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Posted: 5/5/2003 7:50:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 8:13:21 PM EDT by Sniper_408]
[rant] I for one believe it is, the only difference between a person who murders someone and a woman that has the procedure done or a doctor that preforms the procedure is that there is a law protecting those (the woman & doctor) [s]people[/s]beasts. I feel that abortion is used by irresponsible women [b](the women with few or no moral's, allowing themselves to be fucked durring their minstrual period by a man not using a condom knowing damn well she or he doesn't want/need a child)[/b] and men [b](the man, with few or no moral's who fucked the women without a condom knowing that there was a chance of conceiving a child knowing damn well he or she didn't want/need a child)[/b] who make the mistake of concieving a child and simply say; "oops, well we aren't ready so we'll just get rid of it." Then there are those women that have unprotected sex constanly and who get pregnant time and time again only to have several abortion's over the course of their lives. I know it is morally wrong to take another humans life, but find it extremly hard not to condone those that try to kill, or succed in killing abortion doctors considering the hundred's he/she will take durrig their life as an abortion doctor![>(!] [b]P.S. The above doesn't pertain to those women who were raped and were impregnated that way. The woman in that situation didn't consent to that act, and thereore IMHO, should be given the option for this one reason; A child that has been created out of hate and fear only to be brought into the world by a mother who really truly didn't want nor have the choice of wether to concieve you would be truly unfair to that child. The above post does however, include men who did use comdom's properly but still impregnated the woman due to a defective condom, ect. (that's the chance you take, therefore you the responsibility should be taken by the man regaurdless) and decide to have an abortion.[/b] [b]P.P.S. MODERATORS, I have not encouraged any illegal activity. I simply stated that I find it hard to [u]blame[/u] those that do commit such act's of violence. If you feel this topic violates FC please IM to inform me of the particular violation.[/b] Thanks Larry [soapbox][/rant]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:54:05 PM EDT
ibthdatil in before the heated debate and the inevitable lock
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 7:58:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:00:06 PM EDT
Problem with legalizing abortion for all the reasons the femanazis want it for.. Occur in something like less than .005 percent of the nearly 4 million abortions perfromed in America since Roe v Wade well I guess its what your definition of murder is.. According to the biblical view...imo...yes abortion is murder...of the most helpless Americans... It is said its the womans body so she gets to choose ...thats all well and good if we are talking about what kind of food she wants to eat...but even suicide is illegal..yet abortion is not..and its not her body that is being brutaly cut up ...burned with saline or torn apart before being ripped out of his or hers mom...its the baby's body... and a human who has no say so in its fate Someone should ask the baby ...if it would rather live or be killed.. When this question is posed to abortion survivors...every single one said they are glad to be alive ...and would have chosen to be alive...rather than aborted... Many abortion survivors are permentantly disabled or scared..yet the doctors who did this to them are free........seems to me they should have the same legal status as any other doctor...and be accountable for what they have done.. I belive God will hold them accountable even if America does not
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:00:16 PM EDT
No
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:04:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 8:05:46 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:05:02 PM EDT
It is simply none of the government's business and is a decision to be made by each according to their own faith.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:08:27 PM EDT
A child that has been created out of hate and fear only to be brought into the world by a mother who really truly didn't want nor have the choice of wether to concieve you would be truly unfair to that child.
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that is still murder though. why should that mother be allowed to murder her child? contradict yourself in your own statement. what if the mother had her tubes tied, father wore condomn. obviously they didn't want kids. but it is still possible. there are too many what ifs........who are you to decide when it is right and when it is wrong. and oh yeah.......IBTL
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:09:52 PM EDT
If you dont belive in abortion, then dont have one.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:17:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sixgun357: If you dont belive in abortion, then dont have one.
