.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:11:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:11:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BennyFranklin:
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By dave223: So sad. If society would focus more on the options available after birth instead of murdering them in the womb, maybe this wouldnt happen as often.
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Well said! I am not surprised by stuff like this at all. We tell kids all the time that a baby in the womb is not a human. We tell them that it is legal and moral to kill the unborn. [i]So why are we surprised when they actually do it?[/i] Sgtar15
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Did neither of you read the bit? The girl [b]gave birth[/b] in the tub, there was no abortion. This was a born baby that was murdered, not an unborn.
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I read it! My point is both are murder! If you tell a kid that they can kill/murder the child inside of them, then it is a short step for them to believe that they can also kill the baby once it is out side of them! Killing is killing wheather it is at the 1st trimester, 1 month old or 18 y.o.! Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:25:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: I read it! My point is both are murder! If you tell a kid that they can kill/murder the child inside of them, then it is a short step for them to believe that they can also kill the baby once it is out side of them! Killing is killing wheather it is at the 1st trimester, 1 month old or 18 y.o.! Sgtar15
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Remember: the difference between a legal medical procedure and first-degree murder is six inches of birth canal... ... and sometimes not even that much! [:(]
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:42:42 AM EDT
I am the father of tiplets (thus the screen name). My wife and I tried for a long time to get our three beautiful babies. It always amazes me when young mothers kill their babies. Young parents often seem to lack an understanding of the amazing thing they that is pregnancy. I am not a big fan of saying "society needs to ...", but society really needs to emphasis life and the options for the babies other than abortion/murder. As many of the posts show, there are many couples who could provide a wonderful home for these kids. What a tragedy.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:48:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stoney-Point: Pathologist Alan Stormo did an autopsy on the child's body, determined it was full-term newborn, but could not determine whether she was born alive or deceased. -Associated Press
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How the hell? Maybe I'm being a Keyboard Coroner here, but WTF was in the baby's lungs? Was it bathwater or whatever the hell is in the womb? I would think there's a chemical difference between the two.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:54:16 AM EDT
If she kept the child underwater, the fluids might never even have drained from the lungs.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:56:41 AM EDT
And that's just ****ed up. She's gonna go to trial and say it was stillborn and she was just too scared to know what else to do with it. Today's such a nice day too, great time for a reminder why some of us never should've come down from the trees.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:11:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By naloxone: Today's such a nice day too, great time for a reminder why some of us never should've come down from the trees.
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Hell, even the trees were a bad idea; some of us never should have left the oceans...
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:18:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OmegaMan:
Originally Posted By Stoney-Point: Pathologist Alan Stormo did an autopsy on the child's body, determined it was full-term newborn, [red]but could not determine whether she was born alive or deceased. [/red]
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That'll keep her out of the chair. [V]
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No death penalty here in WI. I hope she rotts in hell.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:22:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:24:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:33:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By BennyFranklin:
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By dave223: So sad. If society would focus more on the options available after birth instead of murdering them in the womb, maybe this wouldnt happen as often.
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Well said! I am not surprised by stuff like this at all. We tell kids all the time that a baby in the womb is not a human. We tell them that it is legal and moral to kill the unborn. [i]So why are we surprised when they actually do it?[/i] Sgtar15
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Did neither of you read the bit? The girl [b]gave birth[/b] in the tub, there was no abortion. This was a born baby that was murdered, not an unborn.
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I read it! My point is both are murder! If you tell a kid that they can kill/murder the child inside of them, then it is a short step for them to believe that they can also kill the baby once it is out side of them! Killing is killing wheather it is at the 1st trimester, 1 month old or 18 y.o.! Sgtar15
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Point taken.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:14:09 AM EDT
Canoe how can your sis not know she was pregnant? Did she think she had an alien in her belly when it kicked and moved around? Besides not having periods, when you feel the baby move, there is no mistaking a pregnancy especially in someone so thin. Large fat women have do have undetected babies all the time. The question with them is who got them pregnant! But if she is thin as you say, she has BIG issues. Serious denial.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:15:17 AM EDT
This is sickening! I don't know how or why anyone could do this. No explanation she could come up with would be excusable. Sure her parents should have been more involved and aware of what was going on but that is no excuse for what she did. She is old enough to know right from wrong. Afterall, she is almost old enough to be considered a legal adult. It is sad that this teenager puts such little value on a human life. Why would she put it in a garbage bag and place it in her closet? Did she think the bag would preserve it or something; didn't she know it would decompose?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:59:19 AM EDT
The authorities should use her last name on her!
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 11:26:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BennyFranklin:
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By dave223: So sad. If society would focus more on the options available after birth instead of murdering them in the womb, maybe this wouldnt happen as often.
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Well said! I am not surprised by stuff like this at all. We tell kids all the time that a baby in the womb is not a human. We tell them that it is legal and moral to kill the unborn. [i]So why are we surprised when they actually do it?[/i] Sgtar15
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Did neither of you read the bit? The girl [b]gave birth[/b] in the tub, there was no abortion. This was a born baby that was murdered, not an unborn.
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What is the damn difference between a premature birth and an abortion? Only the mother's intent! Ok, so it IS legal for a woman to kill her unwanted baby...sick! You fail to realize it doesn't swing both ways...the baby is NOT a part of the mother, its only 1/2 of the mother. They do NOT share blood as the placenta PREVENTS exchange of blood. A baby is a human life from conception to death...its survival is dependent on the mother for the first 7 months, after that, it can live with mechanical means...neonatologists are down to saving 16 ounce babies...A FREAKING POUND! And despite the liberal goronic claims, there is NOT an overabundance of babies available for adoption. Matter of fact, there is a shortage.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 12:04:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 12:15:32 PM EDT by Green_Canoe]
Originally Posted By ARDOC: Canoe how can your sis not know she was pregnant? Did she think she had an alien in her belly when it kicked and moved around? Besides not having periods, when you feel the baby move, there is no mistaking a pregnancy especially in someone so thin. Large fat women have do have undetected babies all the time. The question with them is who got them pregnant! But if she is thin as you say, she has BIG issues. Serious denial.
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Baby did not move until it "dropped" at the time labor began. As I stated in the post she is so thin she looks anorexic (she is not). My wife, her sister, is 5'9" and 120lbs. The thinness runs in the family. The "fat" ones have normal height weight ratios (wife is 1 of 9). As I said, I had lunch with her 3 days before I went to see her in the hospital. While in the hospital the baby moved very much. But before then she says no movement. She is a trustworthy person and had no reason for denial. She was married but on birth control. no reason to expect a child. BTW she stopped the B.C. about 3 months into the pregnancy due to her suspicions. BUT...(as I said) All tests came back negative, even doctors tests. She was not in denial, she suspected, but was repeatedly told "You are not pregnant". The doctors weren't sure if she was full term when she went into labor. They stopped her labor with drugs and sent her from the small town hospital to a regional hospital were "specialists" determined she was full term and she gave birth four days later (because of the delay induced by drugs). As I said, again, her second child duplicated the same pattern again. So, for her, this is "normal" but not normal, obviously, for the rest of the world. Kent
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 12:12:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 12:28:24 PM EDT by Green_Canoe]
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Green_Canoe, Your sister is an idiot. Sgtar15
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Did you take the time to actually read and comprehend my post. One clue to me is I was speaking about my sister-in-law not my sister. Read my first post and the above post by me carefully. I realize you are very opinionated, but it's not nice to call people names when you don't know what you are talking about. On my honor, these are the facts as I understand them. Kent Edit to add: My intent was not to hi-jack this thread with my sister-in-laws birth expirience. But rather, to point out it is possible for somone to carry a baby to term without anyone knowing and not be a total fat ass.
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