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If you don't want a child, don't spread your fucking legs. And that goes for guys, too. If you don't want a kid, keep your pecker in your pants. God gave you 2 hands, so you can switch when one gets tired.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:19:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 8:20:43 PM EDT by Sniper_408]
Let me just say that thus far the replies have been civilized. Please, lets keep it that way so this topic doesn't get locked. I still wish to hear from many of you![:)] this comment was supposed to be posted before the the previous comment. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:21:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 4:27:11 AM EDT by dave223]
Murder. No ifs, ands, or buts! Murder. *medical cases excluded IMO.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:23:26 PM EDT
The debate boils down to this: Is a fetus a human being with all attendant rights, and if not when does it achieve this status? (Because it obviously does at [i]some[/i] point.) If you're a fundamentalist Christian, the answer to that question is "at conception." If you're not, the answer may be considerably murkier. [i]Roe v. Wade[/i] drew the dividing line at the end of the first trimester, after which the decision had to be based on medical risk to the woman. From a pragmatic, logical standpoint I tend to agree with that decision. Remeber, abortion wasn't illegal everywhere in the U.S. at that time. A subsequent decision (whose name escapes me) later lowered the bar to include the woman's [i]mental[/i] health - IOW, if she just decided she didn't want to carry to term, abort. I [i]cannot[/i] agree with that idea. Medical science now allows us to keep earlier and earlier premature babies alive. Many born long before later-term abortion is still legal. I find later-term abortion morally reprehensible, but (though I do not [i]like[/i] the practice,) I cannot condemn first trimester abortion [i]per se.[/i] I don't like it as a primary method of birth control, but I also don't think it should be illegal. It shouldn't be an easy decision to make, but it should not be illegal. The march of science is going to have a major effect on this question, because I believe that before much longer we wil be able to fertilize and bring to term a human fetus in a labratory condition - other than as a source of the egg, no woman will be required. We'll be able to surgically extract a fetus and bring it to term [i]ex-utero[/i], too. [i]Then[/i] what? [i]Then[/i] when will a fetus be determined to be a human being with rights? [i]Then[/i] when will opening the petcock and draining all the fluids be "ending a laboratory experiment" and when will it be "killing a child?" It's great to stand there decrying abortion as murder when it isn't your 16 year-old daughter that's pregnant. Or you.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:24:13 PM EDT
I'm just gonna get a bowl of popcorn, & a soft chair,& sit back & watch this fight. It's gonna be a lulu! I voted yes, just for the record. And statistics show that women who have abortions, after becoming pregnant from a rape, are traumatized more than those who have the baby. Just some ammo for the fight. Searcher out crunch,crunch,crunch,.....sipppp.Crunch,crunch
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:26:12 PM EDT
If you don't want a child, don't spread your fucking legs. And that goes for guys, too. If you don't want a kid, keep your pecker in your pants. God gave you 2 hands, so you can switch when one gets tired.
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by that logic, everytime you have sex you should be trying to procreate. don't spill the seed, right? sex for enjoyment then is wrong. i have 2 kids. i don't want anymore. that doesn't mean i am going to stop having sex.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:28:55 PM EDT
hey its not as conservative as i thought around here.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:30:02 PM EDT
That's interesting SFT, do you have a link to that info? I am looking for any type of info on the subject and would be greatful if you could help info wise! [:D]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:31:50 PM EDT
Not only yes absolutely, but [b][red]YES, ABSOLUTELY![/red][/b]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:35:11 PM EDT
Why yes,just as war is legalized killing(murder)! Pass the popcorn SFT! Bob [:D]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:40:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:43:17 PM EDT
It's great to stand there decrying abortion as murder when it isn't your 16 year-old daughter that's pregnant. Or you.
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Adoption is an option. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:48:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kooter: by that logic, everytime you have sex you should be trying to procreate. don't spill the seed, right? sex for enjoyment then is wrong. i have 2 kids. i don't want anymore. that doesn't mean i am going to stop having sex.
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Get snipped, or talk to the wife about getting her tubes tied, or getting a hysterectomy, or whatever floats your boat. But the murder of an unborn child is still murder.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:49:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_408:
It's great to stand there decrying abortion as murder when it isn't your 16 year-old daughter that's pregnant. Or you.
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Adoption is an option. [:)]
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So is keeping it, and [i]so is abortion[/i]. Abortion [i]is legal[/i]. What we're discussing here is how people feel about it [i]morally[/i].
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:51:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:52:53 PM EDT
I predict 6 pages. Oh yeah, until it is externally viable, it isn't life. Life isn't a state of mind, its a physical ability to sustain itself. Does a life support VICTIM really LIVE? Does an unborn fetus have life until it can life externally from the mother? I'm not diving into this thread anymore, but its nice to see the poll slanted the way it is.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:56:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker:
Originally Posted By Sniper_408:
It's great to stand there decrying abortion as murder when it isn't your 16 year-old daughter that's pregnant. Or you.
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Adoption is an option. [:)]
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So is keeping it, and [i]so is abortion[/i]. Abortion [i]is legal[/i]. What we're discussing here is how people feel about it [i]morally[/i].
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Indeed, how people feel about it morally is the main discussion. The underlying point is that it abortiong [u][b]SHOULDN'T[/b][/u] be an [u][b]OPTION[/b][/u] (you use the word option so easily it's almost scary, but, once again, this thread is here for ARFCOMER's opinion's) at all.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:56:47 PM EDT
Get snipped, or talk to the wife about getting her tubes tied, or getting a hysterectomy, or whatever floats your boat. But the murder of an unborn child is still murder.
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none of those are 100% effective....well except a hysterectomy..... it is not necessarily murder. murder is the illegal killing of a person. since abortion is legal it is not murder.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 8:57:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: I predict 6 pages. Oh yeah, until it is externally viable, it isn't life. Life isn't a state of mind, its a physical ability to sustain itself. Does a life support VICTIM really LIVE? Does an unborn fetus have life until it can life externally from the mother?
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Balzac, read my first response. What happens when we can fertilize and bring to term a fetus [i]outside the womb?[/i] 'Cause it's gonna happen.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:05:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_408: The underlying point is that it abortiong [u]SHOULDN'T[/u] be an [u][b]OPTION[/b][/u] (you use the word option so easily it's almost scary, but, once again, this thread is here for ARFCOMER's opinion's) at all.
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Well, there we (obviously) disagree. And outside this board about half the population of the country disagrees with you. Even [i]when[/i] and [i]where[/i] abortion has been illegal, it has been practiced throughout recorded history. You [i]believe[/i] that a fertilized human egg is a human being. I don't.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:06:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 9:09:00 PM EDT by Sniper_408]
Originally Posted By Kooter:
Get snipped, or talk to the wife about getting her tubes tied, or getting a hysterectomy, or whatever floats your boat. But the murder of an unborn child is still murder.
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none of those are 100% effective....well except a hysterectomy..... it is not necessarily murder. murder is the illegal killing of a person. since abortion is legal it is not murder.
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No, it's not murder under the legal def. however morally speaking, to some people it is (wich is the point of this post, to find out what people's opinion's are). So you also think since Assault Weapons with evil characteristics have been banned that there is truly a danger in civ's owning them correct (since you think that because something becomes a law it's right for what it represents?)?
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:08:05 PM EDT
Abortion is murder. The only time I think it may not be wrong is in medical cases where the fetus is deformed or the mother is going to die without it. I am not man enough to form an opinion on if a woman should carry a child to term if it came about because of a rape. I couldn't even imagine.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:36:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 10:37:27 PM EDT by sherm8404]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:21:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Emoto: It is simply none of the government's business and is a decision to be made by each according to their own faith.
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According to my faith, Christians are immoral and should be killed, so it is none of the governments business. As long as I am deciding upon faith. The other argument I hate is that it is OK to abort until the child can survive independently from the mother. By that logic it is OK to abort until about the age of 10 or so. A two year old can't survive independent of the care of its mother. I just want to know at what point it doesn't become murder. The minute before birth? Ten minutes before? A week before? Three months before? Eight months before? At what point [i]does[/i] it become OK to kill the unborn child?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:27:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ratters:
Originally Posted By Emoto: It is simply none of the government's business and is a decision to be made by each according to their own faith.
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[red]According to my faith, Christians are immoral and should be killed,[/red] so it is none of the governments business. As long as I am deciding upon faith. The other argument I hate is that it is OK to abort until the child can survive independently from the mother. By that logic it is OK to abort until about the age of 10 or so. A two year old can't survive independent of the care of its mother. I just want to know at what point it doesn't become murder. The minute before birth? Ten minutes before? A week before? Three months before? Eight months before? At what point [i]does[/i] it become OK to kill the unborn child?
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[>:/] I take you have no Christians for friends.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:55:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ratters:
Originally Posted By Emoto: It is simply none of the government's business and is a decision to be made by each according to their own faith.
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According to my faith, Christians are immoral and should be killed, so it is none of the governments business. As long as I am deciding upon faith. The other argument I hate is that it is OK to abort until the child can survive independently from the mother. By that logic it is OK to abort until about the age of 10 or so. A two year old can't survive independent of the care of its mother. I just want to know at what point it doesn't become murder. The minute before birth? Ten minutes before? A week before? Three months before? Eight months before? At what point [i]does[/i] it become OK to kill the unborn child?
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Eeek! What's your faith.....erm religion?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:05:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: I predict 6 pages. Oh yeah, until it is externally viable, it isn't life. Life isn't a state of mind, its a physical ability to sustain itself. Does a life support VICTIM really LIVE? Does an unborn fetus have life until it can life externally from the mother? quote] Ha! That is the dumbest argument I have heard yet! Lets drop you buck naked in the artic and see how "externally viable" you are. LOL. Planerench out. LOL.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:14:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Planerench:
Originally Posted By Balzac72: I predict 6 pages. Oh yeah, until it is externally viable, it isn't life. Life isn't a state of mind, its a physical ability to sustain itself. Does a life support VICTIM really LIVE? Does an unborn fetus have life until it can life externally from the mother? quote] Ha! That is the dumbest argument I have heard yet! Lets drop you buck naked in the artic and see how "externally viable" you are. LOL. Planerench out. LOL.
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LOL, But Planerwrench, then you would have a.......Cold Member [lolabove]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:35:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Tastes great. IBTL. After all the years and years of posting and moderating here I've never seen one person who's had their mind changed with an Internet discussion. This kind of change comes from within.
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Well said.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:45:03 AM EDT
Nope, seems to be none of my bees wax.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:49:56 AM EDT
While it may seem like murder in the eyes of the bible thumping christians but that doesn't reflect the majority view in this country. That's the beauty of our system, the laws of our governance are determined by our people, and not by an extremist minority. If you want to live in a theocracy, I'm sure you'll have no problem getting a visa to Iran, Yemen or Saudi Arabia.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:50:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ratters:
Originally Posted By Emoto: It is simply none of the government's business and is a decision to be made by each according to their own faith.
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According to my faith, Christians are immoral and should be killed, so it is none of the governments business. As long as I am deciding upon faith.
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See there? You just made an excellent argument for why the abortion issue should [b]not[/b] be decided by the GOVERNMENT based on RELIGION. In other words, the world's various religions and faiths are not in agreement, so for the government to pick one would be wrong. We have too much government already. You seem to want more. I don't.
The other argument I hate is that it is OK to abort until the child can survive independently from the mother. By that logic it is OK to abort until about the age of 10 or so. A two year old can't survive independent of the care of its mother.
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You misunderstand what "survive independently" means.
I just want to know at what point it doesn't become murder. The minute before birth? Ten minutes before? A week before? Three months before? Eight months before? At what point [i]does[/i] it become OK to kill the unborn child?
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SCOTUS says somewhere around the first trimester, I believe.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:57:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen: While it may seem like murder in the eyes of the bible thumping christians but that doesn't reflect the majority view in this country. That's the beauty of our system, the laws of our governance are determined by our people, and not by an extremist minority. If you want to live in a theocracy, I'm sure you'll have no problem getting a visa to Iran, Yemen or Saudi Arabia.
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Indeed Phil, people that think this way are not the majority, however that said, it's really 50/50 on this issue so there is no minority/majority
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:59:23 AM EDT
so if abortion is murder, is masterbation considered reckless abandonment of a child? should all ja#ck offs be arrested?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:13:40 AM EDT
Do YOU feel abortion is murder?
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Fuck "feel"!! I prefer to THINK!!! "Feelings" are LIERS!!!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:21:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:23:30 AM EDT
Creating life... granting life... sustaining life... ending life. All are God's prerogative. Abortion allows man (woman) to play god. It amazes me to no end when I see liberal hippie freaks put more value on a tree or a fvcking farm animal than that of a human life. If there is a question of if the fetus is a human being, DO THE RESEARCH AND ANSWER THE QUESTION! I think a life may depend on it. Should abortion be illegal? No. [b]It should be incomprehensible. [/b] --LS
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:26:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: Hmm how about murdering an off duty police officer with a family that is guarding an abortion clinic as a side job to make ends meet? Does that fall into the "extremely hard to condone" category.
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The Biblical definition of Murder, is the taking of innocent life. Would it be murder to kill a NAZI guard at a death camp??? What's the moral difference between a death camp guard, and the one in your example?
I think you meant condemn by the way, though I wish you had meant condone. condone: To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure Oh and minstrel means: A medieval entertainer who traveled from place to place, especially to sing and recite poetry. Does this mean she sings when you bang her? Does a woman have no morals because she is having sex or because she is not using a condom?
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No, she has no morals, when she chose to murder the unborn because she and her mate did not prevent the pregnancy. Her mate also bears some responsibility.
"[b]allowing[/b] themselves to be fucked" Um, you really need to meet girls that are more fun if you think this is how it works... [;D]
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Agreed!!! [:D]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:29:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By longshot_va: Creating life... granting life... sustaining life... ending life. All are God's prerogative. Should abortion be illegal? No. [b]It should be incomprehensible. [/b] --LS
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with that thought, then going to a doctor to save your life should be illeagle too? afterall its gods will, doctors should not be able to sustain life.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:30:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_408: [rant] I for one believe it is, the only difference between a person who murders someone and a woman that has the procedure done or a doctor that preforms the procedure is that there is a law protecting those (the woman & doctor) [s]people[/s]beasts. I feel that abortion is used by irresponsible women [b](the women with few or no moral's, allowing themselves to be fucked [red]durring their minstrual period[/red] by a man not using a condom knowing damn well she or he doesn't want/need a child)[/b] and men [b](the man, with few or no moral's who fucked the women without a condom knowing that there was a chance of conceiving a child knowing damn well he or she didn't want/need a child)[/b] who make the mistake of concieving a child and simply say; "oops, well we aren't ready so we'll just get rid of it."
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And what's this?? A woman can't get pregnent during her menstration!!!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:35:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Emoto: It is simply none of the government's business and is a decision to be made by each according to their own faith.
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The murder of future tax payers IS a concern to govt. Murder has NOTHING to do with "faith"...
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:40:35 AM EDT
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